Unit Suggestions - England

[Andytheplatypus]

I now have more time to work on Titanium and get back into modding, I would like some opinions on unit suggestions for the England faction only. I will make other threads for other factions as needed. Since we are no where near the unit cap of 500 I would like some suggestions from you guys.

• Names of units
• How they look
• What weapons they use
• What armor they have
• Range/ power of weapon

Again I am hoping for suggestions, I will add ones I like to this post and update as it goes. + rep will be give for good information.

Just another reminder: units for England faction only

[napoleonic]

for early era only?

[Andytheplatypus]

Yes 1100-1200

[Used2BRoz]

I'm sure we did this for the CHIP sub-mod a couple of years ago.

I've no idea what became of the project or who has any of the assets.

I have a few books on the period - the units would be very basic at this period.


Cavalry :
Royal Household knights (for faction leader)
Ducal knights
Shire knights

Infantry :
Dismounted versions of the cavalry as they did sometimes fight on foot.
General militia types - spear plus sword or axe
Basic peasant archers

Mercenaries :
Crossbowmen
Spears (from Brittany among other places)
Mounted knights (from northern France)
Glaswegian infantry from Scotland -
Welsh bowmen (sth Wales)
Welsh spearmen (north Wales)

I'd avoid peasants with pitchforks - the Generals in this period would only arm and equip people they could trust.
The fyrd was just the saxon name for the militia. Same people.

There was no carry-over of huscarls or other heavy saxon infantry - they were either dead of fled before the game starts.

If you want a flavour of english amries and fighting in thsi period have a look at books on :
The War between King Stephen and Queen matilda ; Life and times of William (the) Marshall; books on King Richard I as well as more specialist works.

I'll add more if I find anything.

[Andytheplatypus]

I'm sure we did this for the CHIP sub-mod a couple of years ago.

I've no idea what became of the project or who has any of the assets.

I have a few books on the period - the units would be very basic at this period.


Cavalry :
Royal Household knights (for faction leader)
Ducal knights
Shire knights

Infantry :
Dismounted versions of the cavalry as they did sometimes fight on foot.
General militia types - spear plus sword or axe
Basic peasant archers

Mercenaries :
Crossbowmen
Spears (from Brittany among other places)
Mounted knights (from northern France)
Glaswegian infantry from Scotland -
Welsh bowmen (sth Wales)
Welsh spearmen (north Wales)

I'd avoid peasants with pitchforks - the Generals in this period would only arm and equip people they could trust.
The fyrd was just the saxon name for the militia. Same people.

There was no carry-over of huscarls or other heavy saxon infantry - they were either dead of fled before the game starts.

If you want a flavour of english amries and fighting in thsi period have a look at books on :
The War between King Stephen and Queen matilda ; Life and times of William (the) Marshall; books on King Richard I as well as more specialist works.

I'll add more if I find anything.

Wow didnt expect to see you again. I like your ideas but they are still a bit basic. We have a ton of unit slots that still need to be filled out.

Here is a basic list of what I was thinking for unit types in England so far.

Cavalry:

• Lord's Men (Bodyguard) H
• Household Nobles (Elite Knights) H
• Norman Knights - H
• Knights ( Regular Knights) H
• Men At Arms (Medium Cavalry) M
• Light Cavalry (Skirmish type) L
• Light Cavalry (Melee type) L

Infantry

• Dismounted Household Nobles - H
• Dismounted Norman Knights - H
• Dismounted Knights - H
• Dismounted Men At Arms - M
• Name for 2 handed axe unit - M
• 2H Spear Militia - L
• 1H Spear Militia - L
• Name for Peasant type unit with big numbers - Very L

Missile

• Welsh Longbowmen - Elite
• Hunters - Elite (still use longbow but not as skilled as above)
• Militia Archers (Fairly ineffective archers that use short bows, not trained)
• Name for Skirmish Infantry
• Name for Crossbow unit

This is the basic list I have come up with so far for unit names. Obviously I still need some help. The better the unit the less numbers they will have but they will have better armor, damage, morale, etc.

Edit: I also forgot to mention that after the units have been figured out we have to see which settlement type they will get recruited from cities or castles.

[Used2BRoz]

That's the problem - the english -or anglo-norman armies were very basic at this time.

No longbows for a start - didn't get used until later.
Archers would be militia - but there was no organised archery training at this period. So poor quality and training.

Crossbowmen were feudal retainers (garrison for castles) - or mercenaries. Never huge numbers of them.

All your cavalry, for example, are more or less the same troops.
The only difference would be in quality of horses and armour, but effectively they were used the same.
There was little armour other than hauberk, chain mail, helmet and shield (kite or slightly shorter.)

You might have the best for the Royal Household.
Other Barons would have their retainers and the rest would be whatever knights of the shire who could be mustered.

The english didn't use hobilars until after this period.

Peasants - they were there mainly for servicing the actual fighting men - servants, carters, blacksmiths, etc. Not for fighting.

All spears were two handed unless you're using them for throwing. You can only resist a cavalry charge with 2 handed spears.
Spearmen would carry sword or axe as secondary armament for infantry melee. You wouldn't use both weapons at the same time.

IIRC POlycarpe might have more information ?

[Andytheplatypus]

That's the problem - the english -or anglo-norman armies were very basic at this time. I agree with this, but at the same time there has to be a little slack so that its enjoyable

No longbows for a start - didn't get used until later. Longbows were in fact used, but not in bigger numbers like the later years. I have gotten around this by having them do decent damage (around 5) but having very small unit numbers and recruitment.
Archers would be militia - but there was no organised archery training at this period. So poor quality and training. Yes I want poor quality archers for archer militia

Crossbowmen were feudal retainers (garrison for castles) - or mercenaries. Never huge numbers of them. Yes I agree with that, ill have a higher recruitment and upkeep cost for them as well.

All your cavalry, for example, are more or less the same troops.
The only difference would be in quality of horses and armour, but effectively they were used the same.
There was little armour other than hauberk, chain mail, helmet and shield (kite or slightly shorter.) Yup I agree, basically the same except Ill have to get more elite units slightly more armor, damage, morale, costs and maybe stamina.

You might have the best for the Royal Household.
Other Barons would have their retainers and the rest would be whatever knights of the shire who could be mustered.

The english didn't use hobilars until after this period. I know but I wanted to have some sort of light cavalry, would that be too ridiculous?

Peasants - they were there mainly for servicing the actual fighting men - servants, carters, blacksmiths, etc. Not for fighting. I noticed that from the sources I have looked at, but I need something cheap and numerous for the beggining of the game. Something you can recruit in a hurry for defense but not something your going to want to keep for a while.

All spears were two handed unless you're using them for throwing. You can only resist a cavalry charge with 2 handed spears.
Spearmen would carry sword or axe as secondary armament for infantry melee. You wouldn't use both weapons at the same time. I definetly want to have more 2 handed spear men in game, but there is an issue of balance with them. I would like to use 1 handed spears as well, mostly for adding variety.

IIRC POlycarpe might have more information ? I have talked to him, but most of his sources are for a later period then this mod. I also have extensive books on the time period but there isnt a whole bunch of information out there for 'units' that arent nobles. The ones who wrote books back then didnt care about non noble people

[King of the Ring]

knights will have mail,sorry but no plate mail even at 1200,maybe partial the chestplate

[Hrobatos]

What is plate mail?.

[k/t]

There was a discussion about that exact same thing a few days ago, but I can't find where.

Here's a link that shows one of the pictures that was posted in that other thread: http://www.thefullwiki.org/Plated_mail

[Hazzard]

Plate mail was basically a series of thick metal plates connected by chain to keep them in place. It's easier than plate armour (gothic plate) to construct and while I don't have any evidence, I expect it was comfier and easier to move in.

[Andytheplatypus]

Not really sure why plate armor was even brought up as the end date for this mod right now is 1200. I am confident that everyone on the mod team knows that there will be no plate anything.

[King of the Ring]

only iron helmets(if that counts as plate?)
yeah,those greathelms have a long history

[Hrobatos]

I thought it was used only in east. I mean first nation I remember bringing this to Balkans were Ottomans.

[VINC.XXIII]

knights will have mail,sorry but no plate mail even at 1200,maybe partial the chestplate

No chest plate before 1250 as western european standard. Supplementary armor can be gambeson and broigne. I means only about western knights.

You have some nice ones free to use(against credits) from Gemini Sandy. Its have the faced spangenhelm and faced half healme(south italian helmet) of
1180. And Mr Crow ones from Sicilian unit roster for Sicilia

That helmet you can find it on a sicilian church, can't remember the original picture...original french name for this mask was Joière

Firstly(around 1170), the Joière started like that

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

To finish like that in 1180, further becoming the great healme, but its out of your time frame

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Skomorox]

May I propose to rather keep it entirely or more or less historical in terms of army composition rather then adding things for "balance"? You can always recruit a ton of peasant warriors/militia if you want a cheap army which is exactly what compromised 90% of the armies at the time. As for variety, why not just add an elite, richer, version of some of the units. Then Gentry Units. Maybe make many variants of the same peasant units, with different weapons.
As well as dismounted Cavalry.

Small differences are more then enough, the units don't have to contrast a lot, and I'd rather have historically different nations with different abilities and armies and realistic weaknesses rather then "balanced out" armies with all types of units for all. If some countries simply didn't have some type of units then they didn't. I think many would agree.

Also Norman and other mercenaries for example would be historical if you really need variety.

It is a slippery slope to Hollywood when you start adding semi-realistic units, or units you want to see in a faction rather then the ones that were.

Less is more sometimes.

If you see there is balance problems with England then something is not right anyway, historically England managed to come out strong in 1200, so all one would need is to read the battles of england and france or look at the history in the era, this should give you the answers what units England used and how it managed to not get crushed in 1100-1200.

[Hazzard]

I thought it was simply surviving due to be an island and hard to attack. France was nver good at getting a lare force onto English soil. So they just supported uprisings with small forces in hope one would overthrow the king.

[Skomorox]

What about Normandy, it was only taken from England after 1200.

[Hazzard]

What about Normandy, it was only taken from England after 1200.

Not sure why it took so long for France to take it, but Normandy is not important strategically since the Royal Family had moved over the England.

[Used2BRoz]

There's a small near contemporary drawing of soldiers at the battle of Lincoln ( 1141 ) here :

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Of_Lincoln.jpg