Is Rome Two salvageable?

[wangrin]

Not that easy with warscape campaign map and esf system.
Because before creating tools, you have to know how the game work and what you have to modify.
And speaking about campaign map for ETW/NTW, some fields of data are really hard to figure what they are.
Even if CA could release raw data, such as .max campaign map, it would be still hard to create a tool to edit the campaign map.

[Audacia]

I think this is absolutely absurd. Some of you are, essentially, bashing modders of the Warscape games by claiming that they lack initiative, effort, drive, whatever. That's preposterous. Derpy, are you trying to tell me that the modders of old simply had more drive, more initiative? Were they just better modders? I think that is a ridiculous notion, and an insult to anyone that mods Warscape. Clearly, the games, not the modders, are to be blamed for tools having not been created.

[m_1512]

Stepping between the long icy-dagger conversation regarding modding.

Ishan, about CA pretending to care, I think they do care, or I hope so for their sake. Because if all modders take your line of reasoning and simply jump ship, there will be no mods, big or small. That will escalate to the game being less re-playable over a period of time. A continuation of this will mean that the TW series will start its slow fade into obscurity and it might only be a matter of time before Sega has it shut down. Now I am aware that very precious few corporates would posses such foresight, but I sincerely hope that CA is one since this is a game series concept I like very much.

That said, I reckon it is bity early to be speculating notions of any sort before the summit and the release of the kit. That will be the time to see if the modern day man has learnt to learn from mistakes. The as Ishan said, it could be time to jump ships. From there we can go sink another ship.

Lastly, coming back to harp about the first point. From observations, it might be interesting to note that CA started out smart by allowing modding before TW could become a possible AoE. But the recent change of tactis seems to be really strange, and seems induced than natural. Strange because mods helped TW games gain popularity and suppressing them would in fact hurt the series in the long term.

[Derpy Hooves]

Wow, putting words in my mouth and answering own questions. Much wow.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the modding scene for Shogun is almost nonexistent. Medieval has a couple mods as far as I am aware. So there was not a modding scene to be nostalgic of like we have now. The situation of Warscape being different that the text file based Rome and Medieval II has discouraged many from making a serious effort.
Of course Warscape is harder to mod than Rome and Medieval II. Those two games had something like training wheels. Even I, terrible as I am at modding things, was able to create my own working map and effect some simple text changes. My two primary applications that I opened when I modded were Notepad and Gimp. Those two games were simple to mod, obviously to create works of art you had to spend more time making changes. And we probably have not even finished unlocking Medieval II's potential, I mean, what was it last year or two years ago, custom settlements was unlocked.
It is unlikely we will be able to see a modded campaign map of Empire and Napoleon in the near future considering the release of Shogun II and Rome II. Medieval II already had a prosperous modding scene by the time Empire Total War arrived. Remember, there had been two years between the release of Medieval II and Empire, which undoubtedly contributed to the modding scene's growth.

[Audacia]

Except you can create tools, it just takes effort and knowledge of the subject. It takes initiative. It takes the kind of person to say "You know what, instead of complaining about how CA is not making mod tools I'll make the tools myself."

Wow, putting words in my mouth and answering own questions. Much wow.

Not sure how I misconstrued what you said. I was saying that in order for modders to be successful with Warscape, they need tools. Tools are provided by CA. I was saying how the only tools that were available for Rome, for example, were not provided by CA, but created by fans. My point was that the new games are far more complex than the old ones and inhibit the creation of tools made by fans. You then said that tools can be made, but that there needs to be "initiative." Thus, I came to the conclusion that since there are very few tools (minus the PFM's that have been made) that have been made for Warscape games by fans, that you decided that those modders lacked initiative. Am I missing something, or did you just misspeak?

[Ishan]

You can't even put new sounds in this game or even change the main menu music lol. Has this changed btw? .wem format can be encoded but it seems most of these files have been locked by them.

[Derpy Hooves]

You can't even put new sounds in this game or even change the main menu music lol. Has this changed btw? .wem format can be encoded but it seems most of these files have been locked by them.

​Great War mod has different main menu music.

[Ishan]

​Great War mod has different main menu music.

I was talking about TWR2, mate. This format was introduced recently in the latest game. There was no reason to put that and then moreover block these files unless someone doesn't want you to fiddle with them.

[Derpy Hooves]

​It's only been three months.

[AngryTitusPullo]

You can't even put new sounds in this game or even change the main menu music lol. Has this changed btw? .wem format can be encoded but it seems most of these files have been locked by them.

That's because we do not have free converter from .wav or .mp3 to .wem right ?

Stepping between the long icy-dagger conversation regarding modding.

Ishan, about CA pretending to care, I think they do care, or I hope so for their sake. Because if all modders take your line of reasoning and simply jump ship, there will be no mods, big or small. That will escalate to the game being less re-playable over a period of time. A continuation of this will mean that the TW series will start its slow fade into obscurity and it might only be a matter of time before Sega has it shut down. Now I am aware that very precious few corporates would posses such foresight, but I sincerely hope that CA is one since this is a game series concept I like very much.

That said, I reckon it is bity early to be speculating notions of any sort before the summit and the release of the kit. That will be the time to see if the modern day man has learnt to learn from mistakes. The as Ishan said, it could be time to jump ships. From there we can go sink another ship.

Lastly, coming back to harp about the first point. From observations, it might be interesting to note that CA started out smart by allowing modding before TW could become a possible AoE. But the recent change of tactis seems to be really strange, and seems induced than natural. Strange because mods helped TW games gain popularity and suppressing them would in fact hurt the series in the long term.

If CA or SEGA really want to suppress modding they can simply make all their files hardcoded.

Not that easy with warscape campaign map and esf system.
Because before creating tools, you have to know how the game work and what you have to modify.
And speaking about campaign map for ETW/NTW, some fields of data are really hard to figure what they are.
Even if CA could release raw data, such as .max campaign map, it would be still hard to create a tool to edit the campaign map.

So it always comes to the 'difficult' part. From what I know there's very different meaning between can't do and difficult to do. Long time ago when we're discussing whether to port RTR to M2TW some people told me we can't change the buildings. If someone at that time told me it's difficult, but can be changed then I will probably port the mod.

Oh so you have absolutely have no friggin' idea about the commotion & feelings of despair that exists there?

Again, Ishan. What's does my moderating there got to do with modification discussions ? Should I take advice from people who from what I know have never even modded before ? Just because the game itself does not turn out to be what people expected, does it make modding it unworthy ?

[wangrin]

That's because we do not have free converter from .wav or .mp3 to .wem right ?

I don't think it's the problem as several software seems to be able to do this.
To what I've understand, TW:R2 files seems to be locked. This is far more annoying that having no "free converter".

You can have a look to this thread for more informations : Audio files .WEM

So it always comes to the 'difficult' part. From what I know there's very different meaning between can't do and difficult to do. Long time ago when we're discussing whether to port RTR to M2TW some people told me we can't change the buildings. If someone at that time told me it's difficult, but can be changed then I will probably port the mod.

I don't think that modding the campaign map for ETW/NTW is impossible, but it need some help from CA to understand how the map is created.
Assembly Kit materials could help to understand the process and how CA build map, butTW:S2 campaign map is not exactly the same than NTW/ETW (and I don't speak about geography, but structure).
I don't know if you have looked at .max file provided with Assembly Kit, but campaign map structure is quite complex.

Then, the problem is that tool use to create game data (eg. esf, etc.) "destroy" this structure, sending data in several different fields, but without tag to know what they are.
You have to open esf data using hexadecimal editor and figure out who is what.
Sometime, it's an awful nightmare.

And then, even if you understand data structure, you will need a programmer to create tool. And it seems we have only few peoples able to do this job here.


Other example : models_naval db tables.
Up until now, nobody successfully create new ships.
One of the reason is that we have no tool to edit the models_naval tables that are the most complex of all db tables.
They contain 3d data as well as text data, so, to be able to edit them we need :

• to understand data structure (what each data field means)
• to create one or two converter :
  models_naval tables <--(converter1)--> .xml <--(converter2)--> .fbx or .max
  .fbx and .max files would be use to edit 3d data
  .xml are an interesting file format, that can be easily reuse to create converters for other file formats or software. Moreover, logic.xml file is use by CA to store several 3d data.

We have begin to work on these tables here : [Resource] Examining models_naval tables and CA's ship model
But again, CA didn't provide enough data to figure how each fields are structured.
I particularly think about how placing guns.


To conclude this post, my feeling is :

• we are too few modders to be really efficient
• as we are few modders, we are lacking some specific competences (mostly programming)
• we need some more examples / raw materials from CA to figure out some missing data

Peoples cannot only blame modding community for "laziness".
When you hit a wall nearly each day when trying to mod this ****** warscape based game, you finally loose heart.
It's particularly true when CA could easily help by sending some documents about file formats or even only some raw materials to help.

And, of course, I don't speak for "missing"/"removed" features. Modders can not resurrect them if no mechanisms are left in the game engine and if scripting abilities are limited.


So, if peoples think that modders should do more, please, join us, learn and try.
Two brains are better to solve problems than a poor lonely one. And plentiful brains are better than two.

[AngryTitusPullo]

I don't think it's the problem as several software seems to be able to do this.
To what I've understand, TW:R2 files seems to be locked. This is far more annoying that having no "free converter".

You can have a look to this thread for more informations : Audio files .WEM

I don't think that modding the campaign map for ETW/NTW is impossible, but it need some help from CA to understand how the map is created.
Assembly Kit materials could help to understand the process and how CA build map, butTW:S2 campaign map is not exactly the same than NTW/ETW (and I don't speak about geography, but structure).
I don't know if you have looked at .max file provided with Assembly Kit, but campaign map structure is quite complex.

Then, the problem is that tool use to create game data (eg. esf, etc.) "destroy" this structure, sending data in several different fields, but without tag to know what they are.
You have to open esf data using hexadecimal editor and figure out who is what.
Sometime, it's an awful nightmare.

And then, even if you understand data structure, you will need a programmer to create tool. And it seems we have only few peoples able to do this job here.


Other example : models_naval db tables.
Up until now, nobody successfully create new ships.
One of the reason is that we have no tool to edit the models_naval tables that are the most complex of all db tables.
They contain 3d data as well as text data, so, to be able to edit them we need :

• to understand data structure (what each data field means)
• to create one or two converter :
  models_naval tables <--(converter1)--> .xml <--(converter2)--> .fbx or .max
  .fbx and .max files would be use to edit 3d data
  .xml are an interesting file format, that can be easily reuse to create converters for other file formats or software. Moreover, logic.xml file is use by CA to store several 3d data.

We have begin to work on these tables here : [Resource] Examining models_naval tables and CA's ship model
But again, CA didn't provide enough data to figure how each fields are structured.
I particularly think about how placing guns.


To conclude this post, my feeling is :

• we are too few modders to be really efficient
• as we are few modders, we are lacking some specific competences (mostly programming)
• we need some more examples / raw materials from CA to figure out some missing data

Peoples cannot only blame modding community for "laziness".
When you hit a wall nearly each day when trying to mod this ****** warscape based game, you finally loose heart.
It's particularly true when CA could easily help by sending some documents about file formats or even only some raw materials to help.

And, of course, I don't speak for "missing"/"removed" features. Modders can not resurrect them if no mechanisms are left in the game engine and if scripting abilities are limited.


So, if peoples think that modders should do more, please, join us, learn and try.
Two brains are better to solve problems than a poor lonely one. And plentiful brains are better than two.

Maybe we should take a different approach ? Concentrating on what can be modded rather than expecting help of things that we want to mod ?

[wangrin]

Following this way will be the death of modding I think.
This is accepting to limit moddability, to restrict creativity and finally, to accept to not see major overhaul mods again.
And modding is about creativity.

If CA really support modding, as they claim, we will have to discuss seriously about moddability and about what modders need.
This means to list what features we want to modify and what it means in term of game engine design, access to data, tools, etc.

But even if features are moddable, we will hit limits again.
For example, if people would like to create a Napoleonic mod based on TW:R2, they would have to create most of their animations... this is a very heavy and long work.
But this time, it will be not due to CA.


If we are limited to what we can mod without long researches and tools, then, to come back to the subject of the thread, I doubt that TW:R2 could be "salvageable".

[Ishan]

That's because we do not have free converter from .wav or .mp3 to .wem right ?

We already have that since this format isn't new and existing in games like walking dead or old games like deus ex.

If CA or SEGA really want to suppress modding they can simply make all their files hardcoded.

Actually hardcoded things are mostly related to exe which can be played with by legit means also using memory hooks. As long as the packs can be unpacked by programmers, people would just be able to edit simple things like textures. Or they can choose to lock DB tables which can kill modding altogether but they won't do that since modders help them by fixing their shoddy release which further helps them in releasing patches or taking ideas which they might find useful.

Again, Ishan. What's does my moderating there got to do with modification discussions ? Should I take advice from people who from what I know have never even modded before ? Just because the game itself does not turn out to be what people expected, does it make modding it unworthy ?

Umm this discussion is not solely about modification in a core sense but what modding is really about and what people really want because i sure as hell know that i have added plenty of features in stainless steel only because "those people" wanted it. It's always about what people want & what we, as modders, can deliver if and when something is possible or feasible.

[AngryTitusPullo]

If we are limited to what we can mod without long researches and tools, then, to come back to the subject of the thread, I doubt that TW:R2 could be "salvageable".

Well RTW and M2TW mods are also base on what can be modded too. Granted there seems to be a lot more but as long as I remember there are many things I want to do back then which is not possible but if I did stop because of something I can't or not possible to do then I probably have not mod at all.

I think if we (means anyone else, not me ) wants to mod Rome 2 then we have to look into different perspective. If we started by comparing with RTW then we better not to have mod this game altogether. I think we only need to see what can be modded and do it, then do others which was not possible if there's any support from CA. If we wait or hope for the support which may or may not come then it's better not to mod at all.

So my final say is Rome 2 salvageable, I say yes from what I have seen and do. In the end if I want to mod it then I will do it rather than wait for miracle to happen. That is if I want to do it of course. Probably not.

[wangrin]

If modding the game is limited to tweak db tables and retexturing units, I'm sorry but I can not consider this as worth to continue modding TW.
Because this is nearly the only thing we can do yet.

[AngryTitusPullo]

If modding the game is limited to tweak db tables and retexturing units, I'm sorry but I can not consider this as worth to continue modding TW.
Because this is nearly the only thing we can do yet.

Then it's not salvageable to you I guess. Too bad.

[wangrin]

It's not as "simple" as that.

My feeling about the game, right now, is not very good.
I consider the game as "empty", quickly boring due to what I feel as a lack of depth.
And this is something that is beyond modding range, I fear. Mostly because these features I miss are tied to the core game engine.

Maybe if CA open new LUA commands, will it be possible to do something, I don't know.
But I have to agree with .Mitch, LUA/LUAC scripting is of great importance for modding.


On the other hand, I suppose that CA will release tools similar to these released with previous Assembly Kit.
So, it would be likely possible to create new battlemaps and campaign maps, new models, etc.


So, at the moment it's a "Wait and See", hoping that the modding summit will give us some answers.

[ElvenKind]

Ah, good old Disc Locked Content proof, or, cut out content: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...5-Hidden-Units

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post13484964
Milking customers is sooo easy.

[Derpy Hooves]

Ah, good old Disc Locked Content proof, or, cut out content: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...5-Hidden-Units

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post13484964
Milking customers is sooo easy.

Yeah, that stuff is probably connected with Caesars campaign stuff. The recent patch added all that stuff.
Ah, good ole CA conspiracies.