Jesus and Muhammad

[War lord]

Well he was all peace and love and turning the other cheek.If we all lived like good Christians and obeyed the 10 commandments we would have a wonderfull world here with no war.

Read the Bible, neither of those statements are true.

[Aeneas Veneratio]

You shall have no other gods before Me.
There is no reason to believe in gods and believing one is better than the rest of potential gods are silly. It adds nothing good to our society.

“You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.
What a bloody narcissist, this adds nothing to our society.

You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
Oh my god, get over yourself! Nothing beneficiary to be found here.

“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
Why? This adds nothing to our society.

Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
What, if your father beats you and your mother just stands idly by and watch?

You shall not murder.
Covered by laws before and after the 10 commandments, but it's true that that does provide something beneficiary to society.

You shall not commit adultery.
Archaic thinking to punish adultery. I don't condone it, but I'm not willing to go all psycho/Christian over it.

You shall not steal.
Covered by laws before and after the 10 commandments.

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
Covered by laws before and after the 10 commandments.

You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.
Upside to coveting another man's house is, that you become more hardworking to obtain the same things or more, that thinking adds to the wealth of the society. The easy path is already punishable by secular laws.

Either the commandments are covered by secular laws before and after their writing, or they are pointless and adds nothing to our society.

[Himster]

So 3 out of the 10 commandments are useful to society? Well 30% is a fail on any test I've ever heard of.

[John ''True Grit'' Wayne]

If we actually never killed then we would have no war.
And turning the other cheek and saying forgive them father for they know not what they do after being tortured by Roman soldiers is the single most forgiving act in human history.
If people did not steal or commit adultery then society would be better off.Giving thy neighbour peace and respect and love would create a utopian society.The same as a imaginary heaven.

[War lord]

10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Not exactly mister love and peace.

More like Jim Jones.

[John ''True Grit'' Wayne]

Warlord You are taking that out of context and not showing the rest of the quote.Misrepresenting what Jesus said.
Basics will soon be here so tell us what's what.

[Elfdude]

If we actually never killed then we would have no war.

No one is assaulting this perspective, what they might assault is that christians don't do this. In fact they seem to do it more than their counterparts with islam coming in as a close second. For a religion which makes such a big deal about not killing it's more than a little problematic that it perpetuates more religious killings than literally any other belief system. I'm talking totals here, fascism has a ways to go before it outpaces that.

And turning the other cheek and saying forgive them father for they know not what they do after being tortured by Roman soldiers is the single most forgiving act in human history.

How is it forgiving? You realize he was literally put on the earth to correct a problem in which god made sin hereditary. Honestly jesus should have forgiven god because what occurred (according to christian theology) must have occurred to fix god's mistake. Furthermore the Romans themselves opposed Jesus' crucifixion. It was the pharisees who forced it through in a classic case of give us what we want or we'll riot. Furthermore I find it hard to believe that any torture Jesus went through being contrasted with ultimate peace and happiness by god's side was really much of a matyrdom at all. What's much more forgiving in my mind is how survivors of child trafficking still manage to be religious after spending their entire existences in environments Jesus never even had to dream of.

If people did not steal or commit adultery then society would be better off.Giving thy neighbour peace and respect and love would create a utopian society.The same as a imaginary heaven.

The problem with this is our capitalistic society is based on stealing as christian theology defines it. Adultery is defined as any sex act that isn't in marriage between a man and a woman in the missionary position in christian theology. While I might agree with the christian interpretation of the first I certainly don't in the second.

Warlord You are taking that out of context and not showing the rest of the quote.Misrepresenting what Jesus said.
Basics will soon be here so tell us what's what.

Because basics quotes himself especially when what he believes contradicts the bible. I would suggest you talk to a christian who knows what they're talking about rather than someone who's convinced themselves that they're a prophet of god.

[Papay]

No one is assaulting this perspective, what they might assault is that christians don't do this. In fact they seem to do it more than their counterparts with islam coming in as a close second. For a religion which makes such a big deal about not killing it's more than a little problematic that it perpetuates more religious killings than literally any other belief system. I'm talking totals here, fascism has a ways to go before it outpaces that.

Christians did some crimes in middle ages. Your atheist brethren did much more crimes in the modern era. Just study what happened during the french revolution. Atheists banned the catholic church(your water dream). Then they beheaded 40.000 people. Because secularism prevailed, we glorified these acts as "french revolution" and we celebrate them, at least the French do. By keep repeating about the horrible Christian crimes you show the complete ignorance of European history. I recommend you before studying the religious wars of the 15th-16th centuries to study first what was the attitude of the atheists in the 20th century towards Christians in countries like Spain, Mexico and USSR

[Elfdude]

Christians did some crimes in middle ages. Your atheist brethren did much more crimes in the modern era.

Right they did what in the name of atheism? I can't think of really anything. What Russia did was in the name of nationality and fascism and of course the Russian orthodox church was largely left untouched. What hitler did was in the name of positive christianity, racism and fascism couched in socialism. What mao did was in the name of fascism and nationality.

Just study what happened during the french revolution. Atheists banned the catholic church(your water dream). Then they beheaded 40.000 people.

By banning the catholic church you mean instituted religious freedom ok. If you're referring to the dechristianization of france the catholic church was the largest land owner in france and charged the french peasantry which was 95% catholic huge taxes to live on that land. The church defended the nobility of france and the nobility defended the church resulting in the obvious connection between the two when the revolution started. However the real controversy came between the non-jurring priests and those who agreed with the french accord. I'm not sure where you get the 40,000 number from.

Because secularism prevailed, we glorified these acts as "french revolution" and we celebrate them, at least the French do. By keep repeating about the horrible Christian crimes you show the complete ignorance of European history.

Blah blah blah, you're wrong.

I recommend you before studying the religious wars of the 15th-16th centuries to study first what was the attitude of the atheists in the 20th century towards Christians in countries like Spain, Mexico and USSR

Your words are meaningless until you can properly assert that it was atheism which directly caused these issues. It was not and you have provided no evidence that it was.

[Papay]

Right they did what in the name of atheism? I can't think of really anything. What Russia did was in the name of nationality and fascism and of course the Russian orthodox church was largely left untouched. What hitler did was in the name of positive christianity, racism and fascism couched in socialism. What mao did was in the name of fascism and nationality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_...itant_Atheists

League of the militant atheist. Created By Stalin in order to ridicule Christians. During the 1930s when the persecution was at its highest the regime managed through repression to reduce the number of Orthodox Churches in the Russian Republic from 29,584 to less than 500. Thousands of priests were executed and imprisoned. Now that in your opinion is letting the Russian orthodox church untouched. Wow. I am really terrorized in the idea that you might become a leader one day
As for your assertion that Hitler was a "positive Christian" this is LOL. Hitler despised Christian morals and he planned to make a new pagan-type religion.

By banning the catholic church you mean instituted religious freedom ok. If you're referring to the dechristianization of france the catholic church was the largest land owner in france and charged the french peasantry which was 95% catholic huge taxes to live on that land. The church defended the nobility of france and the nobility defended the church resulting in the obvious connection between the two when the revolution started. However the real controversy came between the non-jurring priests and those who agreed with the french accord. I'm not sure where you get the 40,000 number from.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dechris...nch_Revolution

If you mean religious freedom, the laws of the revolutionaries that made it "legal" for the state to execute priests just because they were priests then yes they were the most liberated nation in the world

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reign_of_Terror

During the reign of terror when hardcore atheists took the power, around 40.000 people were executed. Many of them were falsely accused and a number of them was associated with the Catholic Church

Blah blah blah, you're wrong.

Ask the French who celebrate that day of the Bastille, whats their opinion about the French revolution

Your words are meaningless until you can properly assert that it was atheism which directly caused these issues. It was not and you have provided no evidence that it was.

It was hatred for organized religion. It is the same thing

[Elfdude]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_...itant_Atheists

League of the militant atheist. Created By Stalin in order to ridicule Christians. During the 1930s when the persecution was at its highest the regime managed through repression to reduce the number of Orthodox Churches in the Russian Republic from 29,584 to less than 500. Thousands of priests were executed and imprisoned. Now that in your opinion is letting the Russian orthodox church untouched. Wow. I am really terrorized in the idea that you might become a leader one day

Stalin actually opposed the extremest atheist factions publicly so that's strange. While he did think the right approach of letting religion die on it's own was ineffective he thought that obliterating Christianity which he considered inherently a part of Russian nationality also threatened the Russian identity.

As for your assertion that Hitler was a "positive Christian" this is LOL. Hitler despised Christian morals and he planned to make a new pagan-type religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity

Including in governing documents of the Nazi party. That's strange.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dechris...nch_Revolution

If you mean religious freedom, the laws of the revolutionaries that made it "legal" for the state to execute priests just because they were priests then yes they were the most liberated nation in the world

That in no way is an accurate reflection of what happened. Read your own links please.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reign_of_Terror

During the reign of terror when hardcore atheists took the power, around 40.000 people were executed. Many of them were falsely accused and a number of them was associated with the Catholic Church

And I explained why that was, nothing to do with atheists but rather to do with catholic taxation of the poor and french nationalism.

Ask the French who celebrate that day of the Bastille, whats their opinion about the French revolution

The french revolution wasn't atheistic.

It was hatred for organized religion. It is the same thing

No it's not. It wasn't even hatred for organized religion but resentment of the poor classes unable to feed themselves continuously for over a century getting fed up with having everything they had taken from them by rome and the rest taken by their kings. You would be pissed too if your house was owned by the catholic church and they charged you more than half your daily wages to live there by the grace of god. Again before and AFTER the revolution france was 95% catholic. So your idea that religion was destroyed is utterly false. What happened was french got fed up with religious theocracies and their excesses.

[Papay]

Stalin actually opposed the extremest atheist factions publicly so that's strange. While he did think the right approach of letting religion die on it's own was ineffective he thought that obliterating Christianity which he considered inherently a part of Russian nationality also threatened the Russian identity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USSR_an...2%80%931941%29

During the 1920s-1930s almost all of the clergy was shot or sent to labor camps. The churches re opened in 1941 when the Nazis invaded USSR because Stalin didnt wanted to have internal enemies. According to the link only in 1937 85.000 priests were shot dead. Good he opposed atheism. Imagine if he was really an atheist how many priests he would have shot

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity

Including in governing documents of the Nazi party. That's strange.

What is strange is that you fail completely on history. The Nazis wanted to create a Pagan religion. All the leaders of the Nazi party were anti-Christian in their philosophy. Some of them like Rozenberg and Himmler openly supported the idea of creating a new Pagan religion. Their swastika sign on their flag had pagan origins. Hitler disliked the fact that the Bible was so heavily influenced by the jews and wanted to purge it from any type of jewish reference. There is absolutely no connection between the Nazi philosophy that had its origins on the scientific racism that was promoted during the 19th century and early 20th century, and Christianity

That in no way is an accurate reflection of what happened. Read your own links please.

The programme of dechristianization waged against Catholicism, and eventually against all forms of Christianity, included:^[1][2][3]

• confiscation of Church lands, which were to be the security for the new Assignat currency
• removal of statues, plates and other iconography from places of worship
• destruction of crosses, bells and other external signs of worship
• the institution of revolutionary and civic cults, including the Cult of Reason and subsequently the Cult of the Supreme Being,
• the enactment of a law on October 21, 1793 making all nonjuring priests and all persons who harboured them liable to death on sight.

This is religious freedom according to Elfdude

And I explained why that was, nothing to do with atheists but rather to do with catholic taxation of the poor and french nationalism.

The executions of thousands of people including many hundreds priests had nothing to do with taxation and the poor. It was pure terror. Besides many poor revolted later to support the church leading to

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_the_Vend%C3%A9e

No it's not. It wasn't even hatred for organized religion but resentment of the poor classes unable to feed themselves continuously for over a century getting fed up with having everything they had taken from them by rome and the rest taken by their kings. You would be pissed too if your house was owned by the catholic church and they charged you more than half your daily wages to live there by the grace of god. Again before and AFTER the revolution france was 95% catholic. So your idea that religion was destroyed is utterly false. What happened was french got fed up with religious theocracies and their excesses.

A minority of atheists tried to impose their will to France and failed. The same happened in Mexico during the 1920s when, after the Mexican revolution of 1911-1917 a couple of atheist presidents emerged and started suppressing brutally the catholic clergy. See

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%81lvaro_Obreg%C3%B3n
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutarco_El%C3%ADas_Calles

The same happened is Spain in 1936 when after the start of the civil war, anarchists killed thousands of priests in Spain because the were "class enemies"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror_%28Spain%29

I guess atheistic websites dont promote this history(which is modern history contrary to the Crusades which is ancient history)

[John ''True Grit'' Wayne]

When the Pope sent men to do a Crusade it went against Jesus message and that is one reason I do not respect Popes.Even though I was brought up to almost worship Popes.How can a Pope represent God when they go against Jesus teachings.

I do not think Jesus was a son of God just that he was bringing a good hippy message of peace.It inspired poor people back then.Mother Teresa and Gandhi were the same type of good people.
But Jesus may have stolen most of his ideas from others.If it were not for the Roman leader who decided to make it the official religion of Rome then it may have died out.


So now we or should I say I have discovered the way Jesus and Muhammad are thought of in other religions.I always wondered why we were not told about other religions in school and just got Jesus rammed down our necks daily.It would be better to teach all religions so we can pick and choose instead of saying we are right they are wrong.

[Nesimî]

No need to teach any of them really, you can get everything yourself pretty easily.

[Aeneas Veneratio]

Christians did some crimes in middle ages. Your atheist brethren did much more crimes in the modern era. Just study what happened during the french revolution. Atheists banned the catholic church(your water dream). Then they beheaded 40.000 people. Because secularism prevailed, we glorified these acts as "french revolution" and we celebrate them, at least the French do. By keep repeating about the horrible Christian crimes you show the complete ignorance of European history. I recommend you before studying the religious wars of the 15th-16th centuries to study first what was the attitude of the atheists in the 20th century towards Christians in countries like Spain, Mexico and USSR

The Church in France supported the Royalty and the Nobility, it was a classic example of "the friends of my enemy are also my enemies". They weren't anti-Christianity, they just resented the French Church, who supported their oppressors and taxed the citizens harshly for living on Church owned land.

The same happened in Mexico during the 1920s when, after the Mexican revolution of 1911-1917 a couple of atheist presidents emerged and started suppressing brutally the catholic clergy.

Mexico, a country which is only Christian today due to the Spanish Catholics brutal suppression of the "heathen" Natives, has its Catholic clergy brutally suppressed by atheists... Seems to be a case of karma bitting the Catholics in the ass.

As for Nazi Germany... Gott mit uns! You saying they wanted to make a Pagan/Christian hybrid is not going to put any guilt upon us atheists. The Communists wanted to make Communism the new thing that binded the people together, instead of some religion. Real atheists don't want to substitute a religion with another lie, so Communists aren't exactly real atheists.

The same happened is Spain in 1936 when after the start of the civil war, anarchists killed thousands of priests in Spain because the were "class enemies"

An incident that has more to do with wealth than belief. Anarchists, mainly poor people or idealists against capitalism, would obviously resent people, who represent a wealthy organization, like the Church (The individual wealth of each priest is not important, as the focus would be on the accumulated wealth of the entire Church).

Your religion has so much bad history, Jesuits for example, and you want to start a debate about secterian oppression?

[Lazarus]

Christians did some crimes in middle ages.

GROSS OVERSIMPLIFICATION.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan

Hi, meet the KKK - those valiant Christian terrorists fighting those filthy communists, Jews and our greatest enemy - the dark skins. Lets see... first wave founded in 1865... well, that's not the middle ages. Hmmm. What about the second wave, in 1915? Nope. That's not the middle ages either and of course, to the surprise of absolutely nobody, 1946 isn't the middle ages either. Looks like your Christian brothers have been scum of the Earth for a lot longer then you think. But again, who's really surprised?

Something I'd also like to point out is how glad I am that Christians lost the governmental authority to utilize industrialized weapons of killing. If those sociopaths were in control and had access to gas chambers, bar codes and atomic weapons the result would make Hitler blush and tell them to cool down.

the enactment of a law on October 21, 1793 making all nonjuring priests and all persons who harboured them liable to death on sight.

You need to weed out the ones who are going to fight to bring the old system back. Otherwise you end up like Britain and have people turned in to masks by trying to blow up famous buildings. That is absolutely religious freedom. They're free to be Catholic. They're not free to think God owns France and its people like slaves though.

The executions of thousands of people including many hundreds priests had nothing to do with taxation and the poor.

No, it was exactly about the poor being abused by kings and priests.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_the_Vend%C3%A9e

"Nonjuring priests were exiled or imprisoned" - looks like they were pretty lenient on them, considering the law.

"Nearly all purchases of land were bourgeois, very few peasants benefited" - as we see here, the revolutionaries when given power started abusing it like literally every revolution ever. So, here's your spark for the counter revolution. Nothing so pointless or absurd as god or churches.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror_%28Spain%29

Ironic really, seeings as it's the Catholics who stirred up all that trouble. So Catholics killed a bunch of Catholics. I'm not seeing how this supports your argument at all. I guess those Christian websites don't bother reading their own sources, but then why would they. The name sounds good.

[SomaaTheLion]

If we actually never killed then we would have no war.
And turning the other cheek and saying forgive them father for they know not what they do after being tortured by Roman soldiers is the single most forgiving act in human history.

Actually, Muhammad peace be upon him did something similar after conquering Mecca:

The people assembled at the Kaaba, and Muhammad delivered the following address:"There is no God but Allah. He has no associate. He has made good His promise that He held to his bondman and helped him and defeated all the confederates. Bear in mind that every claim of privilege, whether that of blood or property is abolished except that of the custody of the Ka'aba and of supplying water to the pilgrims. Bear in mind that for any one who is slain the blood money is a hundred camels. People of Quraish, surely God has abolished from you all pride of the time of ignorance and all pride in your ancestry, because all men are descended from Adam, and Adam was made of clay."Then Muhammad turning to the people said:
"O Quraish, what do you think of the treatment that I should accord you?"
And they said, "Mercy, O Prophet of Allah. We expect nothing but good from you."

Thereupon Muhammad declared:
"I speak to you in the same words as Yūsuf spoke to his brothers. This day there is no reproof against you; Go your way, for you are free."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conques...ecca#Aftermath

This is remarkable because of the injustice, violence and oppression Muhammad peace be upon him and Muslims had to suffer from prior to the immigration to Medinah.

[Papay]

The Church in France supported the Royalty and the Nobility, it was a classic example of "the friends of my enemy are also my enemies". They weren't anti-Christianity, they just resented the French Church, who supported their oppressors and taxed the citizens harshly for living on Church owned land.

Actually the revolutionaries were against anything that had to do with the ancient regime(meaning they made instantly many enemies). No wonder why the Bourbon dynasty was restored, even for a short time after the French revolution.The majority of the French people wanted reforms not complete revolution. A minority of radicals took power and tried to re shape France completely and failed. I am saying this because the idea that the Catholic church was despised by the peasants in France is false. Yes the Catholic church had a big fortune, just like the nobility but it also had many supporters particularly in the countryside who revolted against the radicals. The idea that anyone who has big fortune must be decapitated is dangerous especially for our capitalist system were the 300 richest people in the world have more wealth compared to the 12 poorest nations in the world.

Mexico, a country which is only Christian today due to the Spanish Catholics brutal suppression of the "heathen" Natives, has its Catholic clergy brutally suppressed by atheists... Seems to be a case of karma bitting the Catholics in the ass.

Mexico was largely catholic during the 1920s. No natives were repressed by the church(on the contrary church traditionally took the side of indigenous communities). I guess with your logic you support the expalsion of all white people from Americas, Australia, South Africa etc. Learning history is something, using history to justify todays crimes is something else.

As for Nazi Germany... Gott mit uns! You saying they wanted to make a Pagan/Christian hybrid is not going to put any guilt upon us atheists. The Communists wanted to make Communism the new thing that binded the people together, instead of some religion. Real atheists don't want to substitute a religion with another lie, so Communists aren't exactly real atheists.


An incident that has more to do with wealth than belief. Anarchists, mainly poor people or idealists against capitalism, would obviously resent people, who represent a wealthy organization, like the Church (The individual wealth of each priest is not important, as the focus would be on the accumulated wealth of the entire Church).

Your religion has so much bad history, Jesuits for example, and you want to start a debate about secterian oppression?

Regarding to Nazi Germany i didint blamed atheists. It was a respond to ElfDude who claimed that, somehow, Nazi ideology and Christianity are connected. Because you are poor, that does not justify automatically a murder. When the anarchists were killing Catholic clergy, they killed it in the same manner someone kills during sectarian violence. In my mind he is the enemy and must be eliminated. Nothing to do with how poor or rich is someone. The anarchists saw the clergy as class enemy that must be eliminated to impose their paradise

Lazarus. Ku Klux Klan was a far right organization. Claiming that Breyvic shot dead 80 people in the name of Jesus, well thats oversimplification

[Aeneas Veneratio]

Mexico was largely catholic during the 1920s. No natives were repressed by the church(on the contrary church traditionally took the side of indigenous communities). I guess with your logic you support the expalsion of all white people from Americas, Australia, South Africa etc. Learning history is something, using history to justify todays crimes is something else.

Well, with that in mind, the 1920s are ancient history and can't be used in an argument about modern oppression. Nazi Germany, the French Revolution and the Spanish Civil War are also ancient history aswell. So, in regards to the last decade (modern history, right?) the Catholics have abused children, allowed thousands to die due to their unwarranted ban on contraception and covered up their abuses of children...

Learning history is something, using history to justify todays crimes is something else.

Why then do you persist on misinterpreting historical events to fit with your anti-atheism cause?

[ShADoW]

Who would win a boxing match between the two?