Units

[Siena72]

About the archers (capital from Marienburg fireplace - XIIIc "Teuton fighting pagans"):
http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/4...lbork049zb.jpg
http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/6...lbork053nq.jpg
http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/7...lbork060bh.jpg
Who do you think left those arrowheads arround and in baltic castles (and only very few throwing spearheads)?

You need to be very careful with Dlugosh chonicle because it is highly loaded against Jagello (even modern Pole historicans highly doubt the source). Moreover it is written much more later than Battle of Grunwald took place. There are better sources than this one.

well, that guy could be Ruthenian archer - he does look dressed differently then the rest - and he has long hair
Also, do you see the last guy who has 2 spears for some reason - I would guess he is preparing to throw them
Also - the first still alive pagan is also fighting with two spears
Regarding arrowheads in castles - they again could be left by Ruthenian archers fighting on Lithuanian side, or archers firing from outside in.

And regarding Dlugosh - I am aware of his subjectiveness regarding Lithuanian rulers, but in the case of throwing spears detail - that has nothing to do with Jogaila or Vytautas.

[Ezellor]

ok, you've convinced me. (and I've found ruthenian archers mentioned in 1305)

[DearLord]

well, that guy could be Ruthenian archer - he does look dressed differently then the rest - and he has long hair

Ruthenian archer in lithuanian army in XIIIc?? r u sure?
First bows in the europe origin about 30K-40K BC, so why do you think lithuanians r different?
About tactics: what you will chose when you defending the castle: javelin or bow? what you will chose when you riding enemy territory: javelin or bow?
About 10m this is totally nonsense, if i have bow, my advantage is manoeuvre and range, thats means i will newer let my enemy to b so close! Especialy in woods. In plains foot archers can mount horses. In other hand, you always can have bow and javelin.

[Herkus]

Another piece of fine art by MADTAO:

[sovijus]

Ruthenian archer in lithuanian army in XIIIc?? r u sure?
First bows in the europe origin about 30K-40K BC, so why do you think lithuanians r different?
About tactics: what you will chose when you defending the castle: javelin or bow? what you will chose when you riding enemy territory: javelin or bow?
About 10m this is totally nonsense, if i have bow, my advantage is manoeuvre and range, thats means i will newer let my enemy to b so close! Especialy in woods. In plains foot archers can mount horses. In other hand, you always can have bow and javelin.

I would guess that by the end of XIII c. Grand Duchy was wealthy and strong enough to afford ruthenian mercenaries, or maybe they were brought by some eastern vassal, or as allies.. it's not impossible. The real question here is not "Did lithuanians use bow in their wars?" (i'm sure they did, to some extent), but rather "Could lithuanians field large, professional masses of archers?" that would translate into specific unit in game terms (a la longbowmen, ruthenian archers). I don't think i saw any proof of that, spears (javelins), swords, axes were primary weapons for lithuanians, bow always was a suplementary weapon (as opposed to, lets say, large rus archer contingents in steppes). And it was a suplementary weapon for a reason, which leads to another your statement - yes, the advanteges of bow are manoeuvre and range. Somehow the "manoeuvre" and "woods" doesn't stick together, but maybe thats just me... but then the "range" part is also a moot argument - basicly at large range bows are very innefective in heavy forested area and you need to be closer to the enemy... but then it leads to another reasoning

In close quarters, it is more useful to have to be able to use shield and a heavier weapon, than have to use both hands for bow and arrow.

and don't get me started on mounted archers shooting from a bow standing on foot and riding a horse are two entirely different things (you could stand stationary and shoot, then ride a bit backwards, then stop and shoot again if you're being chased, but thats only useful against foot melee formations), effective mounted archers come only from the "natural" riders, nomad cultures and that's a universal thing...

[Herkus]

btw is there specific type of Lithuanian sword ?

[gladiatort]

not realy, in early medieval times they used lost swords after battles, so they used both german and all others.
also made swords by themselves, but they were not strong becouse of bad iron

[Ezellor]

ONLY ENGLISH.... sorry for beeing too pointy here, but rules are rules: Giurza (Lithuanian part of the post was deleted)
I highly recomend you to read one of most objective books about 1st half 14c.: "Lithuanian Ascending. A Pagan Empire within East Central Europe 1295-1345"

About the swords: there are lots of contracts where lithuanians buy western weapons. Moreover, there are many archeological sources that lithuanians used similar to damascus technology to make swords. Just say one simple word and you will understand what I am talking about: "Kala-vijas" (Kalti vijas. Kas žino kokiu principu "veikia" damasko technika supras labiau.)

[Lithy]

Aš aišku atsiprašau, bet susidaro įspūdis kad nežinot apie kokią (įskaitant ir kalibrą) valstybę jūs šnekat vyrai...
I highly recomend you to read one of most objective books about 1st half 14c.: "Lithuanian Ascending. A Pagan Empire within East Central Europe 1295-1345"

About the swords: there are lots of contracts where lithuanians buy western weapons. Moreover, there are many archeological sources that lithuanians used similar to damascus technology to make swords. Just say one simple word and you will understand what I am talking about: "Kala-vijas" (Kalti vijas. Kas žino kokiu principu "veikia" damasko technika supras labiau.)

Supras.

Please this is international part of forum, a bit more respect to our brothers Latvians and our most welcome quests could be done if we all use English language here. If anybody wants to talk in LT please see: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=56919

[sovijus]

Just couldn't hold back, as I find this statement hilarious even despite the weird grammar.

yeah, sometimes history might be hilarious but the fact is, between 1297 - 1313 AD there was a constant lithuanian garrison in Riga. Duke Vytenis was supporting Riga and archbishop in their internal conflict against Livonian branch of the Teutonic Order.

[Siena72]

yeah, sometimes history might be hilarious but the fact is, between 1297 - 1313 AD there was a constant lithuanian garrison in Riga. Duke Vytenis was supporting Riga and archbishop in their internal conflict against Livonian branch of the Teutonic Order.

hey , Lithuanians also garrisoned Novgorod for a while

[Giurza]

post are beeing deleted because they are off topics... like last two... sorry but this place is for UNIT talk ONLY

[sovijus]

about the naming of units - I see that most of them are quite generic: lithuanian archer, lithuanian nobles etc. maybe you could come up with something more original at least to some units? and I have one suggestion... how about 'Vytis' for some cavalary unit? I admit, I don't have enough info on this, but maybe it's not completely ahistorical?

[Ezellor]

Vytis is purely historical unit name. It refers as rider, and usualy mentioned as Duke's rider.

I have thought my version of lithuanian (baltic?) cavalry units (because I've finaly installed the game):

1. Peasant horsemen(could use throwing spears and some other cheap weapon. light armour or no no armour at all, fast)
2. Raider cavalry(Could use throwing spears and axe/sword) have light
armour, e.g. leather lamelar, hides etc. Fast.)
3. Regular cavalry (Better quality armour and weapons than Raider cavalry)
4. Vytis (Could have medium or heavy armour, sword)
5. Rikis (Noble cavalry. Heavy armour, spear, sword)

Lithuanians (balts?) could also have special feature, like christians have crusade. It could be called Jotis. Only cavalry units could be allowed to join jotis, and it could be called upon christian/orthodox occupied pagan (not less than 50% of pagans) province.
What do you think?

P.s.: I was cursing as hell when I saw how they made Lithuania in the game.

[Lebedis]

Vytis is purely historical unit name. It refers as rider, and usualy mentioned as Duke's rider.

I have thought my version of lithuanian (baltic?) cavalry units (because I've finaly installed the game):

1. Peasant horsemen(could use throwing spears and some other cheap weapon. light armour or no no armour at all, fast)
2. Raider cavalry(Could use throwing spears and axe/sword) have light
armour, e.g. leather lamelar, hides etc. Fast.)
3. Regular cavalry (Better quality armour and weapons than Raider cavalry)
4. Vytis (Could have medium or heavy armour, sword)
5. Rikis (Noble cavalry. Heavy armour, spear, sword)

Lithuanians (balts?) could also have special feature, like christians have crusade. It could be called Jotis. Only cavalry units could be allowed to join jotis, and it could be called upon christian/orthodox occupied pagan (not less than 50% of pagans) province.
What do you think?

P.s.: I was cursing as hell when I saw how they made Lithuania in the game.

Jotis ? Something like Crusade or Jihad... cool never knew pagans had this...

[Herkus]

Vytis is purely historical unit name. It refers as rider, and usualy mentioned as Duke's rider.

I have thought my version of lithuanian (baltic?) cavalry units (because I've finaly installed the game):

1. Peasant horsemen(could use throwing spears and some other cheap weapon. light armour or no no armour at all, fast)
2. Raider cavalry(Could use throwing spears and axe/sword) have light
armour, e.g. leather lamelar, hides etc. Fast.)
3. Regular cavalry (Better quality armour and weapons than Raider cavalry)
4. Vytis (Could have medium or heavy armour, sword)
5. Rikis (Noble cavalry. Heavy armour, spear, sword)

Lithuanians (balts?) could also have special feature, like christians have crusade. It could be called Jotis. Only cavalry units could be allowed to join jotis, and it could be called upon christian/orthodox occupied pagan (not less than 50% of pagans) province.
What do you think?

P.s.: I was cursing as hell when I saw how they made Lithuania in the game.

I think that we could merge Raider and Regular cavalry into one cavalry type, because there is no need for such variation. You have just installed game, check the armour and weapon upgrade feature. In this way you can have 2 different units from one.
The same goes also for merging Vytis and Rikis, though Rikis could be left as special cavalry type only for Lithuanian family member bodyguard.

Jotis? Haven't heard this one. Any examples?
Though what I think would be more realistic is that - playing with Lithuania faction, you won't be able to convert conquered catholic or orthodox provinces to paganism. Paganism will be special resource available only in Baltics.

[Ezellor]

Word "Jotis" is often mentioned in war songs and other folklore. It means riding group that goes to the battle and it attaches more and more riders on the way to it. Rikis is a warrior not of the noble birth, but trusted by duke to rule defensive structures (casltes, guard posts) and call people t arms (in the region they are asigned to).

Herkus: Could you improve my cavalry list in MTW2 way?

[Ringeck]

Ezellor, do you have any more baltic 13th-14th century pictures? Those fireplace figures were very interesting. What is their exact providence and method of dating?

I wonder a bit about all the fur in MADTAO's drawings. Would fur really be worn to that extent by lithuanian warriors? For me, it conjures the genero-barbarian look so typical of the worse Osprey scandinavian books...but then again, I might be mistaken.

[Herkus]

Ezellor, do you have any more baltic 13th-14th century pictures? Those fireplace figures were very interesting. What is their exact providence and method of dating?

I wonder a bit about all the fur in MADTAO's drawings. Would fur really be worn to that extent by lithuanian warriors? For me, it conjures the genero-barbarian look so typical of the worse Osprey scandinavian books...but then again, I might be mistaken.

Afaik those fireplace figures from Marienburg castle dates around 1st half of XIV century. No one knows who are those pagan warriors - Prussians or Lithuanians.
Well that fur thing is probably winter outfit.
Are Osprey books about Scandinavian armies (I have both medieval 1100-1300 and 1300 -1500) of low quality?



To everyone. Here is a drawing of XIV century Lithuanian troops made by Russian artist. Apart from weird faces, flag and shield paintings looks pretty decent.
What do you think of this picture?

[Ezellor]

I have that book (Kulikov 1380) and I know that artist and his other works. His oppinion is mostly unhistorical (too much nonense-type armour), but technique of the drawings is nice.

Characters:
1. is the best character in this picture. He is what I imagine Lithuanian noble. Looks pretty much like a western noble, and that makes sense. Although I would change horse armour a bit.

2. Strange type of lamelar, and helmet. Give him other helmet and normal lamelar and he is ok of mid-late XIVc.

3. Same with this one

4. That one is ok for 1st half - mid. XIVc.

5.: Some fantasy parts some histrocal parts, overall - total nonsense.

6.: It is ok for XIIIc infantry. Or late XIVc. dude trying to be retro .

7.: Ok exept helmet. It could be kettle hat, or some other infantry helmet.