Slowing recruitment for balance and Lore

[Macilrille]

Now I find that it is very hard to play according to Lore, and certainly the AI never does.

Part of this, I believe, is a too ready access to armies too fast.

I was thinking of doubling or quadrupling the replenishment rate of all units to allieviate this.

Has anybody tried that?

What are your thoughts?

It should be added that I play MOS, but the problem is the same in Vanilla AFAICR.

[Jmonstra]

I was also considering something like this, but also reducing unit recruitment slots down to 1-2 for cities and 2-3 for castles, making castle important military strongholds.

Might help cut down on the horrendous spam that plagues our campaigns.

[Anubis88]

Yeah kinda sucks a few years in game the political map already completly changes. I think that would be a nice addition

[Veteraan]

My thoughts (usually play MOS)

I'm a big fan of starting the game in a situation where as much Lore is present as possible. Ideally what would then follow is an interesting and fun experience playing the game, whilst still obeying "the rules of Lore".
IMHO that combination inevitably would lead to a great Tolkienesque experience, but sadly also to some very frustrating gaming.
The only reason why I play a game more than once (and sometimes much more than once, i.e. Total War games) is because of the quality of the gameplay. Superior graphics and believable accurate settings are all very nice, but to me they always come a far second to how well a game actually plays. I think that in TATW the victory conditions itself are already totally impossible to achieve when gameplay would be limited to what according to Lore is possible. The exception to this is perhaps playing Mordor, but in those circumstances playing Mordor would be a walkover.
I agree about the horrendous spam that tends to ruin many campaigns that started promising.

When playing MOS I would suggest waiting for the 1.62 patch before discussing this too much. As we all probably know, Stylix has made a lot of fixes and changes (one of them aimed at reducing stack spamming). The upgrade of the map will also be of influence on how the game plays.

[Flinn]

I was thinking of doubling or quadrupling the replenishment rate of all units to allieviate this.

What are your thoughts?

that looks a first good step, does the AI get units by missions too? I'm not into this business honestly, but as far as my knowledge goes Harad and Mordor are those who usually end up spamming really too much armies, harad in particular (especially if we consider lore), and with MOS 1.6.1 Isengard too seems to have good chances to start to overspam troops.

To those you could try to give a tune down in terms of replenishment, but the real issue here I think is that AI can't bankrupt, so you can only delay the inevitable I fear, and what about the player then? if your idea is to reduce replenishment for all factions that will keep the balance, but I'm convinced that only some factions are OP compared to lore.

I'll give a try to your solution if you wish, that would be a pleasure

[Macilrille]

All factions can stackspam and it is very much not Lore. I was thinking it would reduce the stackspam and the need to counter it- thus also not forcing the player to always build to replenish.

But what about our modders? What do they think?

[Khay]

I think that, at some point, you play Third Age TOTAL WAR, not Third Age "Oh We Got a Couple Skirmishes Here And There But Nothing Major". It's just a game Now get out and stab some orcs in the face ^^

[Macilrille]

Indeed, of course the game is right to stackspam us contrary to Lore and I am wrong to wish for more Lore in the game. Very constructive input.

Have a look here. Somebody else had an even worse situation, and though it is aggravated by MOS 1.6.1, the problem did exist in prior versions as well as in Vanilla.

I dunno about the rest of you guys, but after 600 battles in 100 turns, it gets kind of old. Kind of repetetive. And I loose interest in the campaign- especially with 6-800 more before the end.

[Veteraan]

Someone else had an even worse situation, and though it is aggravated by MOS 1.6.1, the problem did exist in prior versions as well as in Vanilla.

That someone would probably be me and the post was THIS one. The game is a 1.60 one, so I stated it is aggravated by MOS 1.6x.
I have good hopes that it won't be as bad for MOS 1.62 as I as I already posted earlier in this discussion:

When playing MOS I would suggest waiting for the 1.62 patch before discussing this too much. As we all probably know, Stylix has made a lot of fixes and changes (one of them aimed at reducing stack spamming). The upgrade of the map will also be of influence on how the game plays.

[Ngugi]

A matter of taste.


I presume to edit the script that give bonus money when their treasury goes to low to the AI faction could solve the situation.
Open campaign_script.txt in .../data/world/maps/campaign/imperial_campaign
Look for this and edit all factions, either how much minus the faction must go before getting a bonus and/or how much bonus money they get;

;########################### MONEY SCRIPT #############################
;############################ MONEY DEPT ###############################


monitor_event PreFactionTurnStart FactionType england
    and IsFactionAIControlled
    and Treasury < -1000
    
        add_money england 5000
    
end_monitor
(...)

Think it's save game compatible.

[Flinn]

rotfl, I said it was all about the money script!!

I dunno about the rest of you guys, but after 600 battles in 100 turns, it gets kind of old. Kind of repetetive. And I loose interest in the campaign- especially with 6-800 more before the end.

this, happens to me too usually, I never get to go over turn 150/160 in more than 20 different campaigns (with TATW and MOS), but this is a limitation of the game engine itself I believe; for me it's not such a big problem, as I susually do not pay attention to victory conditions but just try to enjoy the campaign

[Macilrille]

Well Veteraan, the problem was already there in Vanilla. I would think slowing recruitment for everybody would make expansion beyond the first rush slower and lead to a more Lore-friendly game, a slower game and a game that is- in the long run- more immersing and entertaining.

[Terrorgnom]

A matter of taste.


I presume to edit the script that give bonus money when their treasury goes to low to the AI faction could solve the situation.
Open campaign_script.txt in .../data/world/maps/campaign/imperial_campaign
Look for this and edit all factions, either how much minus the faction must go before getting a bonus and/or how much bonus money they get;

;########################### MONEY SCRIPT #############################
;############################ MONEY DEPT ###############################


monitor_event PreFactionTurnStart FactionType england
    and IsFactionAIControlled
    and Treasury < -1000
    
        add_money england 5000
    
end_monitor
(...)

Think it's save game compatible.

To a newbie in modding and such things the logical attempt would be to give just enaugh money make the treasury more or less zero.
by this the faction wouldn't go bancrupt, but also would have to loose some units before beeing able to recruit new ones.

The only problem would be if they need much more money per turn... but without losing an important (and therefore mostly garrisoned) settlement with huge income, while not losing any army that was not free of upkeep i can't imagine how this should happen.


Also... is it possible to make something like "if treasury under 5000 -> give 5000, if under 2000 give 2000" and so on, or directly give the amount of debts this faction is in?
don't know anything about what is possible, but not really giving any money, just release the dept would certainly do something against this problem.

dunno if other problems would occur, thought.

[Ngugi]

To a newbie in modding and such things the logical attempt would be to give just enaugh money make the treasury more or less zero.
by this the faction wouldn't go bancrupt, but also would have to loose some units before beeing able to recruit new ones.

The only problem would be if they need much more money per turn... but without losing an important (and therefore mostly garrisoned) settlement with huge income, while not losing any army that was not free of upkeep i can't imagine how this should happen.


Also... is it possible to make something like "if treasury under 5000 -> give 5000, if under 2000 give 2000" and so on, or directly give the amount of debts this faction is in?
don't know anything about what is possible, but not really giving any money, just release the dept would certainly do something against this problem.

dunno if other problems would occur, thought.

Yes it can be done, anyone can change the numbers in question at will; as I have not done so nor anyone else tested what the gameplay result will prove to be, it's really just to experiement on

[Veteraan]

Well Veteraan, the problem was already there in Vanilla. I would think slowing recruitment for everybody would make expansion beyond the first rush slower and lead to a more Lore-friendly game, a slower game and a game that is- in the long run- more immersing and entertaining.

Well, we two seem to have a different understanding about what aggravate means in the context used in above posts.

I am working on a new money script for MOS v1.6.2 which I hope will reduce stack spamming.

I will wait for this. Perhaps it's something similar to what Ngugi suggested.

[k/t]

What I have done in my 1.4.1 RR/RC Compilation install is add Fred Putz's Carl script and increase recruitment times:

Peasant Militia - 1 turn
Militia - 2 turns
Average - 3 turns
Superior - 4 turns
Elite - 6 turns
Exceptional - 7 turns
Special - 8 turns

Coupled with PB's special balancing of unit stats, sizes, replenishment rates (unlike crappy Vanilla stats and uniform unit sizes throughout) and recruit_priority_offsets, it works well.

[Terrorgnom]

Yes it can be done, anyone can change the numbers in question at will; as I have not done so nor anyone else tested what the gameplay result will prove to be, it's really just to experiement on

Uhm... any idea how to make the script kinda dynamic, so it only fills the money up to zero?
would need a check to get a treasury value, i think, and exactly that value inserted in the "add_money"-line...


it's kinda hard for me to write in english, and i have absolutely no idea how to script.
But i would really like to try this out. Stackspam should reduce greatly, and i wonder if there woud be negative effects from.

[Withwnar]

any idea how to make the script kinda dynamic, so it only fills the money up to zero?

Not possible. The scripting language is not good for that sort of thing. The best you could hope for is something like this...

monitor_event PreFactionTurnStart FactionType england
  and IsFactionAIControlled
  and Treasury < -1000
  add_money england 1000    
end_monitor

monitor_event PreFactionTurnStart FactionType england
  and IsFactionAIControlled
  and Treasury < -1000
  add_money england 1000    
end_monitor

monitor_event PreFactionTurnStart FactionType england
  and IsFactionAIControlled
  and Treasury < -1000
  add_money england 1000    
end_monitor

monitor_event PreFactionTurnStart FactionType england
  and IsFactionAIControlled
  and Treasury < -1000
  add_money england 1000    
end_monitor

monitor_event PreFactionTurnStart FactionType england
  and IsFactionAIControlled
  and Treasury < -1000
  add_money england 1000    
end_monitor

monitor_event PreFactionTurnStart FactionType england
  and IsFactionAIControlled
  and Treasury < -1000
  add_money england 1000    
end_monitor

At turn start: if they have less than -1000 then add 1000. If they still have less than -1000 then add 1000 ... and so on four more times (or however many you want). But it would never reach zero so maybe instead: if less than -500 add 1000 or whatever. That is just england; repeat for all other factions.

Anyway, the money bonus is not just for units - it is for helping them to afford construction as well, so they are not at a technological disadvantage against the player.

[k/t]

This script has already been done by Fred Putz, which I have mentioned above. It is called "Carl". It sets building costs to 1 dollar for the AI and it gives it a money boost when it goes bankrupt. The boost is just enough to get it out of debt but not enough to allow it to recruit more units which would cause it to go bankrupt again. It is, however, enough to allow it to construct buildings in its settlements, since each building only costs 1 dollar for the AI. This means that the AI has much more developed settlements than it would without Carl, so it can produce higher quality units and make more money.

[orclover5]

to be fair to the lore...the battle of dagorlad last days unto months....that was a single battle and battlefield that lasted months, found in between the two factions. That sounds like stack spam to me. In fact the general pattern of war in the silmarillien(sp?) was a surge by morgorth...and then a ton of skirmishes to clean up an area... then another surge, and a ton of skirmishes. This would take hundreds of years to complete... the good factions would siege for months, except for the battle of unumbered tears which was one poorly planned push. Sauron probably planned for a staged offensive...but was rushed by the revealing of the hobbits and aragorn... in fear that the ring would be used against him he lashed out with his half prepared forces.