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  1. #161

    Default Re: [Preview] Units

    Quote Originally Posted by Milner View Post
    I don't think, first because they don't know us and we don't know them, second, and the most important, because there are not female characters playing a important role (generals) in the mod...as i said a long time ago (giving reasons) , and third, because Weta work is not between the major influences on concept art to make the models, we must give thanks to many other people (many of them of this site) before them...
    I think he said it only as a joke, oh Glorious Leader. No need to scold him .

  2. #162

    Default Re: [Preview] Units

    Perhaps my words sounds rude, is not the intention, but i prefer sounds rude and don't give hopes of something that will not be in the mod, and finally give to myself a lot of rep as lier...

    oh Glorious Leader
    It seems you are finally seen the coast of the Blessed Realm...

  3. #163
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    You can get rep if you lie?? That would been so much easier *morgoth, morgoth*


    @ DieWalküre
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  4. #164

    Default Re: [Preview] Units

    I was speaking in Quenya, dear Ngugi

  5. #165

    Default Re: [Preview] Units

    Quote Originally Posted by Milner View Post
    I don't think, first because they don't know us and we don't know them, second, and the most important, because there are not female characters playing a important role (generals) in the mod...as i said a long time ago (giving reasons) , and third, because Weta work is not between the major influences on concept art to make the models, we must give thanks to many other people (many of them of this site) before them...


    Why???...there are other families in the realm that have options of take the control if the royal family falls.
    First of all you need to calm down a bit, because I think you misunderstood almost everything I wrote in the previous comments; second, you indeed sounded really rude.
    When I wrote 'you have to thank Weta Workshop' I was referring to the quite funny situation about that particular picture, that the other user found really similar to a friend of his/hers; he/she should thank Weta because they created that whole concept.
    I never implied that Weta created your concepts or inspired you to do it; how did you think that I'm too stupid to think that a multimillionaire company creates concepts for your Mod?

    As Bercor wrote, it was an ironic statement; because that concept was totally apart from the 'PJ' view of Tolkien's world, and I knew that you tried to 'detach' from the PJ concept and return to the original 'roots' of lore; it was meant to be a compliment for you, if you had really understood it.

    About Galadriel and the other female characters, we have completely different opinions, but I respect this fact, because you are one of the creators and this is the good side of discussing with other people about concepts or opinions (capacity that you didn't show).

    I never wanted to dictate anything, nor did I ever have the presumption to know the truth; I'm new here but, if you want an advice, you should really change your attitude a bit.
    With all the peace in this world
    DieWalküre

  6. #166

    Default Re: [Preview] Units

    @Ngugi I'm sorry, but I prefer the blessing of Elbereth Gilthoniel

  7. #167

    Default Re: [Preview] Units

    Quote Originally Posted by DieWalküre View Post
    @Ngugi I'm sorry, but I prefer the blessing of Elbereth Gilthoniel
    But I could always change my mind (just saw the picture of Galadriel), I love cookies

  8. #168

    Default Re: [Preview] Units

    First of all you need to calm down a bit
    I'm usually in a calm way...and the people who knows me, knows too that i'm usually kidding all the time...

    second, you indeed sounded really rude.
    As i wrote above, my words may sounds rude...but is not the intention, i wrote that in my second message.

    how did you think that I'm too stupid
    I don't think that you or other members of the site can be stupids or other things...it never will be my problem that other people are, not are, believe or not believe.


    (capacity that you didn't show)
    Do you think?, read all the threads, please...

    I never wanted to dictate anything
    And i never do things by the dictation of others, of course! (a problem of the people that born free and would like to die in the same way).

    you should really change your attitude a bit.
    That's right! I must change my bad attitude...i have a lot of infractions, insults to others and many other bad things in my historial here.

    And as you are new here, welcome to the site!

  9. #169

    Default Re: [Preview] Units

    Quote Originally Posted by Milner View Post
    I'm usually in a calm way...and the people who knows me, knows too that i'm usually kidding all the time...


    As i wrote above, my words may sounds rude...but is not the intention, i wrote that in my second message.


    I don't think that you or other members of the site can be stupids or other things...it never will be my problem that other people are, not are, believe or not believe.



    Do you think?, read all the threads, please...


    And i never do things by the dictation of others, of course! (a problem of the people that born free and would like to die in the same way).


    That's right! I must change my bad attitude...i have a lot of infractions, insults to others and many other bad things in my historial here.

    And as you are new here, welcome to the site!
    Consider that I always refer to this thread and the answers that you gave me, nobody wants to open the book of your history in this site (also because I'm sure you have really more experience than me)

    I just want you to realise that, maybe, you sounded rude because you had no idea of what I was talking about (maybe I too wrote in a obscure way), and you took out that 'Weta rant' and hit a wall.
    Neverheless, I think we can take down the axes of war, I'm a really pacific person.

    Thanks for welcoming me, by the way; I hope we will discuss soon about this amazing Mod

  10. #170

    Default Re: [Preview] Units

    Don't worry, axes are not between my weapons...

    About Weta, i have not problems with them (first new to me that they are a multimillonaire company, and i'm not kidding)...but i'm sure their concepts are not very good to this mod, they are usually too much closed to PJ's films.

    you sounded rude because you had no idea of what I was talking about (maybe I too wrote in a obscure way)
    Or perhaps that english is not my native language and sometimes is very difficult be understand of what others said and what i want to say, really.

    I'm a really pacific person
    But you arrived into a battlefield...

  11. #171

    Default Re: [Preview] Units

    Quote Originally Posted by Milner View Post
    Don't worry, axes are not between my weapons...

    About Weta, i have not problems with them (first new to me that they are a multimillonaire company, and i'm not kidding)...but i'm sure their concepts are not very good to this mod, they are usually too much closed to PJ's films.


    Or perhaps that english is not my native language and sometimes is very difficult be understand of what others said and what i want to say, really.


    But you arrived into a battlefield...
    Yes, Weta Workshop is a part of Weta Digital, the company that was funded by Peter Jackson and that created the special effects and the CGI for many famous movies (among all the LOTR trilogy, Avatar, King Kong and The Hobbit trilogy); these films have done literally billions of dollars in the box office.

    Don't worry, English is not my native language too and I can assure you that you write in a completely understandable way.

    I was technically defending myself, since I was assaulted

  12. #172

    Default Re: [Preview] Units

    Lore-wise, Galadriel did essentially nothing in Beleriand (externally, she was a late addition as a character, and sort of shoe-horned in to the tale). The only combat she is noted to have been involved in is the defense of the Teleri from the Feanoreans at Alqualonde. She and Celeborn both fled Beleriand before the fall of Nargothrond.

  13. #173

    Default Re: [Preview] Units

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    Lore-wise, Galadriel did essentially nothing in Beleriand (externally, she was a late addition as a character, and sort of shoe-horned in to the tale). The only combat she is noted to have been involved in is the defense of the Teleri from the Feanoreans at Alqualonde. She and Celeborn both fled Beleriand before the fall of Nargothrond.


    I think you should separate the 'lore' question from the game's system and structure, because it's a game and it can't be obviously a perfect transposition of a very 'dense' and splendid book, as it is the Silmarillion.
    Because a game has to necessarily respond to a different logic, where the lore is not strictly regarded as the main goal and it has to coexist with the enjoyability of the game.


    About the lore, it's true that in the Silmarillion the female characters don't play a significant role, in fact I always referred to the essential and most important ones, Melian, Lúthien and Galadriel.
    You also have to consider the type of book which is the Silmarillion and the way Tolkien tells us this story.
    The Silmarillion was never finished by Tolkien and so it can be considered an 'incomplete' book; it was published by reorganising the notes of the Professor and his writings, some of which were conceived together with the first ideas for 'The Hobbit' and 'The Lord of the Rings'. Tolkien always wanted to complete the Silmarillion by linking it tightly to his other texts, giving circularity to the whole mythology; that's why the character of Galadriel seems to be a 'later included' character, as if Tolkien wanted to tells us her past and roots to link her with her counterpart of 'The Lord of the Rings'.
    He also often used to write in an obscure way (by giving very little details and summarily describing the events, as if he's writing an epic myth), especially in the Silmarillion, due to which he seems sometimes to contradict himself and his texts.
    The First Age is, in fact, like a mythical age, in which took place extraordinary and immeasurable events; Tolkien didn't want to 'ruin' this ethereal, ancient and glorious atmosphere, by giving many details and descriptions, like in an ordinary novel.


    So we don't know exactly what Galadriel precisely did during her staying in Beleriand (Nargothrond and Doriath), we don't know if she ever took the sword and fought at least once alongside her brothers; we don't know exactly if she did it, but we know for sure that she could have done it and had all the chances to do it (and this is actual lore).
    Galadriel (called also Nerwen for good reasons) was already regarded in Aman as the most beautiful and the mightiest woman of the Noldor, and therefore she was one of the greatest leaders that actively supported the return to Middle Earth; she did mainly because she wanted to rule a realm on her own (isn't it a fundamental quality for a general or governor?) in the 'wild' East, playing a decisive role among the other 'Royals'.
    In the First Age Galadriel was a bit different, she was very fierce and proud and her strength was more physical than 'magical'; so I think that the 'warrior princess' concept would fit her very well (even because the RTW engine wouldn't allow magic) and doesn't contradict enormously the lore.
    Eventually I think that the presence of Galadriel would be very significant and appreciated, because she is also part of the First Age and a lot of people like her character, and she is too great and important to be left out from the game; the game itself has contradictions and differences with the lore, like the presence of the Teleri of Alqualondë in the Valinor's Host (they never put a foot on Beleriand) or the possibility to avoid the Kinslayings and to be refused the help of the Valar. But I support these things, because it's a game and again it can't necessarily follow the lore and it isn't a book.


    Sorry for the long answer, but I needed to explain myself a little better


    P.S. As far as I know Galadriel didn't defend the Teleri in Alqualondë, nor did she have any part in the Kinslaying; the Houses of Fingolfin and Finarfin didn't know who started the fight and they were naturally supportive towards their fellows Noldor, but the House of Finarfin didn't do anything anyway (neither attack nor defence) because they found it cruel and the wife of Finarfin was one of the Teleri of Alqualondë.
    She, however, considered herself guilty of it, because she was one of the Noldor and one of the leaders of the rebellion.




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  14. #174

    Default Re: [Preview] Units

    Edit:


  15. #175
    Feanaro Curufinwe's Avatar Primicerius
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    Galadriel fighting depends on the version. There are 4 drafts about her backstory, including the insufferable one where Celeborn is a Teleri Prince named Teleporno.
    It is such a quiet thing, to fall. But far more terrible is to admit it.
    Proud supporter and fan of Fourth Age: Total War

  16. #176

    Default Re: [Preview] Units

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanaro Curufinwe View Post
    Galadriel fighting depends on the version. There are 4 drafts about her backstory, including the insufferable one where Celeborn is a Teleri Prince named Teleporno.
    Yes, I know it
    The fact that exist other different versions shows evidently that the Silmarillion was an incomplete work, and that Tolkien himself changed idea many times.
    As I far as I know, though, the Quenta Silmarillion Team has chosen the common version of Celeborn being a prince of Doriath, one the Sindar of Beleriand.
    When I'm referring to Galadriel as a 'warrior princess', I don't necessarily mean that it actually went this way, I always meant that she could have fought, because we know very well her strength and capacity (that Tolkien always referred to, and this the actual lore).
    However I'm always talking about proposals and ideas, but I care very much because I think that without her the game would lack an essential element, she is not like the other women of the Noldor (that won't obviously be in the game) and she should be considered equal in authority to the other Royals of the Noldor (Maedhros, Celegorm, Amras, Turgon,...); we have to remember that she is the only one of the 'royal family' that survived the First Age.

    I just want that the game will be complete and great, like everyone else

  17. #177

    Default Re: [Preview] Units

    Quote Originally Posted by DieWalküre View Post
    I think you should separate the 'lore' question from the game's system and structure, because it's a game and it can't be obviously a perfect transposition of a very 'dense' and splendid book, as it is the Silmarillion.
    Because a game has to necessarily respond to a different logic, where the lore is not strictly regarded as the main goal and it has to coexist with the enjoyability of the game.
    That is not my job here. My job is to give advice on the lore. Game-wise, I am not sure that female generals can be done properly.

    About the lore, it's true that in the Silmarillion the female characters don't play a significant role, in fact I always referred to the essential and most important ones, Melian, Lúthien and Galadriel.
    I am only referring to Galadriel. And lore-wise, in the Silmarillion, Galadriel is neither essential nor important. If she were removed from the narrative, nothing would change.
    You also have to consider the type of book which is the Silmarillion and the way Tolkien tells us this story.
    The Silmarillion was never finished by Tolkien and so it can be considered an 'incomplete' book; it was published by reorganising the notes of the Professor and his writings, some of which were conceived together with the first ideas for 'The Hobbit' and 'The Lord of the Rings'. Tolkien always wanted to complete the Silmarillion by linking it tightly to his other texts, giving circularity to the whole mythology; that's why the character of Galadriel seems to be a 'later included' character, as if Tolkien wanted to tells us her past and roots to link her with her counterpart of 'The Lord of the Rings'.
    The reason Galadriel "seems to be a 'later included' character", is, quite simply, because she was. There is no 'seems' about it. Tolkien invented her after his initial phases of writing the Silmarillion, when the course the Silm would take was already complete. She was later inserted into the narrative, much like Gil-galad.

    So we don't know exactly what Galadriel precisely did during her staying in Beleriand (Nargothrond and Doriath), we don't know if she ever took the sword and fought at least once alongside her brothers; we don't know exactly if she did it, but we know for sure that she could have done it and had all the chances to do it (and this is actual lore).
    I'm not dealing in could haves here. We know that Galadriel dwelt mostly in Doriath, briefly in Nargothrond, and that she fled Beleriand at some point before the fall of Nargothrond, and the only physical combat she is ever mentioned as having participated in is the defense of the Teleri at Alqualonde.


    P.S. As far as I know Galadriel didn't defend the Teleri in Alqualondë, nor did she have any part in the Kinslaying; the Houses of Fingolfin and Finarfin didn't know who started the fight and they were naturally supportive towards their fellows Noldor, but the House of Finarfin didn't do anything anyway (neither attack nor defence) because they found it cruel and the wife of Finarfin was one of the Teleri of Alqualondë.
    In one of the versions Tolkien wrote, Galadriel fought against the Feanoreans. See Unfinished Tales, History of Galadriel and Celeborn.
    Last edited by Infidel144; February 24, 2015 at 08:16 PM.

  18. #178

    Default Re: [Preview] Units

    I am only referring to Galadriel. And lore-wise, in the Silmarillion, Galadriel is neither essential nor important. If she were removed from the narrative, nothing would change.
    Just like half of the characters of the Silmarillion
    I'm discussing about her role in the game, I completely agree with you about the fact that she will naturally have a greater and far more important role in LOTR, but we know that she was part of the Noldor that returned to Beleriand, she was already powerful and influential (on another level compared to the other Noldorin Ladies) and that she hated Morgoth as much as her other relatives; that would be enough for me to put her in the game, not necessarily with a big role (there can be various possibilities for her), because she is part of the First Age too (even though she's not the central matter of it).
    If we consider only the importance and the presence of the characters in this story, the game should then have only the Noldor, the Edain and Angband as the main and only playable factions; you know that the other factions (Evil Men, Wood Elves and the Dwarves) don't play an essential part in the progression of the war and in the fall of the main villain.
    But the Team chose to consider everyone, because the point of the game is making yourself immerse in the atmosphere of the War of the Jewels (with all its characters and elements)

    The reason Galadriel "seems to be a 'later included' character", is, quite simply, because she was. There is no 'seems' about it. Tolkien invented her after his initial phases of writing the Silmarillion, when the course the Silm would take was already complete. She was later inserted into the narrative, much like Gil-galad.
    Yes, it's true (that was what I wanted to mean, the point is embracing all the lore and Tolkien's Mythology). But it doesn't make her meaningless or not worthy to be included.
    One could say the same thing about Sauron (obviously with all the right differencies), because we know that he's mainly involved in the quest of Beren and Lúthien and after his defeat by Huan his role as a lieutenant remains unsure and questionable; what Sauron did during the War of Wrath must not have been so significant and essential, in fact Tolkien only mentions him at the end, when he asks for the forgiveness of Eönwë.

    In one of the versions Tolkien wrote, Galadriel fought against the Feanoreans. See Unfinished Tales, History of Galadriel and Celeborn.
    It was a later version, but still one of the canonical ones. I think, though, that the Team has chosen the most common version, where Galadriel returns to Beleriand with the House of Fingolfin after passing through the Helcaraxë and then meets Celeborn in Doriath.

    I'm not sure but I think that this picture shows Finrod and Galadriel during the March of the Noldor


  19. #179

    Default Re: [Preview] Units

    Not as we would like, that's the reason of my negative to do it...
    How would you like to make her Milner?

  20. #180

    Default Re: [Preview] Units

    Quote Originally Posted by DieWalküre View Post
    Just like half of the characters of the Silmarillion
    I'm discussing about her role in the game, I completely agree with you about the fact that she will naturally have a greater and far more important role in LOTR, but we know that she was part of the Noldor that returned to Beleriand, she was already powerful and influential (on another level compared to the other Noldorin Ladies) and that she hated Morgoth as much as her other relatives; that would be enough for me to put her in the game, not necessarily with a big role (there can be various possibilities for her), because she is part of the First Age too (even though she's not the central matter of it).
    If we look at just the women, Melian, Luthien, Aredhel, Idril and Elwing: any of those being removed majorly changes the story.
    It is not that she is not the central matter, it's that she has no influence at all.
    If we consider only the importance and the presence of the characters in this story, the game should then have only the Noldor, the Edain and Angband as the main and only playable factions; you know that the other factions (Evil Men, Wood Elves and the Dwarves) don't play an essential part in the progression of the war and in the fall of the main villain.
    Dwarves, Evil Men and Wood Elves are not individual characters, but are extant 'cultures'. Even if I agreed that they did not play essential parts, All of them actually are realms and fight in battles. Galadriel does not have a realm, does not fight in battles and flees to Eriador before the fall of Nargothrond.

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