Build me a challenge worthy of Mordor

[LuckyPistol]

I haven't been able to try a turtle campaign with the newer versions of MOS, but I've played a slow moving Gondor campaign (focused on retaking only Ithilien before moving into Harad and Mordor with professional armies). I do refrain from building taverns in all but one or two of the starting settlements, I tend to specialize at the beginning of the game. One settlement will produce archers first, one will produce infantry first, etc. I'm not trying to be a jackass, but isn't the only thing that you'll be building by that point the "leftovers" (culture buildings, taverns) after you've upgraded all your towns?

[Macilrille]

Not me in current versions no, but I may be a bad player. Especially with the new Mordor's Call script in MOS 1.6+ you will be facing upgraded (weapon and armour) and experienced Rhûn Halberds, etc spamming in quarterstacks, 6+ Haradic ships in turn 10 blocking your harbours and seaborne assaults, etc., etc. It is Blitz or die almost it seems. In Ver 1.6+ AI Gondor and Rohan is usually gone before Turn 100 when I play FPoE.

Go and try. MOS Gondor has become much harder in Version 1.61.

[SirNat]

I'm playing a current campaign as Lorien at it's about turn 110. Rohan is dead (I was preoccupied in bashing the OOMM and Gundabad with Eriador) but Gondor although has lost Minas Tirith and a Pelargir is holding up pretty well (still holds onto Edel and Dol Amroth and all of its western provinces which are under Isengard pressure).
To be fair though Rhun took Minas Tirith which has effectively given Gondor a buffer state from Mordor. Unfortunately for me though this means that Mordor (with Isengard) are pumping all their stacks straight at my home regions and have invested southern mirkwood with around 8 full stacks (some of them stuffed with Rhun and Harad forces also). So it seems that AI Gondor can actually hold up pretty well against even against two foes. It used to get crushed by Harad alone.

Btw quick question- where do that stack spam armies pop up for the AI? Does the entire army just pop up next to their capital?

[Macilrille]

Dunno.

For mine and others' experiences, check out the MOS and the "Gondor getting raped" threads in the Submod Forum.

[LuckyPistol]

Spawn stacks in my experience have appeared around main settlements such as Dol Guldur and in the same territory as capitals, not necessarily close by though

[Macilrille]

There are several sort of spawned stacks in the latest version.

Bah this is going to ruin my Who Am I pic I was planning... I guess I will have to start another campaign for that then.

-Dreadstacks, fullstacks with Mûmaks and Ologs (and possibly Troll Cata, at least it is now Turn 35 and the first of these has appeared). These now has a capable general so you cannot just rout them with a good charge from behind.
-Mordor's Call stacks, 5- 8 (as I have seen) upgraded top-tier units from any evil faction spawning for Mordor, I do not know where, but it would seem around Barad Dûr as well.

[muller227]

There are several sort of spawned stacks in the latest version.

Bah this is going to ruin my Who Am I pic I was planning... I guess I will have to start another campaign for that then.

-Dreadstacks, fullstacks with Mûmaks and Ologs (and possibly Troll Cata, at least it is now Turn 35 and the first of these has appeared). These now has a capable general so you cannot just rout them with a good charge from behind.
-Mordor's Call stacks, 5- 8 (as I have seen) upgraded top-tier units from any evil faction spawning for Mordor, I do not know where, but it would seem around Barad Dûr as well.

I think the first is Eastern Shadow I have not played Gondor yet in 1.61, but that early when your basic troops are still levies ouch. I noticed in both my Silvan and FPoE campaigns though that Mordor starts to explode after the 2nd Barracks event. I think this is a function of having prebuilt Citadels and fortresses and a fairly high rate of regeneration. By turn 70 they are pumping out Third tier troops from at least 7 locations Gondor basically has Minas Tirith (Dol Amroth and Pelargir are both still Minor cities) doing this and their slower regeneration cannot keep up.

The Silvan campaign was interesting, recruiting ents I stomped likely 25 stacks between turn 60 and 120 maybe more and plenty of trolls and and a growing number of Uruks and Moronnan's in each stack, However Gondor is holding much better, than in My Eriador campaign. Where at turn 70 I am still about 20 turns from Arnor. And can help them only a little, Gondor is still almost completely levy troops. I think they hold out by over recruiting and developing relatively little, Everything is still a town or large town for the most part. At the Barracks event both Harad and Mordor have several locations that are ready to produce third tier. A couple of places in Harad have very high starting populations. Arough estimate for Mordor is that they produce almost 2 stacks a a turn, Gondor Swordsmen cost 800,300. Uruks which win in AR cost 360, 180 respectively. Uruks also regenerate faster than any other third tier orc soldiery .2 compare to .15 I think making Pelargir and Dol Amroth Large cities, and Linhir a minor city at the start of the campaign will help quite a bit. They don't need large populations, they just need a jump start to third tier and recruitment slots. At about turn 30 Gondor has stacks of levies by turn 70 these troops were annihilated

[Bladvak]

I have the best challenge ever: win the game with just the siege engines (no troll catapults, though). disband all the rest of the units, leave the generals in the capital.

[Macilrille]

I think the first is Eastern Shadow I have not played Gondor yet in 1.61, but that early when your basic troops are still levies ouch. I noticed in both my Silvan and FPoE campaigns though that Mordor starts to explode after the 2nd Barracks event. I think this is a function of having prebuilt Citadels and fortresses and a fairly high rate of regeneration. By turn 70 they are pumping out Third tier troops from at least 7 locations Gondor basically has Minas Tirith (Dol Amroth and Pelargir are both still Minor cities) doing this and their slower regeneration cannot keep up.

The Silvan campaign was interesting, recruiting ents I stomped likely 25 stacks between turn 60 and 120 maybe more and plenty of trolls and and a growing number of Uruks and Moronnan's in each stack, However Gondor is holding much better, than in My Eriador campaign. Where at turn 70 I am still about 20 turns from Arnor. And can help them only a little, Gondor is still almost completely levy troops. I think they hold out by over recruiting and developing relatively little, Everything is still a town or large town for the most part. At the Barracks event both Harad and Mordor have several locations that are ready to produce third tier. A couple of places in Harad have very high starting populations. Arough estimate for Mordor is that they produce almost 2 stacks a a turn, Gondor Swordsmen cost 800,300. Uruks which win in AR cost 360, 180 respectively. Uruks also regenerate faster than any other third tier orc soldiery .2 compare to .15 I think making Pelargir and Dol Amroth Large cities, and Linhir a minor city at the start of the campaign will help quite a bit. They don't need large populations, they just need a jump start to third tier and recruitment slots. At about turn 30 Gondor has stacks of levies by turn 70 these troops were annihilated

Muller, check the MOS Threads last couple of pages and my poll "How often does Gondor get raped" threads in the submod forum.

And Bladvak, not to demean you, but that is not a challenge; that is just plain silly. I believe TWLegend (who is probably no longer here and has not been since day2) want a real and realistic challenge.

[Bladvak]

I consider it a challenge and I really consider it a worthy one. Saying that it's silly without arguments will not make me think it's silly.

On another note, I have noticed that the OP is not around anymore; also, no offense taken.

[Macilrille]

Good.

My arguments are;
-You cannot build Siege Engines from the start.
-They cannot melee, so when you run out of ammo or if you are charged by cavalry; they are useless.
-It is not realistic.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Flinn]

the title of this tread should be changed to "What is the most difficult set for a campaign?" or be closed at all

be good guys, don't argue over this point that is almost useless

[Bladvak]

Good.

My arguments are;
-You cannot build Siege Engines from the start.

I think that there are a few cities on the map with workshops already existent at the beginning. Pelargir comes to mind as one of them.

-They cannot melee, so when you run out of ammo or if you are charged by cavalry; they are useless.

The guards for some of the engines are quite good : Gondor siege engines are manned by gondor infantry and Isengard's by Uruks. Of course, you do get the Haradrim that have spearmen, but it's the way it goes. Also, ballistas are quite good against charging cavalry.

-It is not realistic.

It's not in the requirements :
I'm looking for a challenge so daring that few have tried and none have triumphed. (afaik, noone has dared try yet)
Something that expresses true skill, not just random or extreme restrictions (win using only diplomats and no armies - boring e.g.). (arguably, it can be considered a bit of an extreme restriction)

What expresses more true skill than conquering ME with siege engines? It takes a lot of skill and thinking to manage and fight a battle with 20 siege engines.

ps: video isn't working for me.

[SirNat]

You have to disband all non-siege equipment troops at the start?
If so surviving the first 40/50 turns will be nigh on impossible.
How about going as FPoE and running with just Hobbits. In effect you are forcing yourself to become OOoM except that the crappy units you have to recruit are only available in 3 regions.

[Macilrille]

there is a quirk with Youtiube and TWC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DopGxUAoAY

Edit, Pelargir cannot build them from the start no.

[magicgunnar]

Well, you want to add MOS whatevet you play. Makes TATW much harder, about as much as TATW is harder than the Vanilla game.

The most difficult factions to play are reputedly Dale and Gondor for the good guys, OoTM and OoG for the baddies. Harad and Rhûn, SE and Dorfs the easiest.

But the thing is, TW games are designed for blitzing. If you want a real difficult game; turtle. A turtling Gondor is very hard, whereas the most effective strategy would be one that was right up your alley; send a fleet with a halfstack down and conquer Harad from the south. Personally I have never been able to turtle longer than to turn 137 with Gondor before switching to the offensive. ANd that was touch and go, for at that point you usually use all your resources just to defend.

But each to their own style, I have an acquaintence that blitzes all the map in EB with obscure factions and find that fun, whereas I prefer to restrain myself and let the enmy build up for a challenge that way.

That and Stainless Steel with the Grim Reality mod are others you might want to consider if you want challenges from the game without restricting yourself BTW. I have asked the MOS team to ask to include the Grim reality mod in MOS, if they do it will be a real challenge for all factions.

When we use the term "turtling" in a challenge I think we need to be more specific and define what it means, here are some examples:

1. Do not take any rebel or enemy settlements.
2. You can take settlements if you get a mission to take them.
3. You can take settlements that has the same terrain as settlements you already hold (Gondor can take settlements with terrain grassland and wood etc.)
4. You can take settlements that borders originally owned settlements.
5. You can take any rebel settlements as long as they are still rebels.
6. You can take settlements that borders currently held settlements or is an island.
7. You can take a number of settlements up to 50% of your number of starting settlements.
8. You can take 1 settlement every 10 turns. ( Or x every y turns)
9. You can take settlements that have an invasion called upon them.

You can combine some of the definitions by saying (3 AND 4), (3 OR 4), etc. Where (3 and 4) means that both 3 and 4 must apply to a settlement before you can take it. (3 or 4) means that either 3 or 4 must apply to a settlement before you can take it. (2 OR 3) could teoretically let you conquer all of Middle Earth.

What do people think?

[Macilrille]

For me it is Lore guidance, I am a Lore fanatic.

But I must say, with MOS 1.6.1 and all evil faction advantage scripts on (except the very Unlore Secret Documents), it is impossible to play as Lore. At least for me, and I have yet to see anyone who can.

[Ulfgard the Unmaker]

I think if one were to codify restrictions on what does and does not constitute turtling for a challenge, it would probably include a duration. Sort of a final note reading: "You must abide by all the above rules up until [arbitrarily determined turn number in the triple digits]." It would prevent the eventuality of potentially not getting many "capture settlement x" or being restricted from conquering settlements required by victory conditions that may or may not otherwise slip through the cracks. I suppose condition 8 might be viable to circumvent such problems, but once you've gone several hundred turns, I feel like that's more of an arbitrary limit than proper turtling.

[Bladvak]

For me, turtling in TATW can be resumed at 6 and 7, where the 50% is actually a variable depending on the faction.

Also, as Ulfgard so wisely put it, turtling also requires a duration, either through a number or through an event:
50, 100, 150 turns can be considered limits
until Osgiliath is rebuilt
until everything in Minas Tirith (pick city here) is built
until Balrog comes/until Sauron comes
until the House of the Kings in Annuminas is rebuilt
until the first/second invasion/ until the first successful invasion