Main Discussion Thread

[Tar-Falassion]

I am nearly certain that Thuringwethil was confirmed to be an Umaia, as she is presented as the first of the Vampire-Bats, in the same fashion that Draugluin is the Sire of the Werewolves, but is mentioned as being able to shapeshift to her "Bat" form (as opposed to Draugluin, who is trapped in his wolf body. (well, i admit that most of my convictions about her Maia nature are based on the many fanfics with Sauron/Thuringwethil romance back in the Timeless Halls and in Utumno and Angband. Twisted.)

But indeed, she was more a messenger between Tol-in-Gaurhoth and Angband than a real fighter, and a diplomat role would be very appropriate (much like the Mouth of Sauron for Mordor in TATW)

And you're god damn right DieWalkure, those characters (Melian, Galadriel) never really played an active role in the War of the Jewels; the former did protect Doriath with her Girdle but she was never accounted as a fighting general - and so little is known about Galadriel's whereabouts during the First Age, I think that they would perform great as diplomats for Doriath
When it comes to Luthien however, I would see her as a spy more than a diplomat - however, as I'm sure that Bercor and his team have very special plan for Beren and the Quest of the Silmaril, I wouldn't try to guess too far

[DieWalküre]

I am nearly certain that Thuringwethil was confirmed to be an Umaia, as she is presented as the first of the Vampire-Bats, in the same fashion that Draugluin is the Sire of the Werewolves, but is mentioned as being able to shapeshift to her "Bat" form (as opposed to Draugluin, who is trapped in his wolf body. (well, i admit that most of my convictions about her Maia nature are based on the many fanfics with Sauron/Thuringwethil romance back in the Timeless Halls and in Utumno and Angband. Twisted.)

But indeed, she was more a messenger between Tol-in-Gaurhoth and Angband than a real fighter, and a diplomat role would be very appropriate (much like the Mouth of Sauron for Mordor in TATW)

And you're god damn right DieWalkure, those characters (Melian, Galadriel) never really played an active role in the War of the Jewels; the former did protect Doriath with her Girdle but she was never accounted as a fighting general - and so little is known about Galadriel's whereabouts during the First Age, I think that they would perform great as diplomats for Doriath
When it comes to Luthien however, I would see her as a spy more than a diplomat - however, as I'm sure that Bercor and his team have very special plan for Beren and the Quest of the Silmaril, I wouldn't try to guess too far

I completely agree with you I think that every character plays its own role in the War of the Jewels, being it minor or significant.
And everyone, due to the 'unfinished' and 'multiform' nature of the Silmarillion has its own point of view.

[Tar-Falassion]

Yes, that's the good part of having the Silmarillion presented under that mythological, nearly biblic form - it can easily be interpreted the way we want

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

Would be most spot on

I think that if the player were to get the most use out of her, she probably should be an ancillary. Because, to be honest, diplomats in Total War games are kind of useless.

[Tar-Falassion]

I think that if the player were to get the most use out of her, she probably should be an ancillary. Because, to be honest, diplomats in Total War games are kind of useless.

Well, except when you want to obtain maps, trade rights, tribute, ceasefire, new region without having to fight for it, ...

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

Well, except when you want to obtain maps, trade rights, tribute, ceasefire, new region without having to fight for it, ...

Do you truly believe those things will be possible in a Silmarillion mod for the Angband factions?

[Bercor]

While some factions like the three Noldor Houses and the Sindar might not accept to negotiate with the Dark Lord, the same cannot be said for the Edain and Easterlings...

[DieWalküre]

It's true. Honestly there isn't so much space for diplomacy in Beleriand, for the very nature of the War of the Jewels and that time.
There could be though some diplomatic relationships between the Eldar and the other 'good factions' (Edain, Dwarves), or among the Elves themselves (the 'Wise ones' and the sons of Fëanor).

Even though, if these characters were really included as diplomats, it would be more a way to make them have an 'active' and 'real' role in the game, rather than making them really 'useful' characters.

[DieWalküre]

I personally (playing with the House of Finarfin) would refuse any type of alliance or commercial relationship with the House of Fëanor

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

There could be though some diplomatic relationships between the Eldar and the other 'good factions' (Edain, Dwarves), or among the Elves themselves (the 'Wise ones' and the sons of Fëanor).

*Raises eyebrow slightly*

I personally (playing with the House of Finarfin) would refuse any type of alliance or commercial relationship with the House of Fëanor

Jealous of the Fëanorian bling? You should be.

[DieWalküre]

I know, I don't like them very much (can't you say? XD); they cause almost all the troubles.

''Valar gonna hate''

I think that 'someone' took it too bad, it was 'just' a strand of golden-silver, radiant, legendary and hallowed by the Two Trees of Valinor hair XD

[Bercor]

Gangsta Fëanor looks totally like Nicholas Cage:

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

"Put the Silmaril back in the box!"

[Peredhel]

About those cultural/religious buildings, inspiration could also be taken from Third Age Total War, in this one Elves cultural buildings are art-related. Things like "concert hall" or "singing hall" could be a good "religious building" to implement for the Laiquendi of Ossiriand, for instance, or even Doriath.

Well in order for the mod to be more original we like to take inspiration from Tolkien himself when possible. I don't imagine Elves as making concerts though they certainly sing together. Imladris being a mix of Sindarin and Noldorin culture the Hall of Fire could be a building for both factions. As for the Laiquendi I imagine they'll sing more easilly outside in some sort of Korin (a circle of tress or stone mentionned in Tolkien's earlier work) similar to Entmoot.

Plus, I love the idea of Archs in memory of late leaders, but what would be even more interesting imo would have been to take this idea further and use the concept of marvels, with the possibility of winning on the cultural plan by erecting several buildings of great importance -- although I admit that it doesn't stick with the concept of survival of the "Good" factions that this mod is about.

Well as you coinceved it yourself I don't think that Morgoth would have said "Ho these elven cities are so beautiful I just have to admit my defeat and leave !" Besides the real marvel of Beleriand are the Silmarils.

It's Silmarillion - Total War : not Age of the Silmarils !

Yes, I have never thought about this option. If Thuringwethil, Melian, Lúthien and Galadriel were diplomats, there would not be anymore problems regarding the genealogical tree.

Well since Galadriel travelled from Doriath to Nargothrond and from Nargothrond to Doriath she could be included as a diplomat but Melian and Lúthien stayed in Doriath almost all their lives long so there is no argument for me to include them as diplomats. Please stop with these elven females : they are great characters but you won't see them on the battlefield.

I am nearly certain that Thuringwethil was confirmed to be an Umaia, as she is presented as the first of the Vampire-Bats, in the same fashion that Draugluin is the Sire of the Werewolves, but is mentioned as being able to shapeshift to her "Bat" form (as opposed to Draugluin, who is trapped in his wolf body. (well, i admit that most of my convictions about her Maia nature are based on the many fanfics with Sauron/Thuringwethil romance back in the Timeless Halls and in Utumno and Angband. Twisted.)

That's all we know about Thuringwëthil :

He turned aside therefore at Sauron’s isle, as they ran northward again, and he took thence the ghastly wolfhame of Draugluin, and the bat-fell of Thuringwëthil. She was the messenger of Sauron, and was wont to fly in vampire’s form to Angband ; and her greatfingered wings were barbed at each joint’s end with and iron claw. (Quenta Silmarillion)

And horror was in his glance as he saw upon his flank a bat-like creature clinging with creased wings. Then howling under the moon he leaped down the hill, and the bat wheeled and flittered above him. (Quenta Silmarillion)

‘Woman of Secret Shadow’, the messenger of Sauron from Tol-in-Gaurhoth who took the form of a great bat, and in whose shape Lúthien entered Angband. (Silmarillion - Index of names)

In the Lay the bat-wings are only said to be such as bear up Thu's messengers, and are not associated with a particular or chief messenger (Thuringwethil, 'messenger of Sauron'). (Lays of Beleriand)

[From that passage I think all messengers of Sauron should be in bat-shape but Thuringwethil will be the most skilled]

'A lawful errand here me brought ; from Thu's dark mansions have I sought, from Taur-na-Fuin's shade I fare to stand before thy mighty chair! '
'Thy name, thou shrieking waif, thy name ! Tidings enough from Thu there came but short while since. What would he now? Why send such messenger as thou ? '
'Thuringwethil I am, who cast a shadow o'er the face aghast of the sallow moon in the doomed land of shivering Beleriand.'
(Lays of Beleriand)

So even though she is not mentionned as a Maia I say that's likely since (as you said) she seem to be able to change shape just like Sauron. However it is never said that she was the first of her kind or that Drauglin wasn't able to change shape as well.

When it comes to Luthien however, I would see her as a spy more than a diplomat - however, as I'm sure that Bercor and his team have very special plan for Beren and the Quest of the Silmaril, I wouldn't try to guess too far.

Yes we have so she won't be a spy, neither a general nor a diplomat. None of this roles fits her.

What I am getting at is that folk will play this game because they delight in the era and peoples of it, and do want to get their own shot at 'writing the history of Beleriand'. Playing Hitlum I do not play to see a celibate Fingon get mashed into pulp by Gothmog and his realm lost, but I play to have him survive, Hitlum triumph and Fingon meeting a pretty Elf and get baby Elves that carry on the heritage of the mighty Fingolfin.

Though I understand your speech you don't have the same vision than us : the First Age between the Dagor Bragollach and the War of Wrath is not a time of peace and is not made for mating. Unlike the Fourth Age in which tractations and politics are really important here the game will focus on battles and alliances. The econmy will be present as we know that Beleriand was quite active in that regard but for Elves it is not a time for marriage or procreation (they usually don't have children in time of war).
So what you can change is more to have Fingon (or Fingolfin) wins the war against Angband and conquer new lands for Hithlum (may be developping in Nevrast or in Dorthonion) and finnaly getting Morgoth out of Thangordrim himself. The "meeting a pretty wife and getting baby" thing is more in the aftergame here saddly.

My point is, there should be a balance there between what the creator(s) set up, how they deem they should restrict the player, and what is handed to the player to create the experience he/she is there for. To restrict Finrod from being allowed to marry would, in my opinion as a future player of this game, be one such instance of to go to far with restrictions, however well-intentioned the reasons, as, if I want to play as the book is written, it's my option to simply not marry him, and if I want to create my own history (as I at any rate do, playing) it should be my choice to marry him.

Well there will still be important decisions to take : as a Man or a Dwarf you can choose to side with the Elves or with Morgoth or to remain neutral (the Edain and the Dwarves of Belegost will of course be more likely to help the good-guys but it's not certain). As a Noldor you can rally your cousins or began feud with them if you think you are more likely to win that way. As a Laiquendi you can ally with the Dwarves or the Sindar or even the Noldor but you can also choose to remain an isolated people counting on its own ressources to make it through these dark times. Doriath and Nargothrond can remain more or less neutral as well. As a servant of the Dark Lord you can decide where you will build your empire and how close of Morgoth you will remain. Whatever the faction you can use your ressources to build greater armies or use it in diplomacy to create greater alliances or corrupt your ennemies. All these things (and many others) make many room for many different games I believe but yeah : we didn't not intend the mod to be as much as a sandbox than the vanilla and a war between the House of Finarfin and Fingolfin is unlikely except if the player started it.

[DieWalküre]

Well since Galadriel travelled from Doriath to Nargothrond and from Nargothrond to Doriath she could be included as a diplomat but Melian and Lúthien stayed in Doriath almost all their lives long so there is no argument for me to include them as diplomats. Please stop with these elven females : they are great characters but you won't see them on the battlefield.

I know, I have been writing 'quite' a lot about them; and yes, they are really great characters.
But I did it because I really like them (especially Galadriel), and I think it would be a significant and very good thing for the sake of the game, if they were included as actual characters in the Mod (and not 'only' as ancillaries). They are mighty and important beings (on another level compared to other elven, dwarven or human characters, with all the respect for the other people of Beleriand); for example, Melian is a Maia (the only angel on the good side) and a fundamental pillar in the balance of powers in the region.

Since, though, Melian and her daughter will have an important and 'tangible' role in the game, from what I understood (the Girdle of Melian will be present in the system of the game, and there will be a surprise for Beren and Lúthien), I fear that Galadriel could have a lesser and diminished role, and she obviously wouldn't deserve it.

I think that she doesn't necessarily have to be portrayed as a warrior or seen in the battlefield (even though she could have done it, as one of the 'Royals' of the Noldor, and this is 'only' my desire ), but she clearly 'needs' a more important role than being an ancillary, if you really wanted to 'feel' the character and play it.
I perfectly understand, however, the difficulty of creating female generals or characters and that the game will start at the end of the Siege of Angband, so almost 400 years after the Dagor Aglareb (the only period in which Galadriel could have hypothetically been involved in some battles.

Furthermore, remember that Galadriel was not a young and 'harmless' princess at that time; when she arrived in Beleriand she already had been dwelling in Valinor (especially in the Gardens of the Vala Irmo) for more than 3000 years and she was thus personally taught by the Valar and the Maiar of Aman (maybe even by the Vala Tulkas, for what concerns fighting in combat). Obviously the most important period of her life is her more-than-7000-year 'exile' in Middle Earth, when she becomes a real 'queen' (though not formally recognised) and does what she had desired the most, ruling a realm on her own; but, when she arrives in Beleriand, she already is a 'force of nature', as her other relatives

Nevertheless, I really like and support the idea of her as a 'special' diplomat for the House of Finarfin (solving thus many problems of the game about female generals or the genealogical tree), that can make treaties or alliances with the other good factions; Galadriel, in fact, has the capability of appearing as a truly reliable and admirable being and , thus, of even 'softening' the hearts of the ones who are not, by their nature, necessarily benevolent or sympathetic towards the Noldor or the Elves in general (she is for example almost unanimously admired by the Dwarves, the Men and the Teleri).
She, as a diplomat, could then 'disappear' at some point of the game, choosing to flee from Beleriand, after the destruction of Doriath and the huge attack of Morgoth in the region, following the Nirnaeth Arnoediad; even though I would like it very much if she could be together with her father and brothers in the War of Wrath.
I also recently read again some passages of the Silmarillion, and I found that Galadriel often, as you wrote, travels from Nargothrond to Doriath and vice versa, and that her brothers go to Doriath as well to visit her (probably they are the closest between themselves, compared to the other Houses); the role of diplomat or emissary would thus be perfectly suitable for her

This is my opinion and my personal hope, and remember that I always want to discuss and I would never try to dictate something, being not also a member of the Quenta Silmarillion Team; I will stop anyway expressing my ideas for Galadriel (discussion concluded), as you say, to be more focused on other things

I officially root for the 'diplomat' concept, and if you managed to include the Lady of Light in this way, I think that it would be a wonderful element in the Mod

Speaking about fantasy, this is Galadriel leading an army against the Orcs (forget the armours of the 16th century XD), riding in the free fields of Beleriand (in this case I would violate the lore all my life)



And Galadriel as an admirable diplomat or ambassador for the House of Finarfin

[Bercor]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Infidel144]

Furthermore, remember that Galadriel was not a young and 'harmless' princess at that time; when she arrived in Beleriand she already had been dwelling in Valinor (especially in the Gardens of the Vala Irmo) for more than 3000 years

No, (doing some quick math) born 1362, death of the Trees 1495. Galadriel was about 1300 years old or less at the time of the rebellion of the Noldor.

[DieWalküre]

No, (doing some quick math) born 1362, death of the Trees 1495. Galadriel was about 1300 years old or less at the time of the rebellion of the Noldor.

Actually we could be both right, since, as for many other events or elements of the Legendarium, we are still talking about Tolkien

Your statement takes for granted that 1 Year of the Trees (or Year of the Valar) is equal to a bit more than 9 Years of the Sun ('our' common years), and this is (correct me if I'm wrong) the final conversion of the computation of Time that Christopher Tolkien decided to choose, out of many other versions that Tolkien initially or later conceived for his writings.

I've seen and read about another version, according to which 1 Year of the Trees is equal to 144 Years of the Sun, after the author thought that 9 Years of the Sun were not enough for the holy ages before the Sun and the Moon; Tolkien was never very clear about the fundamental and essential topic of the 'Ancient' Time, making it thus open to various interpretations.

I personally think that, even also to preserve an 'aura' of ancient mystery about the ancestral days of the World and the dawn of the Elves, considering also the perception of the Firstborn of Time (that is naturally completely different from the one of Men, even more different if we talk about the First Elves or the Eldar of Aman), we should choose the second version of the conversion of Time, that would make the Noldor and the other Elves far older at the beginning of their exile in Middle Earth, when the First Age starts (Galadriel and her cousins would be more than 9000 years old when they arrive in Beleriand); since I consider it a bit too much, I think it would be reasonable
to think that 1 Year of the Trees is more or less equal to 20-50 Years of the Sun, making the Noldor more than 3000 years old (as I wrote in my previous comment) when they come to Middle Earth.

But, even if they had been more than 9000 years old at the beginning of the War of the Jewels, you have to consider that the Elves (Eldar) that live in splendour and in immortal lands (as they do in Aman), far from the ageing and decay of the World, they basically do not feel at all the flow of the time and 1000 years are quite insignificant for them; they also achieve experience and strength by living and 'feeling' directly important events in their life, as fights, battles, wars and the struggles they have to face, making thus 1 year spent in Beleriand during the War of the Jewels equal to 100 years spent in the eternal bliss of Aman (and that's why, I think, the Noldor truly 'emancipate' themselves and reach the status of royals and powerful elven leaders only when they arrive in Middle Earth and fight the greatest and darkest enemy).
These (ruling free lands and fighting) are also part of the reasons for which the Noldor chose the exile from the Undying Lands; and Galadriel, in fact, only manages to rule a realm on her own and become a 'de facto' elven queen (fulfilling thus her dreams and desires) in Middle Earth in the Third Age, making her more-than-7000-year permanence in this continent her most important and dynamic period of her life.

Nevertheless, if we accept the version you chose, Galadriel had already dwelt in Aman for more than 1000 years when she arrived in Middle Earth, making her more powerful than the majority of the people of Beleriand at that time (Sindar, Wood Elves, Dwarves or Orcs)

[Infidel144]

Actually we could be both right, since, as for many other events or elements of the Legendarium, we are still talking about Tolkien

Your statement takes for granted that 1 Year of the Trees (or Year of the Valar) is equal to a bit more than 9 Years of the Sun ('our' common years), and this is (correct me if I'm wrong) the final conversion of the computation of Time that Christopher Tolkien decided to choose, out of many other versions that Tolkien initially or later conceived for his writings.

This is the version Tolkien used when he wrote the Annals, which is where I took the dates from.

I've seen and read about another version, according to which 1 Year of the Trees is equal to 144 Years of the Sun, after the author thought that 9 Years of the Sun were not enough for the holy ages before the Sun and the Moon; Tolkien was never very clear about the fundamental and essential topic of the 'Ancient' Time, making it thus open to various interpretations.

In MT Tolkien 'proposed' the 144 years conversion with a suggestion it could be put in place directly. However, I don't think that it was actually implemented.

I personally think that, even also to preserve an 'aura' of ancient mystery about the ancestral days of the World and the dawn of the Elves, considering also the perception of the Firstborn of Time (that is naturally completely different from the one of Men, even more different if we talk about the First Elves or the Eldar of Aman), we should choose the second version of the conversion of Time, that would make the Noldor and the other Elves far older at the beginning of their exile in Middle Earth, when the First Age starts (Galadriel and her cousins would be more than 9000 years old when they arrive in Beleriand); since I consider it a bit too much, I think it would be reasonable
to think that 1 Year of the Trees is more or less equal to 20-50 Years of the Sun, making the Noldor more than 3000 years old (as I wrote in my previous comment) when they come to Middle Earth.

It would be more the 19,000 years. Whether you consider it reasonable is beside the point. I don't think that is a choice you get to make. (Indeed by your personal modification of Tolkien's suggestion, you are demonstrating the problem with implementing it). Hence why I would stick with the figures giving in the Annals.

[DieWalküre]

This is the version Tolkien used when he wrote the Annals, which is where I took the dates from.

In MT Tolkien 'proposed' the 144 years conversion with a suggestion it could be put in place directly. However, I don't think that it was actually implemented.
It would be more the 19,000 years. Whether you consider it reasonable is beside the point. I don't think that is a choice you get to make. (Indeed by your personal modification of Tolkien's suggestion, you are demonstrating the problem with implementing it). Hence why I would stick with the figures giving in the Annals.

Sorry, maybe I didn't explain myself very well; when I mentioned Christopher Tolkien it's because he was the one that 'reshaped' and recollected the writings of his father, and published the 'official' version of the Silmarillion, implying thus that the type of conversion that you referred to is the canonical one (as you rightly wrote).

I, then, explained why I like more the other type of conversion and I tried to explain the possible reasons behind it, since Tolkien eventually had said to prefer it over the canonical one (even though he had not implemented it); maybe I got carried away by lore explanations and my deep interest for the Eldar

Nonetheless, the main and fundamental point of my previous comment was talking about the might of Galadriel and her cousins at their arrival in Beleriand, since they had been dwelling in Aman for over 1000 years in Aman.