{DIK} Discussion

[Jurand of Cracow]

Aneirin,
I keep my fingers crossed for you to make the final effort and to finish this mod :-)
JoC

[Antonius]

I had a bit of time to play this version of the mod on the weekend and I must really say that it is glorious. 5.0 already was great but this is even better.
I don't know where to start: It is beautifully balanced, historically accurate, graphically stunning.... and in 4-5 hours I didn't experience one bug or problem.

T H A N K Y O U !!!!!!!

[Doezim]

I have a problem with the ultimate version. I use Swiss Confederacy when I am trying to end the turn 190 to 191, it says "Medieval 2: Total War encountered an unspecified error and will now exit," do you guys know how to fix it??

[Elendil 03]

Maybe you can share with us a look into the log file?

[Hyval the Emolga]

Heyo, there any way for me to take out (or lessen the severity of) the "Home Region, Border Region, Far0ff" restriction system?

Playing as Switzerland I can't take a single step outside of the Alps without losing all access to my troops, and I know that's kind of a realism thing, but, is there a way for me to dig into the .txt to take that out?

[Doezim]

Maybe you can share with us a look into the log file?

What do you mean by that?? I mean where is that "log" file?? What is the address??

[KingRobert1st]

I started playing this wonderful mod with the Republic of Venice... having two armies in the field kills my finances.
There a note that comes out when opening the diplomacy menu listing various upkeep costs for being in provinces, abroad or in sieges. ButI don't understand if the costs listed are for single units, armies or what.
These costs don't seem to be considered in the finance menu, making hard to plan.
How does the mechanic work exactly ?

[Hyval the Emolga]

For realism's sake, the mod has certain modifiers for if you have an army on the field at home, in a foreign land, or besieging a settlement. Same with agents, I believe. It adds 1000 or so every turn that you're besieging a settlement, and yeah, it's super crippling and it doesn't tell you anywhere it happens.

Look in the forum-- somewhere in there there's a mod that removes that script that does away with that thing, called "0/0/0" or something. If you can't find it, I can link it to you.

[Der Böse Wolf]

For those who played this mod in its latest version, what are the difficulty recommendations for Battle and Campaign?

Thanks.

[Jurand of Cracow]

For those who played this mod in its latest version, what are the difficulty recommendations for Battle and Campaign?

I actually have the same question ;-)
Have you tried it, DBW? Do you know which factions are most ready to be played?

[Der Böse Wolf]

Hey Jurand, it's always a pleasure to find you on similar mods, we both have the same vision and aspirations when it come to historical gameplay.

I did try the mod and went for my trusted H/H formula (the only time I use VH/VH is with SS6,4 BGR V, which for me is the best mod for the medieval era).

I played the Kingdom of Spain (well the Spanish possessions in Italy, led by the Viceroy - the Spanish King is not in the game).

The campaign is slow, money is tight and it plays really well, just the way I like it.
There are many scripted events to reflect the historical timeline and the player must decide to accept or refuse to do certain actions. All have different effects and it is pretty well done.
I had to get used to playing Pike and Shot warfare, as I am not a particular fan of gunpowder, but the primitive handguns and arquebusiers are fun to play with and I enjoyed it really well. I had to research Pike and shot formations so I can use the beautifully skinned troops effectively.

The king of Spain sends reinforcements from the mainland when you do certain acts and it is very well done.

Money is a problem, I am in debt most of the time (I do impose financial house rules, like no trade rights with factions who are enemies with my allies, I don't send merchants to resources outside of the territories I control, I don't sell map information).

I have also military house rules (the same ones I talked about in the thread you did about House Rues in the SHIP forum) mainly:
- only one navy,
- only FL and FH can lead armies,
- only one spy
- only one diplomat
- only one assassin
- only one missionary priest (a priest sent to a territory that is not mine to spread religion)
- no retraining,
- only governors are allowed to build and recruit in their own province (FM get province traits like dukes and marquis which is great as I can RP and manage them - also the viceroy and his heir - called Governor - can't get territorial deeds, which is also great. Speaking of territorial deeds, they cannot be given from a FM member to another and a FM cannot have more than one deed, I like it ...),
- if a governor is outside a city, tax rates should be always at normal (losing potential revenue),
- captains can only lead one unit (for troop movement between settlements or to reinforce an army). This has an effect on finances as well as armies in the field generate costs. So if I am sending 3 units from city A to city B, I send 3 separate captain-lead units, which will triple my field army costs. I could merge them and have a 3-unit stack, which reduce the field cost to 1, but I refuse as armies of more than one unit should led by a general in my rules.
- Troops can only embark on navies when the navy is docked in a city with a port. This makes logistics a major factor (as well as more historically correct) as troops must all gather in the city to embark, which makes planning and timing very important, as well as raises costs of troops going to the city (remember I use single stack units when no generals are present. This means that if I want to reduce field costs, I should merge 4 units together and have them lead by a general from the city they are stationed in to the city where I am gathering troop to embark. And having the general leave his city means that I cannot recruit or build anything in his absence, and I will have to reduce the taxes to normal thus losing money...)
- However, a FM alone can embark on a ship anywhere, Only troops must embark in a port.
- If a settlement has no port and in enemy or neutral settlements, this rules does not apply of course as I cannot dock anyway.

Diplomacy is very good and it follows somehow the historical timeline as alliances and wars are scripted to reflect what really happened (of course the player's actions will alter history but he can also choose to follow it to a certain extent and the scripts help him)

I played more than 80 turns and had ZERO CTD.

I have so far only destroyed the Northern African Hafsids and fighting the Ottomans who own 2 settlements in North Africa. I already own Sardinia and Sicily at the start of the game (as well as Malta) and only captured two other islands.
I decided to alter history and not get involved in Italy to focus on North Africa.

But now Naples attacked Messina and this is my first war (apart from the Berbers in North Africa). I got an offer from a Condottieri for his services which I accepted eventhough I am 20 000 in debt, so I got a general and 5 units of strong troops for 6 000 Denarii, added to my debt.

After the war is over he will ask for a final pay, if I refuse he might turn rebel.
If I keep him, he and his men will cost me a lot in upkeep and loot share.

I did so because I need troops and have no money to recruit. But taking cities from Naples will help my economy later on.
Had I refused his services he could have either:
- Joined Naples
- Spawned as a rebel in my territory

Great features I must say.

So far I am very impressed and I think have found my Holy Trinity.

- Antiquity > EBII
- Medieval era > SS6,4 with BGR V
- Renaissance era > The Italian wars

I will maybe give the "1648" mod a chance but the more gunpowder-heavy warfare doesn't interest me so maybe I'll pass.

[Der Böse Wolf]

Ps: as far as I know, all factions are finished except a couple of small ones who lack their full specific events
- Duchy of Urbino
- Margravate of Montferrat
- Duchy of Savoy
- Signoria Bologna

Howerver I did play a a few turns as the Duchy of Savoy and it's really fun and immersive.

Of course the whole mod is incomparable to EBII when it comes to depth but it really does do a fantastic job.

[Der Böse Wolf]

Oh and one more thing I really enjoyed is the fact that General bodyguards units have less men than usual.
25 for FL and 16 for the others.

I find it a very good feature since it prevents players who abuse these auto-replenishing units and use them extensively, to the point that they don't bring other cavalry to the battlefield and instead stack 3 or more FM in the army.

One of my house rules is to always place the general behind his lines to direct the battle, provide morale and support.
He can spring into action to cover a crumbling line for a few seconds or to defend exposed skirmishers, otherwise I never use him as a cavalry unit.

I also use him to chase down routing troops in the vicinity at the end of a battle.

[sullivanclan1]

So, do we know when it will be released?

[Jurand of Cracow]

Thanks for all the information!

Oh and one more thing I really enjoyed is the fact that General bodyguards units have less men than usual.
25 for FL and 16 for the others.

I find it a very good feature since it prevents players who abuse these auto-replenishing units and use them extensively, to the point that they don't bring other cavalry to the battlefield and instead stack 3 or more FM in the army.

One of my house rules is to always place the general behind his lines to direct the battle, provide morale and support.
He can spring into action to cover a crumbling line for a few seconds or to defend exposed skirmishers, otherwise I never use him as a cavalry unit.

I also use him to chase down routing troops in the vicinity at the end of a battle.

Yeah, the mod where they're most exploitable is the Wrath of the Norsemen, as explained here. This is mainly due to the +HP bonuses - they're immortal.

I actually wonder why not to implement it in the EBII. Or maybe there're drawback? Eg. how does the AI cope with it? If it sends them on the suicidal attacks, this may be a problem for the gameplay... If it's true, then a home-rule would suffice (in the EBII I actually have one among the others)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

To sum up my opinions, in my Pritanoi campaign (vh/vh) I've observed the following rules:

1) armies larger than 2 units must be lead by a general. This includes any transfer of troops from recruiting settlements to the frontline. To initiate any battle a general must be present.
2) no sieging during winter north of the line Mare Internum - Mesopotamia. It means: no new sieges can be started, and all current sieges must be resolved instantly - either through storming the walls or through abandoning the siege. (the case for such a rule is three entries below).
3) recruitment and initiating building only with a general present in the settlement (he can leave the settlement during building though) (I wish such a rule would be implemented in the mod by the EBII team (so that I don' need to make it a home rule...), this is rather easy to do).
4) no retraining of units in less-than-half-strength: the heavily depleted units are always merged (this is a good compromise between no-retraining rule and no rule at all: 1) units over 50% of men should be IMO realistically considered to have retained cohesion so they can be replenished; 2) this rule enables the melee units to get higher chevrons (silver, perhaps even gold), 3) it also keeps buildings giving retraining costs bonus useful, WHILE it removes the glaring retraining exploit (when the player merges units, keeps the last few guys with golden chevrons and then retrains them to get a full-golden-unit).
5) no suicidal actions by generals: any bad one must live to the end of his day (such actions are unrealistic as nobody would die voluntarily, and it also makes player's life much easier: bad general - kill him at no cost as the game engine gives another one).
6) balanced army composition: always with a few light units, use of the tribal / lower tier factional units, if possible. Never more than 3 bodyguards in an army (at least one must be a young, learning general).
7) any battle fought personally should be a challenge: this means leaving some units deliberately behind while initiating a battle (this rule doesn't impact on the cleaning exercises - like getting rid of two-unit rebellion - as it's done by autocalc).
8) sieges are resolved either personally or by starving the enemy out (autocalc is usually the best way for resolving the sieges so it can be exploited by the player).
9) trading settlements is not allowed with the AI, unless it is included as a part of a peace treaty.
10) trading maps is not allowed at all (it is both very un-historical (nothing like this existed in the ancient times, the knowledge of geography spread with the movement of the people) and bad for the gameplay (AI pays too much for them).

(I've hesitated with another one: any settlement must build a temple asap. This is because I've found that building temples for a few British settlements (Alauna, Dunopalator, Isamnion) unnecessary: they've got good public order and there's no point to pay upkeep for these buildings)

So, do we know when it will be released?

It's already been. There'll be no other version, unless somebody else would work on it.

[Der Böse Wolf]

Hey Jurand,

This could be a problem indeed and I did not test in my gameplay as I was facing mostly brigands in Sicily and Sardinia. And the war against the Hafsids was me sieging their cities and didn't have a pitch battle against a general of theirs.

There was one BIG battle with an enemy general, but it was a spawned full Berber stack which appeared after I took Tunis. It was a scripted event to reflect the revolt of the Berbers against the occupier of Tunis.

The enemy general died fighting in the middle of the battle and I don't remember him doing suicide attacks.

In a few days I will play again and defend Messina against a full Naples stack with two FM. It will be an open battle as my Viceroy is going to relief te siege.

I'll pay attention to the enemy generals behaviour and report back here.

By the way I play on Large unit size

[Der Böse Wolf]

Hey Sullivanclan,

The mod is fully released. It is supposed to be finished except for some events for 4 smaller factions.

[Jurand of Cracow]

I had to research Pike and shot formations so I can use the beautifully skinned troops effectively.

.. I send 3 separate captain-lead units, which will triple my field army costs.

Can you elaborate on battle tactics? I haven't fought with the cannons and handguns in the M2TW engine and I'm curious what's different. Eg. should I mix pikemen and handgunners in one place, or place them one-behind-the-other?

Is it really that the field army costs are related to the units (ie captains) and not only to the generals? From what I see here, it shouldn't be the case.

BTW - I've added your rule about embarking on the navies to my home rules. In the R2TW it's actually modable, I recall such a submod.

So far I am very impressed and I think have found my Holy Trinity.

- Antiquity > EBII
- Medieval era > SS6,4 with BGR V
- Renaissance era > The Italian wars

I will maybe give the "1648" mod a chance but the more gunpowder-heavy warfare doesn't interest me so maybe I'll pass.

Well, my opinion is:
- EBII still needs an improvement to the gameplay (but of course it's the best mod for the Antiquity, one may also play R2TW-DEI)
- BGR-V: it disables the vanilla traits which are dear to me, I prefer SSHIP with my submods
- TIW, 1648 - I need to play them to get the opinion ;-)
- BC-B&S is a great mod that gives me opportunity to learn other territories and cultures, so I play it occassionaly. It's worth it.


Another question: I wanted to play it in German but I don't know how to switch it as it instals in English. Do you know what to do?

[Elendil 03]

The Ultimate version is only available in English.

[Der Böse Wolf]

Hey Jurand,

for the formations, look up Tercio formations online and you will find wealth of information.
Basically I put my skirmishers (Handgunners, crossbowmen, arequebusiers) in front, and on the flanks of a pike unit and have them shoot at the advancing enemy.

When the enemy troops are closing in, I retreat them behind my pikes. It requires some micromanagement unless you enable skirmish mode.

I then use the cav or heavy infantry to attack the enemy pinned down by the pikes.

The gunners protect and other infantry protect the flanks of the pikes. Usually guns shoot down advancing enemy and then the infantry closes in in hand to hand combat.
Normally the pike units will be mixed with heavy infantry or halberds who attack the enemy frontally as they are struggling to get past the pikes.

I still have to test how I can advance and attack with the pikes, as, unlike Macedonian phalanxes, they are quick and are used as attacking units as well.

Here is a short clip form a great movie (in Spanish) which perfectly illustrates the Tercio (Pike and shot) formation in action. You see how infantry armed with sword and buckler are standing within the pikes formations and when enemy pikemen lock horns with their own pikes, the infantry goes under the pikes with, lift the pikes with their buckler ans stab the pikemen with their swords.



Regarding field army costs, I just did a quick test and I confirm that even captains have field costs when outside a settlement. This is great as it avoids players exploiting this mechanism and using captain-led armies to save money.
Moreover, troops on a ship are considered in ENEMY territory and cost 800 per turn, whereas troops on homeland cost 300.
A besieging army costs 1000.

So naval invasions are very costly as each turn you spend on a ship costs 800, then when you siege it costs 1000.
So if it takes 1 turn to get the army on a ship (300) then you sail for 3 turns (3x800=2400) then you besiege for two turns (2x1000), the whole,operation would cost 4700 gold in this example.

I also think this is great as many players complain about having treasuries full of money. Well in this mod, you struggle to even stay in the green.

Right now, as Spain I control all of Sardinia, Sicily, Malta, two other islands and 5 settlements in North Africa including Tunis and I am -25 000 in debt.
The King of Spain also already sent me 3 navies with troops. These crippled me as each navy costs, besides upkeep, the field costs associated with it. And since the map is huge, it takes a while to reach land and in the end it costs me thousands until I garisson the troops and save money.

So it is really hard and very strategic. No swimming in cash, no infinite full stacks, lots of mercenaries, lots of calculations. And with my house rules, I make it even harder for myself. PERFECT!

As for my Holy Trinity of mod, well I don't own Rome 2 so I only play Med2 mods and EBII reigns supreme. It's not even finished yet and it already breathtaking. Of course it can be improved but the work done with the Med2 engine is just immense, as well as the historical accuracy and infinite information that one can enjoy while playing.

Regarding BGR V and the traits, I think the 12-turn per year, supply system, War council and other features are incomparable.
I tried SSHIP and It was very good so I am still waiting for it to be finished to give it another shot.

I would like to try Broken Crescent as I read good things about it and I a starting to have an appreciation for geographically defined campaign with big maps (Like the Italian Wars) as you can give the region more justice and go more in-depth than with a general map of Europe, North Africa, the Middle East and Arabia all in one.