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Thread: What kind of troops were on Roman ships?

  1. #1

    Default What kind of troops were on Roman ships?

    Hey, some of you may know my mod, well I want to do an overhaul of the naval roster, and I was wondering if any of you nerds knew more detailed information about the Roman Navy,
    eg. classes of ship used, the kind of troops who would've been on deck on ships and involved in boarding operations, where ships were built and the crews recruited

    P.S. I wish I could do a corvus, but I think that may be beyond us!

  2. #2

    Default Re: What kind of troops were on Roman ships?

    I believe it was just detachments of regular legionaries that were most often used. It wasn't like they had the Republic of Rome Marine Corps and they al lscream "Semper Fi devil dogs!" as they board enemy triremes and had unique camouflage.

  3. #3

    Default Re: What kind of troops were on Roman ships?

    Quote Originally Posted by daelin4 View Post
    I believe it was just detachments of regular legionaries that were most often used. It wasn't like they had the Republic of Rome Marine Corps and they al lscream "Semper Fi devil dogs!" as they board enemy triremes and had unique camouflage.
    So it would have been detachments of the named and numbered legions on board, the same units who fought on land?

  4. #4

    Default Re: What kind of troops were on Roman ships?

    What kind of troops were on Roman ships?

    Socii navales, that is rather a wide group than a specific unit. Bigger contributors were Greeks cities(Neapolis mostly) and coastal Etrurians(Populonia, Tarquinia, Caere, Vetulonia)

    Interesting stuff I've reads, the roman fleet made after the defeat of Drepana(249) was a completly hybrid thing, the money came from what historians calls the "campanian lobby"(capuan aristocrats integrated as Senators, very bellicists); the wood from in-land Latium, and the iron pieces and ships themselves from Populonia. I don't know about the crews of this new fleet, though.
    Notice that Populonia always provided these "iron pieces" even before the collapse of Zama(-202). So probably the Republic wasn't auto-sufficient to build an entire fleet of his own before the Third Punic Wars, or later.

    And Augustus created the Classiarii(-31?), that are legionnaries dedicated to serve as fighting sub-group of a warship's crew. I think internet and RomeI mods can provide inspiration to you about those ones.

  5. #5

    Default Re: What kind of troops were on Roman ships?

    Ships were manned and rowed by non-citizen troops often Phonecian, Greek or Egyptian rather than Italian. These men were regarded a lower status than Legionaires or Auxilia. Normal land units like Roman Legionaires borded ships as well as well as Auxilia and Foederetii to fight. Yes Rome had a Marine corp made up of normal naval personal known as the classiarius but it was probablly in small numbers and never as prestigous as the Legions or Auxilia. All fighting personell on ships were known as milites(can be Legion or Auxilia or classiarius) andclassiarius means naval personell that fought

  6. #6
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    Default Re: What kind of troops were on Roman ships?

    So it would have been detachments of the named and numbered legions on board, the same units who fought on land?
    VINC and Huang seem to know a lot more about this than me - but there were no named and numbered legions until the Marian reforms. Before that all legions were temporary and made up of conscripted citizens from all except the poorest classes of Roman citizens (there was a minimum property qualification to be required to do military service)

  7. #7

    Default Re: What kind of troops were on Roman ships?

    For example in Athenian Navy, all hoplites on board were not wearing any armor, they only protected themselves with a shield and helmet. Bronze Cuirass was considered a problematic for service at sea as it was expected soldiers might need to swim. Anyway, It was common that Marines on board usually had a lot of javelins on board, and used them as ships got close. Every ship also had a small detachment of archers.

    Back to Romans - Initially they as well used similar marine force of lightly armored infantry, equipped with javelins,bows and slings. Yet, when Romans managed to find undamaged Carthagian Quinquereme, they studied it and quickly build 100 new Quinqueremes by themselves. Larger ship allowed them to carry more men, yet, Carthaginians due to having more experienced rowers, were able to easily outmaneuver Roman ships in battle. Romans knew they cannot cope with them until they have more experienced crew, therefore they were searching how to turn this back to their advantage and developed Corvus. It allowed them to lock with the enemy ship before it was able to ram them, while own marines could engage the Carthaginian crew. Anyway they recognized that lightly armed marines would have hard time to overcome same number of Carthaginian marines, therefore they added detachment of legionaries on board who kept their heavier equipment on them. Together with corvus, they were able to storm the Carthaginian ships, and their crew were no match for them in close combat. Anyway, after destruction of Roman Fleet at the storm, Corvus was later abandoned, as it caused instability for ships in bad weather. Yet, due to constant training, at that time Roman rowers were becoming more and more skilled, so Roman ships were able to match Carthaginian crews in combat. and while detachment of Legionaries stayed as crew, they also dropped their armor, to move more freely (and able to swim)

    Personally, i think current Rome 2 crew system is very bad, it needs huge overhaul. There needs to be Marines introduced, as unarmored version of assault infantry (swordsmen, not spearmen) equipped with light javelins (with larger ammo count as these javelins could be stocked on board..) small detachment of archers could be represented by archer towers. Romans could get some specialist Quinquereme upgrades, with heavier marines(legionaries) instead of standard marines on board, but overall, marines should be quite uniform in their equipment, so we should not have any Triarii/Hoplites/Peltats crews but Marines on board...

  8. #8

    Default Re: What kind of troops were on Roman ships?

    JaM - are you aware of any evidence for Roman naval pikes during the Second Punic Wars? Plutarch in the Life of Marcellus implies they were distinct from 'normal' spears in use. There's a few fleeting references elsewhere to naval units being equipped with lengthened pikes too from prior to this date - there's a few passing references in some of the Greek epic poetry to what could well be considered as naval pikes too.

  9. #9

    Default Re: What kind of troops were on Roman ships?

    Nothing now, but i'm still reading few books about Ancient naval combat. Yet it would be not surprising for them to use short pikes. They were used in great effect during boarding actions during 17-19.century while short pike is not that hard to master.. in case of boarding fights, there is no much space, soldiers/marines would usually not have a shield with them anyway (especially if Corvus was no longer used it would be quite hard to jump//board the ship with 8-10kg scutum in hand..), so using a javelin in both hands as a provisional (boarding) pike would be not that unimaginable.

  10. #10

    Default Re: What kind of troops were on Roman ships?

    Here's the translation of the relevant passage. Plutarch, Life of Marcellus, 12.2.

    He did not, however, lay aside his military command, but having been declared proconsul, he returned to his army at Nola and proceeded to punish those who had espoused the cause of the Carthaginian. And when Hannibal came swiftly to their aid against him, and challenged him to a pitched battle, Marcellus declined an engagement; but as soon as his adversary had set the greater part of his army to plundering and was no longer expecting a battle, he led his forces out against him. He had distributed long spears used in naval combats among his infantry, and taught them to watch their opportunity and smite the Carthaginians at long range; these were not javelineers, but used short spears in hand-to‑hand fighting.
    On the presumption that Plutarch is correct, and obviously he may not be, it would imply that Roman naval tactics at that time at least did find a use for a long (relative to normal spears) pike. The Greek isn't really ambiguous enough to allow any other interpretation either. Just an interesting snippet which was brought to my mind when thinking of other things (it's one of the only specific references to the weapons used by the Carthaginian/Libyan (ie not Iberian etc) infantry).
    Last edited by Zeb77; December 06, 2013 at 04:18 PM.

  11. #11

    Default Re: What kind of troops were on Roman ships?

    Wow, interesting stuff i read here.

    Would it be possible to change the color of the roman navy? Because that is what i dislike about the navy currently, no difference to the units on the land. But the navy troops seemed to have different colors and symbols on their shields, blue and the trident for example, showing they belong on the ships.

  12. #12

    Default Re: What kind of troops were on Roman ships?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dunadd View Post
    VINC and Huang seem to know a lot more about this than me - but there were no named and numbered legions until the Marian reforms. Before that all legions were temporary and made up of conscripted citizens from all except the poorest classes of Roman citizens (there was a minimum property qualification to be required to do military service)
    Don't know, I don't think we have surviving accounts to draw from. Named and numbered legions didn't really appear until the time of Julius Caesar: before then legions came and went, and numbers recycled.

    Also if I have to guess, by the time we have accounts of specific legions the navy has decline in importance and the seas were already secure, and the role of marines was supplanted by less notable units like auxiliaries.

    But I am sure detachments of actual legionaries served aboard ships but we no longer have records of them.

  13. #13

    Default Re: What kind of troops were on Roman ships?

    Numbered legions most likely appeared with Marius reforms. Before, Legions were risen every campaign season from scratch, therefore their numbers recycled.

  14. #14

    Default Re: What kind of troops were on Roman ships?

    There were certainly numbered legions prior to Marius, but the numbers were of course much smaller because armies existed on a temporary basis; by the time of Marius legions were increasingly career-based and existed with practical perpetuity that provided conditions to allow the development of group identities, which were impossible during the periods of, say, the Punic wars, where legions were originally disbanded after campaign season, or increasingly by that period, existed up until the end of a conflict. Numbers were most likely recycled, this was certainly the case with the consular series (numbers I through IV reserved apparently) and most likely they didn't bother to kept detailed accounts on every Legio I that existed; if they did these did not survive. By the time of the war between Caesar and Pompey, there were overlaps of numbers, which probably reinforced the necessity of epithets; part of the politics regarding legitimization of one size was the use of "original" legionary numerals.

    I'm sure detachments of rear-echelon/ lesser-experienced legionaries were placed in ships, as combat against enemies were generally not large enough that required the sort of battlefield tactics and discipline to execute them that land battles required. If I had to guess, the odds of achieving glory, valour, and plunder was less than if one served in the land forces, and lent itself to a post aboard a ship to be less prestigious or glamorous; which may also have reduced the chance of written documents dealing on the matter. If it is mundane, it is understandable that few people bothered to keep detailed accounts on the matter.

    That, or they left that role to the numerous auxiliaries Rome could have levied upon her subjects.

  15. #15

    Default Re: What kind of troops were on Roman ships?

    "I'm sure detachments of rear-echelon/ lesser-experienced legionaries were placed in ships"
    How be sure of that? Are you meaning in imperial period?
    If its about the early times, there is no chance that the Socii Navales were 'lesser-experienced' or something. Each family member of the local oligarchy must provided at least one galley, or pay the half of a galley, the whole galley was equiped locally, with local crew of rowers, and the oligarchs themselves fighting as hoplites, their clientes fighting as archers, or javeliners, or as axemen(not sure for lucanian and bruttian Socii Navales what secondary soldiers they had, but Hoplites for sure they had).

    Ah if you could the depictions of Cuma/Siracusa's and etruscan hoplites in Gli Eserciti Etruschi.(about Syracuse-Populonia war, syracusan victory)
    Perhaps in imperial era the Classiarii were craps, but not Socii Navales. And these dudes were the basis of Roman fleet in the most important marine struggles, longtime before the reform of Augustus. While cities like Capua must provided contingents of heavy cavalry and skilled skirmishers, what was asked to vassal coastal cities was a ready to fight warfleet.

  16. #16

    Default Re: What kind of troops were on Roman ships?

    answer is: slaves

  17. #17

    Default Re: What kind of troops were on Roman ships?

    no. Romans, or Greeks or Persians or practically anybody with standing navy, they never used slaves as oarsman. Oarsman were specialized and highly skilled men, It took several months to train one, and several years to train excellent one.. it were highly trained oarsmen who gave Carthage ability to dominate seas, and it was extensive training program Rome adopted which allowed them to took that control from them... yet in crisis, sometimes slaves got the opportunity to serve as oarsmen, but it was their choice and if they accepted, they were automatically freed...

  18. #18

    Default Re: What kind of troops were on Roman ships?

    By the way, I tried to find visual sources about Classiarii, not that much a common thread.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Fluvial one(very late)

    Illustration by Steve Noon, "THE TRIUMVIRAL REINFORCEMENTS ARE ANNIHILATED AT SEA" for the book "PHILIPPI 42 BC - The death of the Roman Republic".
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    From a RI mod
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    I don't say these sources should be followed, just to add something to the discussion.
    Last edited by Ishan; December 28, 2013 at 04:46 PM. Reason: Osprey pics removed

  19. #19
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    Default Re: What kind of troops were on Roman ships?

    IIRC the Romans pretty much abandoned most of their navy force after Spain, Egypt and Anatolia were conquered. There really was no need for a navy under the conquered Mediterranean unless to combat pirates or for transporting troops across the sea.

  20. #20

    Default Re: What kind of troops were on Roman ships?

    Navy was still need to transport supplies through the Rhine into Germania and Britan. Also it provided a good defense on the Tigris and Euphrates against the Persians.

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