Shield wall and if/why it should be in

[The Walrus]

Topic. I think it should definitely be in the Roman armies since it looks like how they fought. Hoplites on the other hand, I'm not sure.(I haven't played as them)

[florin80]

At what mod exactly is this directed at? Or is it a general question?

[The Walrus]

At what mod exactly is this directed at? Or is it a general question?

General question I'll try to get a closer picture. In shieldwall the principes hold their gladius's out like they did historically.

[Maximus Lazero]

Yeah, from one source I found, it showed that (although this may be an Imperial strategy), Roman soldiers would hold their shields in front of them in a wall, waiting for the enemy to charge. It was to maintain this shield wall that legionaries were wore their swords their right side and were trained to draw the sword from there; it was a much more compact draw that would not get caught in their shields or disrupt the rest of the formation. As the enemy charged (or I guess as they charged), the soldiers would, as one, step forward and shover the middle of their shields (with the metal cap) into their opponents' face or chest. This would generally stun or disable the enemy long enough for the legionaries to draw their shield back and lung forward with their gladius held parallel to the ground so it would pass between the ribs and into the vital organs. When their enemy fell, the Romans would advance, and most wounded would be trampled beneath their metal-studded sandals (the wounded enemy).

[The Walrus]

Yeah, from one source I found, it showed that (although this may be an Imperial strategy), Roman soldiers would hold their shields in front of them in a wall, waiting for the enemy to charge. It was to maintain this shield wall that legionaries were wore their swords their right side and were trained to draw the sword from there; it was a much more compact draw that would not get caught in their shields or disrupt the rest of the formation. As the enemy charged (or I guess as they charged), the soldiers would, as one, step forward and shover the middle of their shields (with the metal cap) into their opponents' face or chest. This would generally stun or disable the enemy long enough for the legionaries to draw their shield back and lung forward with their gladius held parallel to the ground so it would pass between the ribs and into the vital organs. When their enemy fell, the Romans would advance, and most wounded would be trampled beneath their metal-studded sandals (the wounded enemy).

This worked very well against barbarians who fought in a loose formation to wield there huge swords. The barbains would raise their sword for a slash and the legionaire would but his shield above him(blocking the enemie's sword) and stab him.

[Quinn Inuit]

From what I've read of hoplites, they definitely fought in a shield wall.

I'm pretty sure the Romans did, too. Is it worth giving them that or testudo, do you think?

[The Walrus]

From what I've read of hoplites, they definitely fought in a shield wall.

I'm pretty sure the Romans did, too. Is it worth giving them that or testudo, do you think?

You can give them both but you won't have loose formation. Hoplites fought in a phalanx. Just a different one then macedon's.

[JoeyJubb]

About the hoplites in shield wall. Though it was probably never called a "shield-wall", they did fight in a tightly packed formation. I've found that when greek hoplites are in the shield-wall they will push through the enemy formation and split it into two, much like the greeks used to do in the past.

So, while the name shield-wall may be inaccurate; the fighting style it creates is accurate.

[Belgae]

I changed the loose formation for the SPR-shieldwall for most of my Roman units (not the auxilia though).
I don't think loose formation is historically accurate anyhow, and the advantages of the 'shield-wall' totaly outweigh the saved lives in loose formation.
It makes for an extra challenge to try and take out that artillery before they tear up your battle-line!

Did you know the british tribes learned fighting in a shieldwall because of their Roman conquerers? One should not forget that the Romans were all smaller in stature than say the barbarian tribes. They had to make up for that through a disciplined battle line. I like seeing my legions packed in a closed line and bravely taking the brunt of a mad barbarian charge, and then slowly rolling over them...

[The Walrus]

I changed the loose formation for the SPR-shieldwall for most of my Roman units (not the auxilia though).
I don't think loose formation is historically accurate anyhow, and the advantages of the 'shield-wall' totaly outweigh the saved lives in loose formation.
It makes for an extra challenge to try and take out that artillery before they tear up your battle-line!

Did you know the british tribes learned fighting in a shieldwall because of their Roman conquerers? One should not forget that the Romans were all smaller in stature than say the barbarian tribes. They had to make up for that through a disciplined battle line. I like seeing my legions packed in a closed line and bravely taking the brunt of a mad barbarian charge, and then slowly rolling over them...

The barbarians did adapt to Roman ways while fighting them. Shieldwall was one of the things that gave an advantage to the Romans. Their gladius was a short sword while the barbarians use long swords(not all the time). As long as the shieldwall stood and the barbarians couldn't spread out and surround the legionaires their often advantage in numbers and weapon length disappeared. I got some of this from a series(historical fiction) called under the eagle(that is the first book) and in almost every battle the Romans form a shieldwall(this guy is a historian)

[Quinn Inuit]

That's interesting. Maybe we should ask Sinhuet to make shield wall the default hoplite and Roman formation, then, to force the AI to behave more realistically.

[The Walrus]

That's interesting. Maybe we should ask Sinhuet to make shield wall the default hoplite and Roman formation, then, to force the AI to behave more realistically.

I'll peak a look in his modified ai file for RTRPE and see if we could do it. Though we could ask him to update it to his latest release and add it but I would prefer we do it to save him time

EDIT: Looking through files for less then 10 seconds and find this

	1
			max_units			7
			unit_type			phalanx  1.0
			default_melee_state	defend
			unit_density		close
			block_formation		line

Notice the bold phalanx. Does that autimatically make them do phalanx? Perhaps that is how they set it up in vanilla so it could be impossible to do that but I"m not at all positive about that.

[Pre]

From what I've heard, the boss of their shield (The thick metal center), was in its own way as useful as pila when charging or defending. I've read that another effective tactic was to stab upwards through the solar plexus and avoid the rib cage altogether. And sword length really doesen't have much to do with it I think in terms of a short one being a disadvantage, Romans used the gladius stabbing sword because they could get up close and dirty inside the swinging radius of barbarian long swords. And noone has yet mentioned that Roman Legionaires were amazingly fit, (I guess marching and setting up camp every day with a 50 pound pack with extensive training and drills does that). For their time, they were required to be tall too, so I'm not so sure about the stature thing mentioned. Either way, they were clearly better trained and diciplined, (something about getting stoned for routing does that I guess) than mmost of their adversaries. Easily adaptable formations, good armor, and decent fringe benifits for soldiers (such as a pension plan) to boot.

All the above makes the perfect BCE soldier?

[Maximus Lazero]

As I recall, our good friend/hero/traitor from antiquity, Julius Ceaser, wrote that, during one fight with the Gauls, they formed a sheild wall. Well, it was here that they discovered just how bad an idea that was against Roman pilla. Ceaser claimed that the pilla drove right through the overlapping sheilds and, because they would bend or break on impact, the Gauls had to drop their sheilds in order to fight effectively (I'm sure everyone's heard that one), leaving them morbidly open to more pilla, arrows, stones, sctums, Roman swords, etc.

[Pre]

Yea I've heard that pila were great weapons for the Romans, and that the combination of iron tip and bending middle disabled shields and/or wounded attackers and the bent tip prevented the weapons from being trown back. No shield against a big strong guy with a big shield and sharp sword covered in quality armor is a bad thing

[The Walrus]

All 3 posts ring true. Think of the pila like an "ancient assault rifle" which it was.

[Maximus Lazero]

All 3 posts ring true. Think of the pila like an "ancient assault rifle" which it was.

LoL, now I've got the image of a legionaire gunning down some Gauls with an AK-47....I should do a photoshop of that....

[Belgae]

I got some of this from a series(historical fiction) called under the eagle(that is the first book) and in almost every battle the Romans form a shieldwall(this guy is a historian)

thought you were talking about the Roma sub Rosa series of Steven Saylor, but Under the Eagle seems to be from the series Cato by Simon Scarrow. Thanks to you, I'll have to spend a part of my gaming-budget on books again...

[Locky]

As I recall, our good friend/hero/traitor from antiquity, Julius Ceaser, wrote that, during one fight with the Gauls, they formed a sheild wall. Well, it was here that they discovered just how bad an idea that was against Roman pilla. Ceaser claimed that the pilla drove right through the overlapping sheilds and, because they would bend or break on impact, the Gauls had to drop their sheilds in order to fight effectively (I'm sure everyone's heard that one), leaving them morbidly open to more pilla, arrows, stones, sctums, Roman swords, etc.

The Romans found out how bad it was fight using a shield wall fighting the Thracians, and Dacians, with their Rhomphias, and Falxs.

As they would often swing the falx in an under-arm motion, so it would hit the bottem of the legionaries shield, smashing it out've his hands, and/or hacking off his leg, or hand, if he tried to hold on to it, if he let go, he would no doubt cop the blade in his head. They also brought the falx down over-hand motion, so it would cut through the shield, take off his hand, or slice through his helmet. Ironically, thier shield wall, was supposed to be effective againest numerous un-armoured enemies, who used slashing weapons. What they didn't count on, was having the shield hacked to pieces, and any attempt to stab out, would result in the legionarie losing his arm. Hence the issuing of banded arm, armour, and greaves, and reinforced helmet, and shield.

But shield wall, would historically suit the Romans, and make them more vunerable to my Bastarnae.

[Invoker]

LoL, now I've got the image of a legionaire gunning down some Gauls with an AK-47....I should do a photoshop of that....

Funnily enough I run an RPG in a Renaissance era world with an empire that is for all intents and purposes the Roman Empire, and the legionaires use muskets...It's about as badass as you would expect.