a little mythbusting about Roman Armor

[SD_Man]

Yep, mail gets pretty heavy when you just let it pile up like that ... *double zing*

[andrew881thebest]

Average hamata suit had 10-15kg. Segmentate armor had around 4-5kg... Hamata was 2-3x heavier... so, average legionary was carrying 15kg hamata, 10kg scutum, 2kg heavy and 1kg light pilum, 1kg helmet,1kg gladius, and his personal staff.. overall, around 30kg of weapons and armor. That is not that far off what today's soldiers are carrying around in Afghanistan, so i don't see why Roman soldier that was used to harsher conditions would not handle.

On my opinion that mail in the picture weights much more... I lift weights and I know how much 15 kg is. That mass of iron is at least 20 25 kg. Then his personal staff meant a lot in kg

[Archimonday]

probably that mail was for cavalry, so it could be heavy but mainly horse should carry it. I do not think the regular (fit, ok, but not "rambo-like") infantry man would carry that mail, then the heavy shield, that all the 30-40 kgs impedimenta while marching 30 miles a day. It would simply be inhuman. I think a modern athlete would have hard time doing that nowadays. And you must imagine that regular infantry man was just man of the folks, trained for some time, ok, but not an athlete.

Don't underestimate how far soldiers can go with heavy weight. I'm sometimes amazed by how much we sometimes carry and continue to do missions. It sucks, but we do it.

[andrew881thebest]

Don't underestimate how far soldiers can go with heavy weight. I'm sometimes amazed by how much we sometimes carry and continue to do missions. It sucks, but we do it.

I think that modern USA soldiers are 10/15 cm taller (maybe 180/185 cm) in average than normal Roman infantry soldier (around 170).... So you cannot compare equally the 2 groups.

[Tiwaz]

probably that mail was for cavalry, so it could be heavy but mainly horse should carry it. I do not think the regular (fit, ok, but not "rambo-like") infantry man would carry that mail, then the heavy shield, that all the 30-40 kgs impedimenta while marching 30 miles a day. It would simply be inhuman. I think a modern athlete would have hard time doing that nowadays. And you must imagine that regular infantry man was just man of the folks, trained for some time, ok, but not an athlete.

Average soldier would not have had shot of ever paying to have mail armour for huge part of history. That stuff cost a fortune when built properly.
Again people... We are not talking about modern day when wire is bought by meters from closest hardware store in nice, high quality. On Roman age, making wire to make rings was absurdly hard work, and that was after you had put lots of time and effort into making good quality iron to make it from. And you would need hundreds of meters of it for single suit.

[JaM]

I think that modern USA soldiers are 10/15 cm taller (maybe 180/185 cm) in average than normal Roman infantry soldier (around 170).... So you cannot compare equally the 2 groups.

lol, yeah, maybe in G.I Joe..

[andrew881thebest]

lol, yeah, maybe in G.I Joe..

I have been in USA and i had that impression watching at average young (white not hispanic/black) male, not to talk about marines i saw (not so many, ok) who looked like 185-190 cm on average and massive giants. Maybe just an impression.

[andrew881thebest]

Average soldier would not have had shot of ever paying to have mail armour for huge part of history. That stuff cost a fortune when built properly.
Again people... We are not talking about modern day when wire is bought by meters from closest hardware store in nice, high quality. On Roman age, making wire to make rings was absurdly hard work, and that was after you had put lots of time and effort into making good quality iron to make it from. And you would need hundreds of meters of it for single suit.

surely an hard work but someway they could fast it. Think at republican army which could put on field maybe 80000 men (punic wars, battle of Cannae, Roman "empire" limited to italian peninsula) mostly (3/5) equipped in mail (maybe just hastati did not wear it)...it was a time when they had lot of free labor with slaves and everyone of them could just be ordered to work all day long, with no problems of salary and pauses. They compensated the lack of modern machinery with the mass of slave labor, this in weaponsmith as well as in building all those magnificent buildings we still can see today in small part.
As for the guy who said that it was impossible for roman blacksmiths to make armors in big plates of iron, such as medieval ones, watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5b0n2gh21Zg

as for the lorica segmentata resistence, i just do not think that it was possible to stab or slash it so easily: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pniyFbvXMUI

[Archimonday]

I have been in USA and i had that impression watching at average young (white not hispanic/black) male, not to talk about marines i saw (not so many, ok) who looked like 185-190 cm on average and massive giants. Maybe just an impression.

The average soldier I see is about 165 - 175 cm tall, weighing between 66 and 82 Kgs. The few exceptions to that rule are gym enthusiasts, overweight soldiers, or really thin men weighing below 60 kg

[andrew881thebest]

The average soldier I see is about 165 - 175 cm tall, weighing between 66 and 82 Kgs. The few exceptions to that rule are gym enthusiasts, overweight soldiers, or really thin men weighing below 60 kg

do you live in USA?

[JaM]

surely an hard work but someway they could fast it. Think at republican army which could put on field maybe 80000 men (punic wars, battle of Cannae, Roman "empire" limited to italian peninsula) mostly (3/5) equipped in mail (maybe just hastati did not wear it)...it was a time when they had lot of free labor with slaves and everyone of them could just be ordered to work all day long, with no problems of salary and pauses. They compensated the lack of modern machinery with the mass of slave labor, this in weaponsmith as well as in building all those magnificent buildings we still can see today in small part.
As for the guy who said that it was impossible for roman blacksmiths to make armors in big plates of iron, such as medieval ones, watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5b0n2gh21Zg

as for the lorica segmentata resistence, i just do not think that it was possible to stab or slash it so easily: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pniyFbvXMUI

whole idea of "cheap" slave labor is a bit ridiculous.. Having a slave during Ancient Rome was not a cheap thing.. it can be compared to having a car today... its not like everybody could afford one. most of the time, only rich could, and it doesnt automatically mean that just because things were manufactured by slaves, their owner would sell the stuff cheap...


and to manufacture wire, or putting rivets together, that was not some sort of low skill work... on contrary, it required quite a lot of skill to make it right. at the other side, hammering the steel plate to the required shape, was much much simpler...

[Mjarr]

On my opinion that mail in the picture weights much more... I lift weights and I know how much 15 kg is. That mass of iron is at least 20 25 kg. Then his personal staff meant a lot in kg

25-30kg of extra weight (read = modern flak jacket and\or ceramic plates, and let's not forget all the extra crap one may have to wear, or for the sake of comparison old pieces of armour) properly distributed around your body does not suddenly drag you down to hungry man's marathon crawl as long as you're in reasonable or good shape, even if it obviously may impose some limits. Imagine you're the unlucky dude of say, LMG and few extra belts, flak jacket, helmet, vests, water, food, and let's say marching equipment - or hey, regular assault rifle, the rest of the shebang and maybe couple of LAWs. You may very well exceed weight of common armours back in the day you are effectively carrying as part of regular gear which may be expected to be worn today as standard equipment.

[Archimonday]

do you live in USA?

Yes, I'm a soldier myself.

[andrew881thebest]

whole idea of "cheap" slave labor is a bit ridiculous.. Having a slave during Ancient Rome was not a cheap thing.. it can be compared to having a car today... its not like everybody could afford one. most of the time, only rich could, and it doesnt automatically mean that just because things were manufactured by slaves, their owner would sell the stuff cheap...

slaves were few and precious in first republican time, when they were still italic prisoners, so they shared same "race", same lifestyle, tradition and maybe language; it was a time when slaves were treated not so differently from sons and wife from pater familias, who basically had his "propriety" (Mancipium in lathin) on them, exactely as on animals of the farm. After punic wars things changed dramatically, masses of eaastern slaves came into Rome, they became "cheap", or not so expansive as before, and less precious; they were not treated as members of the family, but just as manpower to use. Sometimes some romans established some sort of "friendship" with some of them, as you can imagine towards a person living costantly with you, but they were exceptions. Obviously the price of a slave changed according his ability, profession, age...some greek "teachers" even if slaves were treated with respect and received some money too. At the opposite the slaves in the country or those property of state and sent in mines or to make public buildings were treated more or less as animals.
When you bought a slave you could use him/her until the end of their days, and his sons too, so yes, slave labor was cheap, and this reflected on items' price....exactely as in China today, where price of job is very cheap (and not so far from being modern slaves) and so items are cheap. There were even slaves with particular abilities and surely some dedicated to weaponsmith and making of loricae. RIch romans had hundreds or thousands slaves, but an artisan or normal roman with a small enterprise could surely afford 1-2 or more slaves. It is maybe the most cruel side of roman civilization, if you think that slaves could be tortured to death just to confess his master's guilt or killed in most brutal way with no real reason, until late empire at least, or that it was normal and not immoral for a roman patrician to have some sexual slaves for their desires, and very often young children ("pueri delicati", or "delicious kids")...

[andrew881thebest]

Yes, I'm a soldier myself.

if what you say about average soldier is true, you are rather short, lol! are you sure you converted well into metrical system? 165 in italy is the minimum accepted to enter the army, but i think the average is around 180 cm (5 11)

[Mahgnus]

So, where would this legionary go to buy his bit of string or wire? I assume you mean metal string. There is no handy hardware store in Gaul that carries metal wire as a default part.

I didnt know this, good additional information to the topic...

Many people have this false assumption that wire was just there to grab from a spoon while actual manufacturing of resources was the most daunting task of making hamata.

Who has this assumption? I'm well aware of the process of drawing wire..

The section of my post that you quoted is meant to highlight the how easy it would be to repair mail vs other types of armors. Regardless of what ever material was used to close the hole, a professional army would've had a supply system for such things. Equipment breaks all the time, things are not discarded simply b/c they no have a hole in them. If the soldier for some reason didn't have access to a metal fastener of some sort, he could just as easily use a strip of leather. This is just being resourceful, a skill that all soldiers, from all periods of time have.

Look at the muscles which hold the weight and what is the weakest link. If weight rests on your fingers, then it is the muscles of your fingers because they have to take the weight fully. If weight can be held by larger muscles you can take it much better.

Sry but this is completely wrong. Try standing with a can of .50 cal ammo in one hand and see what starts to hurt first. For anyone who has ever worked a day in their life, your ''grip'' is the least of your worries when carrying weight. The flexors of the forearm, such as the Carpi Ulnaris and Digitorum Profundus will be literally bearing the brunt of the work. I'm not sure what your background is but its not A&P that much is for sure.

[Archimonday]

if what you say about average soldier is true, you are rather short, lol! are you sure you converted well into metrical system? 165 in italy is the minimum accepted to enter the army, but i think the average is around 180 cm (5 11)

I'm 69 inches tall. Thats 175 cm. Most dudes I work with are the same height. You'd be really surprised how different the generations after the one before me have changed. I remember being fresh out of Highschool and thinking to myself, "Why do all the new seniors look so small?"

There are tall guys yes, 6 feet and up, but they are usually extraordinarily thin. Or if they are bigger, they've spent tons of time in the Gym. I weigh 90 kg, but only because I've put on significant muscle mass since joining.

Roman military service no doubt would have had a similar effect on small men. They would get larger, perhaps in different ways than today, with modern calisthenics being the ground work of all physical fitness, but they would gain muscle mass regardless, even it was lean muscle mass. Soldiers probably would weigh a decent amount, but be short and thin. One guy I know is the same height as me, and weighs 104 kgs. Sounds overweight by all standards, but hes not, by any sense of the word.

Equipment is a strange beast. First putting it on is the most dreadful thing in the world. I remember two years ago next week, throwing on body armor and a ruck for the first time, an excess of 90 lbs of gear and them leading us off on our first march of only three miles. That was terrible. It sucked. However with things like armor, you eventually get used to it. Sometimes you will wear it for days straight in training, without ever taking it off, and damn near forget that you are wearing it entirely.

After ten miles with a 80 or 90 lb ruck you simply don't feel the weight anymore, your legs have little to no sensation left in them, and you are going on your bodies propetual motion. Its only when you stop that the full extent of the burden hits you, and thats in all terrain, rain, snow, uphill, downhill, wet, dry, cold, or warm. Fighting after a long march would definitely suck, that is a given, you would be exhausted, but as long as there was no large break between the time you arrived at the location you dropped gear, and the time you actually formed up for a battle of any kind, your body would never be given the chance to recognize it was tired. Then, add adrenaline to that mix, and despite having walked 10, maybe 20 miles, you'd still be able to work for hours without much problem.

The body is amazing at adapting itself to whatever conditions its under. Even if the Roman soldier was smaller than modern man, which undoubtedly he was, his ability to adapt would have been the same. Especially at an era in history where people were eating almost three times the amount of calories we consume today, and performing far more physical labor and their only means of transportation was often their own two feet. Modern man is spoiled by motor transportation and industry, they weren't.

[andrew881thebest]

I didnt know this, good additional information to the topic...



Who has this assumption? I'm well aware of the process of drawing wire..

The section of my post that you quoted is meant to highlight the how easy it would be to repair mail vs other types of armors. Regardless of what ever material was used to close the hole, a professional army would've had a supply system for such things. Equipment breaks all the time, things are not discarded simply b/c they no have a hole in them. If the soldier for some reason didn't have access to a metal fastener of some sort, he could just as easily use a strip of leather. This is just being resourceful, a skill that all soldiers, from all periods of time have.



Sry but this is completely wrong. Try standing with a can of .50 cal ammo in one hand and see what starts to hurt first. For anyone who has ever worked a day in their life, your ''grip'' is the least of your worries when carrying weight. The flexors of the forearm, such as the Carpi Ulnaris and Digitorum Profundus will be literally bearing the brunt of the work. I'm not sure what your background is but its not A&P that much is for sure.

this is true but fingers burn soon too, i can assure you, i am doing some manual labor in this period and i have to lift big weights, i feel that every day. More than muscolar fatigue it is where edges hit more often, if you wear gloves it helps a lot.

[JaM]

slaves were few and precious in first republican time, when they were still italic prisoners, so they shared same "race", same lifestyle, tradition and maybe language; it was a time when slaves were treated not so differently from sons and wife from pater familias, who basically had his "propriety" (Mancipium in lathin) on them, exactely as on animals of the farm. After punic wars things changed dramatically, masses of eaastern slaves came into Rome, they became "cheap", or not so expansive as before, and less precious; they were not treated as members of the family, but just as manpower to use. Sometimes some romans established some sort of "friendship" with some of them, as you can imagine towards a person living costantly with you, but they were exceptions. Obviously the price of a slave changed according his ability, profession, age...some greek "teachers" even if slaves were treated with respect and received some money too. At the opposite the slaves in the country or those property of state and sent in mines or to make public buildings were treated more or less as animals.
When you bought a slave you could use him/her until the end of their days, and his sons too, so yes, slave labor was cheap, and this reflected on items' price....exactely as in China today, where price of job is very cheap (and not so far from being modern slaves) and so items are cheap. There were even slaves with particular abilities and surely some dedicated to weaponsmith and making of loricae. RIch romans had hundreds or thousands slaves, but an artisan or normal roman with a small enterprise could surely afford 1-2 or more slaves. It is maybe the most cruel side of roman civilization, if you think that slaves could be tortured to death just to confess his master's guilt or killed in most brutal way with no real reason, until late empire at least, or that it was normal and not immoral for a roman patrician to have some sexual slaves for their desires, and very often young children ("pueri delicati", or "delicious kids")...

actually, slaves were never cheap.. average roman farmers were unable to afford them, which means they were unable to compete with large (slave operated) latifundias owned by aristocracy, they went bankrupt and extended the amount of poor population of Rome... this was the critical thing for Rome, as it relied on soldiers being drafted from farmer families, and sudden reduction of this "middle class" combined together with disasters in war against Teutones and Cimbri, meant Rome suddenly was short of men... this was the sole reason why Marius changed Republican army into professional force..


anyway, its all is not important. It is proven that making chainmail is more manpower intensive than making plate armor. it doesnt how much slave work cost, as same slave (weapon smith would only buy slaves who had some experience with smithing, and celtic slaves were quite good with it) could work on both tasks... therefore, if making chainmail was more work (and material) intensive, its just natural such armor would be more costly for customer.

[andrew881thebest]

I'm 69 inches tall. Thats 175 cm. Most dudes I work with are the same height. You'd be really surprised how different the generations after the one before me have changed. I remember being fresh out of Highschool and thinking to myself, "Why do all the new seniors look so small?"

There are tall guys yes, 6 feet and up, but they are usually extraordinarily thin. Or if they are bigger, they've spent tons of time in the Gym. I weigh 90 kg, but only because I've put on significant muscle mass since joining.

Roman military service no doubt would have had a similar effect on small men. They would get larger, perhaps in different ways than today, with modern calisthenics being the ground work of all physical fitness, but they would gain muscle mass regardless, even it was lean muscle mass. Soldiers probably would weigh a decent amount, but be short and thin. One guy I know is the same height as me, and weighs 104 kgs. Sounds overweight by all standards, but hes not, by any sense of the word.

Equipment is a strange beast. First putting it on is the most dreadful thing in the world. I remember two years ago next week, throwing on body armor and a ruck for the first time, an excess of 90 lbs of gear and them leading us off on our first march of only three miles. That was terrible. It sucked. However with things like armor, you eventually get used to it. Sometimes you will wear it for days straight in training, without ever taking it off, and damn near forget that you are wearing it entirely.

After ten miles with a 80 or 90 lb ruck you simply don't feel the weight anymore, your legs have little to no sensation left in them, and you are going on your bodies propetual motion. Its only when you stop that the full extent of the burden hits you, and thats in all terrain, rain, snow, uphill, downhill, wet, dry, cold, or warm. Fighting after a long march would definitely suck, that is a given, you would be exhausted, but as long as there was no large break between the time you arrived at the location you dropped gear, and the time you actually formed up for a battle of any kind, your body would never be given the chance to recognize it was tired. Then, add adrenaline to that mix, and despite having walked 10, maybe 20 miles, you'd still be able to work for hours without much problem.

The body is amazing at adapting itself to whatever conditions its under. Even if the Roman soldier was smaller than modern man, which undoubtedly he was, his ability to adapt would have been the same. Especially at an era in history where people were eating almost three times the amount of calories we consume today, and performing far more physical labor and their only means of transportation was often their own two feet. Modern man is spoiled by motor transportation and industry, they weren't.

yes it is more or less same habits between your training and that of a roman soldier, but with a difference. You need your muscles maybe just to carry weights (i am not an expert, but i am sure you have some cars too...?), while in a real fight what you are supposed to do is just to click a trigger and aim, so basically that does not need all that strenght and PHySICAL training (but surely psichological training). A roman soldier but someway each ancient soldier until 17-18th century needed strenght to survive in battle, combat in that time was hand to hand combat, you could see the eyes of the man you killed and smell his blood, not like today that you just press a button some miles away and you feel a heroe.