Units

[Giurza]

this thread is for units... unit upgrades, discussion on units ... everything about units.

edit>
ok... I just browsed thru our early works, collecting all data on units... I should spend some time reflecting on them, and then I will produce a complete timeline for our mod ith units in it... this should line up thing a litle bit
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oh yes I just got myself an idea about something very special about Lithuania in medievals
Lithuanians had tremendous troubles in garissoning their castles. that is why Teutonic order, and Livonian order succeded in surviving there all those years. this could be portrayed BY - not having any militia units ith no upkeep.
let me explain - in the cities you should not be able to recruit any units at all... or very limited and no militia (contrary to those western counterparts) which does not have an upkeep. what do you think of that?

[MADTAO]

Lithuanian noble 1000-1300 .AD


About unit recruting ...Mid price ,high unkeep ?

[vikrant]

best of luck for ur mod
and if u guys want u can have hidden forums
where only developers of ur mod can get into
by using a password ..

[Kasetuh]

Afaik project about this place/timeframe is already started for RTW and will be continued on M2TW, its name is Baltic Crusades, and leaded by Herkus... Idea is not do by yourself only but cowork in united project.

Good luck anyway, Snake =)

[Giurza]

please... read the thread title... it is ONLY for unit discussion, reviewing etc... don't spam with anything else...
khmmm even if it is done with best intent...

[Lithy]

Am i understand it correctly no images here?

Let me explain - in the cities you should not be able to recruit any units at all... or very limited and no militia (contrary to those western counterparts) which does not have an upkeep. what do you think of that?

didnt get it

[Giurza]

Am i understand it correctly no images here?
didnt get it

images yes... everything about UNITS post here
as to that about militia... I'll take from the start. in IGN review of Sicily faction, there is a mention that part of militia (townsfolk) can be recruited and kept within city (or castle, but in both cases a limited number) without any upkeep, i.e. you don't have to pay for those units each turn. those garrisoning becomes much easier for the player. and opposed to that I propose that we don't do that kind of militia or any units with low or nonegsitant upkeep. (this should depict the difficulties lithuanians had in keeping garrisons within castles.

e.g. when Vytautas (after tannenberg, Zalgirio battle) marched on to Marienburg... he was in full strenght to sack it, BUT he knew he didn't have the resoursec (eiter human nor monetar) to keep a garrison in such a big castle-city... possible to call it even citadel...

[Lithy]

For a later periods (16th c.) some images, hope it will inspire some creative works:
These are real amour examples of Lithuanian noblemen and their attributes:
(Don’t share these images very broad)
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...e_2/No-JR1.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...e_2/No-JR2.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...e_2/No-HR3.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...e_2/No-HR4.jpg

[Herkus]

e.g. when Vytautas (after tannenberg, Zalgirio battle) marched on to Marienburg... he was in full strenght to sack it, BUT he knew he didn't have the resoursec (eiter human nor monetar) to keep a garrison in such a big castle-city... possible to call it even citadel...

I think that Lithuanians and Poles lacked infantry force to take Marienburg. You just can't put noble warriors on the front lines when storming castle.

[Giurza]

so here is the preliminary timeline for FOOT units for Lithuania mod. it should be in attachement. please post your opinion

[Herkus]

so here is the preliminary timeline for FOOT units for Lithuania mod. it should be in attachement. please post your opinion

Very nice indeed.
I would suggest to make spesicif infantry unit for Samogitians. Because in my opinion their infantry played major role in battles like Saule, Durbe, Skouda. Also if I am not mistaken they had their own infantry flag in GD army.
Othervise everything is very good, except that all tribes arent included there.

[Giurza]

Very nice indeed.
I would suggest to make spesicif infantry unit for Samogitians. Because in my opinion their infantry played major role in battles like Saule, Durbe, Skouda. Also if I am not mistaken they had their own infantry flag in GD army.
Othervise everything is very good, except that all tribes arent included there.

I am so totaly for it. so this adds to our unit list. let's have this one final foot unit discussed

[Lithy]

We missing one important unit type -clubman. I and Herkus discussed this type a bit and i believe it should be in. we even can update clubs for later periods.

UPDATE: Mine suggestion firstly about arrangement of info; we already have very nice drawings, so I suggest to Giurza (because he opened first message in this particular thread) to lineup all units which are already drawn in first message. It will help other user to find and to valuate them more quickly when scrolling down all threads; and the first message should be updated all the time, when new valuable info appliers. I think the same procedure should be applied in other threads too.
Talking about units and particularly about late period, it will be awkward if we do not have proper units with proper plate amour.

[Kovas]

And there I put some lithuanian soldiers of XIII and XIV centuries:
http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/8...elisldkma7.jpg
http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/2...ininkaiyo4.jpg

[Siena72]

this should depict the difficulties lithuanians had in keeping garrisons within castles.

e.g. when Vytautas (after tannenberg, Zalgirio battle) marched on to Marienburg... he was in full strenght to sack it, BUT he knew he didn't have the resoursec (eiter human nor monetar) to keep a garrison in such a big castle-city... possible to call it even citadel...

Lithuanians did keep garnizons in castles - they placed garnizons in castles that they took frm others too. Lithuanians garnizoned Riga for a while, and they had garnizon as far as Novgorod (for a little while).
Also, Lithuanians were stuborn defenders - just to mention defence of Kaunas castle, or Pilenai.

I woud not say that Lithuanians had trouble with garnizoning castles. Their real trouble was with taking castles - at least in the early period. If you look at battle history - on open field Lithuanians have won more often than not, while they were not that successful in sieges.

Regarding Marienburg:
Vytautas and Jogaila did not have equipment to siege such castle as Marienburg. Also, Vytautas did not want Jogaila to take it. He realized that he will need Order to counterweight Polish ambitions.

We missing one important unit type -clubman. I and Herkus discussed this type a bit and i believe it should be in. we even can update clubs for later periods.

you probably mean - maceman.
lithuanians used maces quite a bit - especialy those that did not have swords. It was easy to notice how useful maces are when beating on a metal encrusted crusader heads Also, properly made - they have a good range.

[MADTAO]

Secod early Lithuanian Noble.So those two can represent noble lithuanian equipment list .

[Herkus]

Skaisti

[Kovas]

It's great! Do you paint this pictures??? Because they are very good

[sovijus]

hi there all :] nice to see some real work in this field at last

great work on the reconstruction of medieval Baltic troops MADTAO, nice to see some authenticity after all those myths

one remark about axes: actualy I'm pretty sure, that in Lithuanian and Samogitian lands the absolute majority of found battle axes are double-bladed, not to say that there were no one-bladed axes of various design, but most of them were used in everyday life (chopping wood or smth), of course the 'conventional' ones might be used in war, especially if the warrior was really poor, but double-bladed axes were more practical when it came down to the matter of chopping some tin-heads

Scriptores Rerum Prussicarum mentions few times, that samogitians and lithuanians used to throw these double-bladed axes and/or clubs (bulava) at crusaders... so if you are looking for some unique Samogitian foot unit, I suggest using some sort sword/axe/spear (doesn't really matter, as those were used extensively) foot warrior, with the ability to throw axes/clubs before charge, or something like that

now about the archery on the whole and horse archers in baltic tribes: it's actualy quite unclear, as all chronicles seem to suggest that whenever Duchy's army faced crusaders: lithuanians used javelins,axes,clubs and ruthenians - bow for a long range damage, the sources are quite specific about this, albeit the sheer amount of archeological findings suggest that baltic tribes were using bows quite extensively and they were familiar with this weapon long before crusaders came... so I think the idea of using some sort of generic 'hunter' unit in the early period and later switch to rus foot archer mercenaries is not without a merit

with horse archers the situation is a bit different, the sources seem to suggest that ethnical lithuanians used the same throwing weapons (javelins, clubs), but not a bow. actualy in my opinion ethnical lithuanians might have used bows when on horseback, but only as a suplementary weapon, that was used under certain circumstances, mainly when dismounted, since the conditions near baltic weren't very favourable for eastern-steppe type horse archers to develop properly... BUT there is a high probability, that lithuanians, who were living and acting as garrisons in Duchy's eastern and, especialy, southern rus provinces, for a long time, accustomed to native conditions and warfare, and used a bow (remember Duchy's policy? - send some noble and his ratinue to govern the rus pricipality and leave them there)... there's other important thing, that supports the theory, that ethnical lithuanians riders didn't use bow (more like destroys entirely the myth that lithuanian cavalry were horse archers): why did Vytautas went to such great lenghts as to ressetle the karaims all the way from over the steppes to a heartland of ethnical Lithuania, near it's capital, giving them land, releasing them from taxes, giving them various rights, just to serve in his army? wasn't it because lithuanians lacked natural (irregular) horse archer cavalry? Vytautas had plenty of them (tartars, wallachians, rus) in eastern and southern parts of the Dutchy, but he had no such resources on western frontier, which could be mobilized against crusaders fast...

so to summarize... I think it's better to stick to javelins, if you want to make mounted missile units from lithuanians and leave the role of horse archers for karaims, tartars, rus, that served in Duchy's army just for that purpose. unless you want to implement some sort of mid/late lithuanians-living-in-eastern-southern-provices type of unit which would be CA-like historical/fantasy unit

[Giurza]

We missing one important unit type -clubman. I and Herkus discussed this type a bit and i believe it should be in. we even can update clubs for later periods.

UPDATE: Mine suggestion firstly about arrangement of info; we already have very nice drawings, so I suggest to Giurza (because he opened first message in this particular thread) to lineup all units which are already drawn in first message. It will help other user to find and to valuate them more quickly when scrolling down all threads; and the first message should be updated all the time, when new valuable info appliers. I think the same procedure should be applied in other threads too.

already done that... download and look at the attachment...
Sovijus, great info thanks...
so to the discussion... Samogitians? how do we do them? what type of unit it shal be?
and the club/mace unit... remember that weapons are not upgradable in M2TW! this applies only to armour... so we have to choose either mace or club... or do two units... what do you say?