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Thread: Noricum, Pannonia and Boii are not Gaul!

  1. #1
    Kraut and Tea's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Noricum, Pannonia and Boii are not Gaul!

    I have some knowlege of the history of the country that I live in and living in Europe generaly means that history is all arround you (The nightschool I visit use to be a Roman military camp).

    Knowing some stuff of Austrias (and some Hungarian) history I was really disapointed when playing Rome 2 and encountering the various Celtic factions that controlled the regions of Noricum and Pannonia. They were nothing but "gaul copies" which had the exact same unit roster. In the game the celtic tribes are divided between Gauls, Britains, Iberians, Thracians and Galatians.

    And the unit and building rosters for the factions in Noricum, Pannonia and Hercynia: Raeti, Nori, Helvetii, Eravisci, Scordisci and Boii are all the same copied from the Gaul roster:





    Only the Nori are a little exception with having Axe Warriors and Short swords added to their roster. But other than that, the different factions only have variation in their number of available Gaul cav, melee and range units.




    Yet the Celtic cultures native in Noricum, Pannonia and Hercynia were not Gaul. Only the Helvetii in what is today Switzerland were.

    Hallstadt Culture:

    The Celtic culture of the various peoples living in that region developed out of the "Hallstadt Culture" named after a place in Austria called Hallstadt. In that place during the 19th century a significant burrialsite and settlement was found containing over a thousand graves dating back to arround 600 BC. The settlement was found to have evolved arround the salt-mine in this region. The findings show that during this era hierachicalisation of society took place, with burrial sights clearly indecating the social standings of the peoples burried. If these settlements were divided into a "castle - lower town" order is yet being discussed by archeologists. It is clear though that trade with salt flurished during that era and that that trade made those people rich. Weapons made out of bronze and goods imported from Massalia aswell as the rich gifts burried with the dead are evidence for that. The settlements were fortified and findings suggest the presents of silver, gold and bronze smithing in most settlements.

    Extent and location of the Hallstadt Culture in Europe:



    Depiction of bronze age Hallstadt miners:



    Hallstadt mining tools made of bronze and deer antlers:





    Bronze Helmet from Hallstadt:



    Hilt (Handle of a sword) made out of ivory and decorated with amber:




    La Tčne era:

    At the end of the bronze age and the beginning of the La Tčne era (Named after archeological findings in the French town of La Tčne) iron replaced bronze throughout Noricum, Pannonia and Hercynia in the Celtic cultures present there. Yet the salt mining would continue. At 200 BCE the kingdom of Noricum evolved and ruled over greater parts of Austria, including Hallstadt.

    Raeti and Kingdom of Noricum:

    The Kingdom of Noricum evolved at arround 200 BCE out of a confederation of 13 Celtic tribes and was the first "political" entety in Austria. Due to technological and agricultural advances (Iron plow) the population of Noricum grew rapidly, as a result of which some parts of the population emigrated to Northern Italy into the coastal ereas arround the Adriatic. After the subjugation of Illyria, some Illyrians who refused subjugation emigrated into the North. Due to the mixing of the populations of Noricum and Illyria in that phase the peoples of Illyria and Noricum became so mixed that the Romans would refer to them with a new word: "Taurisker". Because of the rich deposits of iron and gold in Norricum the Romans built tight trade releationships with the Noricum. Until 17 AD the Kingdom of Noricum would cement it`s power by fighting the Germanian tribes to the North aswell as the Celtic tribes to the East. Noricum would control an erea streching from Lower Austria to West Hungary.
    The Raeti were clturaly similar to the peoples of Noricum and inhabited the erea of what is today Tyrol, Roman historian Plinius claims that the Reati were desentants of the Etruskians. And the various letters found by holy sights do actualy show a similarity to the Etruskian alphabet.
    The Reati would trade with their neighbours in honey, wax, meat, cheese, wood and other mostly agricultural goods.

    The occupation by the Romans was according to some historians peacefull, but recent archeological discoveries have found that to be a myth. There were no great battles and some eras may have been occupied peacefully by the Romans, but it is proven that some regions did put up resistance against the Roman invaders.

    The peoples of Noricum also worshiped different gods than Gauls, such as: Latobius, Noraia, Celeia, Teurnia, Alounae, Bedaius and Marmogius.
    A recent archeological discovery in Wöllersdorf also found a Druid gravesite. Suggesting that Druids in their functions as priests, consultants, judges and warriors were also widespread in Noricum.

    In the Game:


    From what I read and saw on documentaries and Museums the way in which the Celts of Noricum would fight the Romans would suggest a completly different unit roster for those central European Celts:

    Archery was widespread.
    Chariots were used
    One Roman historian recounts "white warriors" being Celts that painted their body white with lime before charging into battle.
    Illyrians who had emigrated after the subjugation of their homeland.
    Druids who were destinctively from the Noric Celtic culture.
    Noble Horsemen (In 49 BCE the Noricum King sent Ceasar 300 noble cavalry to support his war effort)
    Alot of cavalry, according to archeological findings horse breeding and the use of horses was widespread in Noricum.

    The religion of the Celts in Noricum was as mentioned different from the Gauls, meaning that the temples in the game should be dedicated to other gods.

    Economicaly, mining was an important part of the economy in Noricum with large quanteties of Iron and Salt being spread all accross the region which could have been reflected in the building chain. Also in agriculture, The Celts in Noricum produced and traded with honey and wax which could have also been represented.


    Helmets, axe and speartips:





    Chariot from Noricum:



    Battlescenes from a depiction dating to the early Iron age from Hallstadt:



    Depiction of Celtic Warrior from central Germany (Franken):




    Replica Helmet of a Hallstadt Warrior:






    Replica of a Hallstadt warrior shield:




    Hallstadt depiction of Warriors from a belt bucle:




    Replica Hallstadt Warriors:











    Conclusion:


    As you could see and read for yourself, the Celts who settled in what is today Austria, Slovenia, Hungary, Czech Republic and Slovakia were not just simple small copies of the Gauls but had their very own cultural identity. Just like the Celtibrians in Iberia, the Iceni in Britain or the Galatians Asia the Nori, Raeti, Boii and other would be correctly depiced in the game with a indiviual roser of economic and religious buildings aswell as with their own unit roster.



    I guess CA simply overlooked that fact.

    Maybe because it is a part of Celtic history that is not that well known. Some Austrians actualy belive that the enhabitants of what is now Austria were once Germanian, which is myth.
    Last edited by Kraut and Tea; November 23, 2013 at 08:10 AM.

  2. #2
    legate's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Noricum, Pannonia and Boii are not Gaul!

    You are of course completely correct however did you think that CA would create such diverse and different units for the celtic cultures?

    Its simply a copy and paste job.


  3. #3
    Kraut and Tea's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Noricum, Pannonia and Boii are not Gaul!

    Quote Originally Posted by legate View Post
    You are of course completely correct however did you think that CA would create such diverse and different units for the celtic cultures?

    Its simply a copy and paste job.
    They didn`t do that "copy and paste job" with the Celtebrians, Britanic Celts, Galatians and Thracians.

    The Celts in Norricum, Pannonia and the Boii are the only Celts that are simply "Gaul copies".

    Considering that they made each Celtic culture to be individual except for the ones I just mentioned, I believe that this was done out of lack of research or lack of knowlege.

    But not out of boredom and simplicity.

  4. #4
    TuCoT's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Noricum, Pannonia and Boii are not Gaul!

    You're right. As you know or don't know, I'm working on a mod changes British and Gallic tribes unit rosters. For now, British, Gallic and Cisalpine Celts are done and my next address will be "Eastern Celts". They will share much of basic Celtic units with Gauls (Celtic Slingers, Archers, Naked Spearmen, Celtic Swordsmen etc.) but they will have new and unique units only available for eastern celts (Boii Noble Infantry, Boii Noble Cavalry, Scordisci Infantry, Celto-Germanic Cavalry, Oksywie Swordsmen, Lugian Swordsmen). By the way some of my custom units for Cisalpine Celts:

    Caturiges Warriors (have some clipping issues, when CA releases Assembly Kit, I can edit rigid_model_v2 files):
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Noricum Spearmen:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Alpine Phalanx:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Rhaetic Axemen:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Alpine Shortswordsmen:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    So what I am trying to say is, these are things that can be brought to the game by modding, we only have to wait for CA releases their official modding tools.

  5. #5
    legate's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Noricum, Pannonia and Boii are not Gaul!

    Excellent Tucot

    Its modders like you that will make the game the way it should have been


  6. #6
    Kraut and Tea's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Noricum, Pannonia and Boii are not Gaul!

    Excelent!!!!

    But.... I dont want to take a piss here, but where did you get the research for the Celts wearing greek armor?

  7. #7

    Default Re: Noricum, Pannonia and Boii are not Gaul!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Germans are coming View Post
    Excelent!!!!

    But.... I dont want to take a piss here, but where did you get the research for the Celts wearing greek armor?
    I'm guessing that TuCot's units are based directly on the units in Europa Barbarorum (the names and aesthetics are the same). Actually, according to EB, they are wearing armor modeled on that used by the Northern Etruscans, presumably adopted from the Etruscan cities in the Po Valley before they were Celticized.

    Linky: http://www.europabarbarorum.com/fact...its3.html#alps

  8. #8
    Sun Jetzu's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Noricum, Pannonia and Boii are not Gaul!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Germans are coming View Post
    I guess CA simply overlooked that fact.

    I doubt it was overlooked. More like they didnt care to make them different, or historically accurate.
    They rushed the game out (didnt even add avatar system, stripped many old total war features, barely any historical battles).
    My guess is this.
    If the game released in sept 2014 instead. It would have been 100% different experience for everybody.
    Also if they had done beta testing and had 100% shown the features they removed from the past games to everybody.
    Taken the feedback and made the necessary changes so everybody would be happy.
    The game would look alot different than it does now.
    One Punch Man Series VS My Hero Academia Series - Who's Better?

  9. #9

    Default Re: Noricum, Pannonia and Boii are not Gaul!

    The terms Gauls and Celts referred to the same people. Gauls were called Celts, and Celts were called Gauls. One is a Greek term, the other a Roman one.

  10. #10
    legate's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Noricum, Pannonia and Boii are not Gaul!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Librarian View Post
    The terms Gauls and Celts referred to the same people. Gauls were called Celts, and Celts were called Gauls. One is a Greek term, the other a Roman one.
    All Gauls were Celts, but not all Celts were Gauls.


  11. #11

    Default Re: Noricum, Pannonia and Boii are not Gaul!

    Awesome read GaC and great to hear your working on fixing this TuCot. Thank you both for putting time into this subject. Look forward to the mod.
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  12. #12
    Odovacar's Avatar I am with Europe!
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    Default Re: Noricum, Pannonia and Boii are not Gaul!

    Some of the Pannonian celts (their ancestors!) probabl came from Gaul (Marne-area) like the tectosages, but their presence is not entirely proven. (Miklós Szabó: a kelták nyomában Magyarországon) The celts who invaded the area mixed with the locals though (illyrians, sgynna) so they had to look differently than the classic, Ceasar-era gallic tribes whose look we all know...

    I think CA did not dive into this research, because they use mainly Osprey books, but Rome II is their most historic game so far I think, we have tons of factions, and units are generally not hollywood pop culture guys...
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  13. #13
    Dago Red's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Noricum, Pannonia and Boii are not Gaul!

    You might be interested in Europa Barbarorum II's Boii previews.

    Latest:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...Boii-%28III%29

    There are 3 in all, but they go back so many years the first two have missing media.

    1st: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...eview-The-Boii

    2nd: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...-Boii-%28II%29

  14. #14

    Default Re: Noricum, Pannonia and Boii are not Gaul!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Germans are coming View Post
    They didn`t do that "copy and paste job" with the Celtebrians, Britanic Celts, Galatians and Thracians.

    The Celts in Norricum, Pannonia and the Boii are the only Celts that are simply "Gaul copies".

    Considering that they made each Celtic culture to be individual except for the ones I just mentioned, I believe that this was done out of lack of research or lack of knowlege.

    But not out of boredom and simplicity.
    Very interesting thread. That said, although CA didn't do a 'copy and paste' on the factions that you mention above, nor exactly did they go into any real depth either (with the exception of the Britons). Of course, I would really love to see more variety to the Celtic units in this area, especially if they're based on the great photos you've posted. They look a little more like Thracian/Illyrian types than the overly-used Gauls of northern Europe.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Noricum, Pannonia and Boii are not Gaul!

    @ TuCot, love those units! Sorry if I have misunderstood, but have you released them yet or is this something still to look forward to?

  16. #16

    Default Re: Noricum, Pannonia and Boii are not Gaul!

    What are they called then, if not Gauls or Celts?

  17. #17
    Kraut and Tea's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Noricum, Pannonia and Boii are not Gaul!

    Quote Originally Posted by daelin4 View Post
    What are they called then, if not Gauls or Celts?
    "Noriker"

    I dont know the English word. Maybe "Norica" or something like that.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Noricum, Pannonia and Boii are not Gaul!

    So you want CA to create an entirely separate cultural category for this particular region, based solely on an argument that could be applied to pretty much every other Celtic subgroup, if not every group that ever existed?

  19. #19
    Kraut and Tea's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Noricum, Pannonia and Boii are not Gaul!

    Quote Originally Posted by daelin4 View Post
    So you want CA to create an entirely separate cultural category for this particular region, based solely on an argument that could be applied to pretty much every other Celtic subgroup, if not every group that ever existed?
    Define "subgroup".

    And I didn`t demand anything from CA nore would I be in the possition to do that.

    I pointed out the simple fact that the Celts who lived in the region which was to the east of Switzerland and to the West of Bulgaria were not Gaul.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Noricum, Pannonia and Boii are not Gaul!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Germans are coming View Post
    Define "subgroup".

    And I didn`t demand anything from CA nore would I be in the possition to do that.

    I pointed out the simple fact that the Celts who lived in the region which was to the east of Switzerland and to the West of Bulgaria were not Gaul.

    You made the correct finding about the copy & paste in R2

    but you made the wrong conclusion out of it

    not the Gauls have been copy & pasted to create the Boii etc.
    it was the other way round
    CA copy pasted those Units to create the Gaul

    How would the game have been perfect if CA would have created the Gaul correctly and not just simply do a copy past from another celtic tribe!

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