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  1. #181
    Feanaro Curufinwe's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: [Preview] Units

    Quote Originally Posted by DieWalküre View Post
    Is it just me, or does Galadriel look rather pleased with herself?

    "Ha, I never liked Turgon's wife."
    "Sist-"
    "Shut up, Finrod."
    Last edited by Feanaro Curufinwe; February 28, 2015 at 01:38 PM.
    It is such a quiet thing, to fall. But far more terrible is to admit it.
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  2. #182

    Default Re: [Preview] Units

    If we look at just the women, Melian, Luthien, Aredhel, Idril and Elwing: any of those being removed majorly changes the story.
    It is not that she is not the central matter, it's that she has no influence at all.
    I think you are underestimating her too much, both her role and her capabilities. I'm always talking about the game and my opinion of Galadriel being in it, I don't want to rewrite or change the Silmarillion itself; the powers of Galadriel and her role are clearly shown not only in the Silmarillion but in other tales and stories, that are part of the whole Tolkien's mythology as well. If you think about she is mentioned very little times in the central part of the book (the actual War of the Jewels), but in the other parts of the book (the life of the Eldar in Aman and the Third Age) her role is somewhat expanded and Tolkien gives her much more importance; that's because, like we said above, she was a 'later included' character in the story and had to be linked to her 'counterpart' in LOTR and in the general lore, like many others in their own way (Gil-Galad, Elrond, Sauron, Celeborn,...). But that doesn't make them different or lessen their essence, because they belong to the general lore/mythology, which is inevitably much more complete (because it comprehends all the ages and you can have a better general view of the 'portrait') than the 'mere' story told in the book, or in that precise chapter (Quenta Silmarillion).
    Since it is a game and it necessarily can't follow strictly the book, I think you have to rely more on the general lore if you want to recreate the context of the First Age and have more details about the characters, their powers, their personalities and so on.

    Having said that (sorry if I wrote something that may seem obscure or complicated to understand, but I didn't know how to express myself differently) you will find that Galadriel has indeed a great influence and we have many hints about it; she was one of the main leaders of the 'rebellion' (her speech in Tirion) and probably the only royal in the House of Finarfin that supported it actively, in contrast to her father (he later quits the journey) and her brothers (Finrod was sad because he had to leave Amarië).
    Galadriel was considered already in Aman the most beautiful and mightiest woman of the Noldor, so beautiful that the very Fëanor took inspiration from her hair to create the Silmarils (not a meaningless thing); her powerful strength will be shown in the future siege of Dol Guldur, where she throws down its walls bare handed.
    In the First Age Galadriel was also very proud, though never arrogant, and fierce (she ignores the ban of the Valar) and wanted to rule freely a realm in the Mortal Lands; we can easily say that she is equal in authority and spirit to the other royals (Tolkien himself even compares her to Fëanor).
    At the end of the day, lore/mythology-wise, she has all the chances and rights to stay among her male relatives (she is on another level) as a powerful and important character, even though it could seem to contradict the lines of the book; part of the light of the Two Trees of Valinor is present in her, she represents the First Age.

    I don't know, I think the game would lack something without her, and the House of Finarfin especially

    Dwarves, Evil Men and Wood Elves are not individual characters, but are extant 'cultures'. Even if I agreed that they did not play essential parts, All of them actually are realms and fight in battles. Galadriel does not have a realm, does not fight in battles and flees to Eriador before the fall of Nargothrond.
    Yes, I should have explained myself better. I was referring to the generals/leaders of these factions that are going to be in the game; if there will be these leaders, for example almost 'unknown' generals of Evil Men or Wood Elves (and I am very happy about it, more characters more lore inclusion and completeness), why shouldn't a mighty Noldorin Princess have the right to be included?

    Galadriel doesn't personally have a realm, but she is part of the House of Finarfin and its realm, like her brothers.
    In the game she could have the choice, as a character, to go to Doriath and be with Celeborn, with pros and cons; there are many solutions that you could think about.

    Sorry again for the long answer, but this matter, if you didn't notice, interests me very much

    Conclusion:

    ''Include me in the game!''


  3. #183

    Default Re: [Preview] Units

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanaro Curufinwe View Post
    Is it just me, or does Galadriel look rather pleased with herself?

    "Ha, I never liked Turgon's wife."
    "Sist-"
    "Shut up, Finrod."
    Interesting suggestion
    Though I don't want to think that Galadriel is that mean
    I was always interested in the relationship with her brothers, I think that Finrod was her most beloved one.

    I picture the 'Shut up, Finrod' scene more like this

    Last edited by DieWalküre; March 02, 2015 at 07:39 PM.

  4. #184

    Default Re: [Preview] Units

    Well Finrod being a thinker and a philosopher but also a born-leader (though less than his uncles and cousins), I believe Galadriel could have a deep relation with him, though Aegnor, the passionate warrior of the familly, could be more akin to her in the First Age. On the other hand Angrod is the guy that looks the more like Celeborn : he doesn't talk, he doesn't do anything important, he just sire a child who will be more important than him. Now since she moved to Doriath it is possible that her relationship with her bothers was not that good in the end...

    As for her being in the game we heard all your arguments. It is not necessay to insist. I was always doubtful about including her in the campaign since she will look weird and out-of-place in Doriath and (as I said) is supposed to have, at least, the opportunity to move East at some point. Before the war really reached Doriath. Besides the simple fact than even after writing her character Tolkien didn't gave her a realm (unlike lesser characters like Amrod & Amras or Aegnor & Angrod) shows that he wasn't willing to make her play an important role in the wars and politics of Beleriand.
    If I was willing to include her it will be as a young princess of the House of Finarfin to play in the custom battle and in one historical battle (Battle of Lammoth were she might have played a role if Tolkien ever detailed that event or in the Battle of Alqualondë along the Teleri). But since including women and including historical battles are difficult things I can't promise you anything. That will be Milner's decision and he allready have many other things to do that are more important to the game and to the experience of the players.

    And if I had to chose between including Haleth and Galadriel I will chose the first one without any hesitation !

  5. #185

    Default Re: [Preview] Units

    Now since she moved to Doriath it is possible that her relationship with her bothers was not that good in the end...
    Well, in the Silmarillion it is stated that she continued to visit her brothers in Nargothrond after her departure to Doriath.
    I think that probably Finrod was her most beloved one also for the circumstances in which he died and for the things he did to fight the evil; his death, caused by Sauron, was probably one of the most cruel and unmerciful, and he also helped a lot the cause of the good forces, staying true to his oath towards Beren, becoming a famous and noble example in the tales of the Elves.
    For his primary role in fighting the evil, a role that Galadriel inherits in the Third Age (exactly against Sauron), his sister may have suffered the most for his loss; the life of Galadriel is not so 'happy' anyway, since she is the only survivor among the Royals.

    As for her being in the game we heard all your arguments. It is not necessay to insist.
    Yes, I know But she is my favourite character (even though I am very excited for Eönwë) and I think she would be a perfect and valuable addition to the game, for her story and characteristics in the House of Finarfin, even for a brief presence in Beleriand; it would also be a very innovative choice, something that many Middle Earth Mods, like TATW, lack.
    But I was only intending to convince you, with all the arguments I had; you are the creators and you have the right to decide
    Unfortunately I don't know very much about modding (otherwise I would have created the concept of Galadriel myself), and I would really like to help you in any meaningful way.
    I like the idea about the Battle of the Lammoth, it would be a great battle to fight

    And if I had to chose between including Haleth and Galadriel I will chose the first one without any hesitation !
    Why not both, if you had the opportunity to do it? One doesn't necessarily exclude the other; and I always talked about inclusion (the more the better, also speaking about Melian and Lúthien)

    Last edited by DieWalküre; March 03, 2015 at 03:22 PM.

  6. #186

    Default Re: [Preview] Units

    Haleth is way out the mod's timeframe, so she is definitely out. I thought you knew that, Peredhel .

  7. #187

    Default Re: [Preview] Units

    As i said a few post ago and long time ago too, there aren't female characters in the mod...and please, stop this discussion because this thread is not to speak of Melian, Luthien and Galadriel.
    You can speak about the unit's previews, for other things open a new thread, please.

  8. #188

    Default Re: Main Discussion Thread

    Yes, this is a more appropriate place to discuss about her or them. And I surely didn't mean to spam on the 'Units' Preview' thread, I was replying to other comments.

    Nevertheless, I think that Lúthien, Galadriel and Melian deserve to be mentioned at least in the game, maybe on the descriptions.

    Milner or Bercor (apart from the lore and your decisions), is it so impossible to create female characters with the the RTW engine? Aren't there other ways to solve the problem?
    For example, if it is too difficult to include them, can't they be created as 'special' and 'unrepeatable' units (captains of their guard)? The game wouldn't recognise them inevitably as male relatives, and they would be immortal (units don't age).

  9. #189
    Feanaro Curufinwe's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Main Discussion Thread

    There isn't any feasible way that I can think of.
    It is such a quiet thing, to fall. But far more terrible is to admit it.
    Proud supporter and fan of Fourth Age: Total War

  10. #190

    Default Re: Main Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DieWalküre View Post
    Nevertheless, I think that Lúthien, Galadriel and Melian deserve to be mentioned at least in the game, maybe on the descriptions.
    Of course they would be mentioned on the mod in one way or the other, we wouldn't be such fools . Maybe they could even be made ancillaries that give nifty bonuses to the character who has them (Celeborn -ğ Galadriel; Thingol -ğ Melian and, eventually, Beren -ğ Luthien).

    Quote Originally Posted by DieWalküre View Post
    Milner or Bercor (apart from the lore and your decisions), is it so impossible to create female characters with the the RTW engine? Aren't there other ways to solve the problem?
    For example, if it is too difficult to include them, can't they be created as 'special' and 'unrepeatable' units (captains of their guard)? The game wouldn't recognise them inevitably as male relatives, and they would be immortal (units don't age).
    Yeah, it's completely impossible to have a true female character on the RTW engine. I mean, we could, hypothetically, create a character named Galadriel with a female portrait, but the game would treat her as a male. For example, it would marry another woman, have children with the said woman, it would have a man's voice when you click on her, either on campaign or battlemap, etc.

  11. #191

    Default Re: Main Discussion Thread

    What a pity
    For Galadriel I always think about the 'Chariots of the Amazons' concept in RTW (with all the differences of the situation).
    While I picture in my mind Melian or Lúthien like 'priestesses' that chant in battle (probably the best representation of spells in RTW).
    Anyway, if it isn't feasible, I root for them to be mentioned in descriptions or lore events

    Bercor, I support the idea of the ancillaries, and Melian, as an angel, would be a super ancillary
    Last edited by DieWalküre; March 04, 2015 at 06:13 PM.

  12. #192

    Default Re: Main Discussion Thread

    Nguni and Noldormighty : you'll be pleased to know that I did find an occurrence of two-handed swords in the lexic of The Lost Tales :

    Falc : "(1) slash, crack ; (2) ravine, flaw, cliff" (there is also falcon "a great sword used with both hands, a battle axe with two blades", transformed to give falchon, and get closer of the english falchion "sword").

    So now you can have two-handed swordsmen without worrying.

  13. #193

    Default Re: [Preview] Units

    Will there be differences between general's potential? for example Fingolfin being very powerful in combat.
    And will the Elves generals be immortal age wise?

  14. #194

    Default Re: [Preview] Units

    It's not possible to make individual characters stronger than their bodyguards (other than a couple of hitpoints) in the RTW engine. We could, hypothetically, make Fingolfin's bodyguard an unique unit, stronger than the other Noldor bodyguards. However, it's not really worth it, as it would a waste of an unit slot and the Noldor bodyguards are already very powerful in combat.

    Yes, the Elven characters will be immortal, age-wise.

  15. #195

    Default Re: [Preview] Units

    Quote Originally Posted by Bercor View Post

    Yes, the Elven characters will be immortal, age-wise.
    I don't want to start another discussion, but how will the 'genealogical tree' system work for every faction exactly?
    For example, what did you do with Angband? I assume that Morgoth or the Balrogs won't be able to have children

    Wouldn't be better to let only Men (good and evil) have descendants? The other evil generals (Morgoth, Sauron, the Balrogs and the other creatures) can't obviously give birth to anybody; and the Elves (Royal Family of the Noldor and the other Elves) are immortal and, apart from Angrod and Idril, didn't have many important descendants (or didn't have anyone at all), because they died during the war or their children did so in other circumstances (Lúthien, Orodreth,...).
    The Elven characters that 'appear' later in the game, could be included in their respective factions as adopted sons.

    It would be a possible way to balance all the factions; the Elves have very powerful leaders but 'limited' and 'not replaceable' if they die in battle, and the Men have naturally their offspring.

    Just some thoughts and questions of mine
    Last edited by DieWalküre; March 19, 2015 at 06:53 PM.

  16. #196

    Default Re: [Preview] Units

    We don't have family trees on the mod. The it works is that every character is scripted to appear exactly like it did on the Silmarillion. This allow us to avoid lore-abominable results, like, for example, Húrin having 8 children. Of course, characters will have a trait linking them to their family/house.
    Last edited by Bercor; March 19, 2015 at 04:38 PM.

  17. #197

    Default Re: [Preview] Units

    I understand, it's a logical solution.

    So, since every aspect is rightly scripted to follow at least the general lore, I assume there will be scripted marriages and someone will remain 'forever alone' (like Finrod)

  18. #198

    Default Re: [Preview] Units

    I believe so, but I'm not certain.

    Anyway, Milner was the creator of the system, so he is much more able than me to answer to that kind of questions .

  19. #199
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: [Preview] Units

    While I would be surprised marriages can be prevented for a character that way, I would be more surprised over why that path would be chosen.
    TW games are, in essence, 'What If'-games. In Rome you can take Pontus to global domination, in M2 Denmark can take the Holy Land and keep it from the Mongols, in TATW you can let Orcs of the Misty Mountains win and Sauron get the Ring, in Attila you can save the Western Roman Empire, etc etc.

    The task of the creators is to set up the start and features of the game from lore, then it is up to the player what he/she shall do with it. It's perfectly sufficent Finrod start without a wife. If the player control Nargothrond and want to heed lore - just do not marry Finrod to anyone.
    If the player do not care for that, it should be his or hers choice.
    In DCI:LA Gil-galad don't start with a wife, but it is up to the player if he/she want the line of Finarfin to live on or not, it's a What If-game where he may survive Mordor's fall at any rate, or Mordor may win, or Galadriel become a Dark Queen of the world.

    It would be equally improper to in this game auto-destroy the Nargothrond faction in year 495, or script kill Finrod 465 just because "that's when he in lore died in Tol-in-Gaurhoth", when the player may at that point went on ramapge with him, kicked Sauron's butt out of the isle and are besieging Angband's gates already.

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  20. #200

    Default Re: [Preview] Units

    Well, while I agree with much that you say, Ngugi, you've got to keep in mind two things:

    1. The RTW engine is different than MTW2 Kingdoms, and, as such, we can't have the Teutonic family-tree. This means that, if we were to use normal family-trees, then it would be impossible to prevent, for example, Morgoth from marrying and having children. As you imagine, such thing would be a major immersion break. We wouldn't be able to restrict the Elven birth rate which (together with the enormous number of Elven characters at the start of the game) would mean that there would be a awful lot of Elven generals coming of age, what's if far from ideal.

    2. While on the DCI (and the Second Age) you have all the important characters from the beggining (I mean there's no one asking to play with King Eldacar and his bodyguard), our mod (and the Silmarillion) spans for a gigantic period of time with various major characters spread through the years. Everybody wants to play with characters such as Túrin, Tuor or Earendil, and, personally, I think the mod wouldn't be complete without them. The only way to coherently allow this is through the scripted characters.

    Of course I agree that TW games are essentially "what-if" games, we won't restrict the player liberty in nothing other than the births (which, anyway, the player didn't had much to begin with). However, we feel that this measure is important in order to experiment the Wars of the Silmarills the closest way possible to the books.
    Last edited by Bercor; March 19, 2015 at 09:26 PM.

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