Requests, Suggestions, Ideas and Feedback

[LinusLinothorax]

Hey Magnar,
Africa was always a neglected area in Total War games. I just would like to know if there are plans to overhaul Meroe roster, because it's not only the oldest kingdom together with Saba at Rome 2 startdate but also rich and powerful enough to withstand ptolemies and the romans. Nubians were famous archers, skilled in using the compound- and longbow and atleast since Christian times they were also respected riders.
Here are some things that might be useful:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

http://www.google.de/imgres?client=f...d=0CNIBEK0DMCc (quit informative i think)


(400 years before rome 2 timeframe)

[Magnar]

We plan to overhaul all factions including them

[LinusLinothorax]

Very nice to hear. This book here might be useful: Derek A. Welsby: The Kingdom of Kush. The Napatan and Meroitic Empires
Also a nice website: http://www.ancientsudan.org/

[Magnar]

cheers mate, ill save the link for when we look at that faction

[Ravos]

Something interesting I saw in the Realistic Roman Army submod for DEI was changing the Roman families into the political factions of Rome: Populares, Optimates, Loyalist (Neutral Republican party), and other houses (but I think these can be changed to Tribunes since they were important to maintain the Roman mobs). I thought this was a brilliant idea and I think something like this would be great for this mod. I know it's not a game changer but a nice little aspect. I hate the family system they implemented in this game and I don't think the old RTW family system is needed either. I wish CA would have taken the Senate element and ran with it.

[Magnar]

Cheers for the info ravos, that is a very interesting idea

[Ravos]

No worries, all credit goes to RRA which is actually a really good submod. I actually made my own submod that includes this small part that I use for your mod. Something else from his mod that I liked that could work well in this is how he combined the auxiliary barracks and the normal barracks into one building with each level going from basic auxiliary units to advanced auxiliary to roman legionnaires (each level going from giving a positive public order bonus to causing negative public order). It reminded me of Rome Total Realism for RTW.
I didn't know if you had planned on changing that aspect of the buildings at all (which I'm sure would be far down the line).
I also just want to say I love this mod, thank you guys for all the hard work.

[MrCrapsley]

Hey Magnar. To begin with, I'm very impressed with the vision of your mod, if I were to create a mod, many of the changes you have made would be in it. I've been playing DeI and very much enjoying it but I get the feel from both these overhauls that it will be a while before their final vision is achieved. However, DeI is huge, with a huge community and a large team so it's very difficult to get your voice heard.

I've had a snoop around the forums, got a feel for the mod and would like to make a few points.

I've been doing some reading on the Celts and it's made me realise a few things. Total War is Total War so it's fair enough for modders to focus on unit rosters as these are the most exciting things but the faction-specific campaign overhauls can feel neglected. My big point is in relation to the Celts. CA, for all their sins, have given us a couple of tools which really improve the way we represent barbarian cultures, namely Stances and Confederations.

I was really pleased to see that you had made changes to emphasise the importance of raiding to the barbarians but I think this needs to really be drilled home. In the La Tene culture, raiding was not just a bit of fun or a consequence of big wars it was a fundamental part of the culture. Raiding was how the nobility maintained their prestige and how the men were sorted from the boys.

In contrast, it is clear that these societies had no interest in ruling over others. Case in point: the Senones. As I'm sure you're aware, the Senones decided to attack Rome to avenge their honour and, after defeating the Roman troops, sacked Rome and then returned home.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Realistically, a Celtic campaign should consist of skirmishes and raids with no real prospect of territorial expansion. This could be implemented through (these are just ideas, the points about La Tene culture is what's more important):
- army-based unit caps to encourage small forces;
- buffs to raiding: raiding would increase the prestige of the leader and create an influx of goods, both of which would improve public order, in fact these buffs should be a necessity for a Celtic player, if a leader does not raid then he will lose his grip on those beneath him;
- reasons not to capture territory: high resistance to occupation (civilised peoples would have hated having barbarian overlords and it was in the nature of barbarian peoples to resist conquest) and large public order penalties due to foreign cultures. Barbarian settlements could also have disproportionately large garrisons to reflect the entire community taking up arms to defend their homes, these people were not protected by any army.
- what would also be really really awesome would be if raiding a settlement gave you a share of its prosperity in cash and granted you access to its resources while the raid was ongoing. In this way, Celtic tribes could, for example, "steal" sufficient warhorses for the construction or scaling up of a breeder.

When will your chance to gain territory or become more powerful come? Principally, when you form a Confederation. From the Scordisci to the Galatians to Vercingetorix to the Cisalpine confederations, it is when the numerous warring tribes united for a common goal that Celts were able to field real numbers and make real achievements. The importance of confederations should be emphasised, especially the invasion of a foreign culture as a trigger. However, confederations should be fragile, especially at peace as these confederations were not empires of peace-time rule but a banding together of tribes to combat a common enemy. For this reason, there should be a small public order buff in all but the capital which slowly declines and becomes a debuff, meaning that it will be very difficult to hold together a confederation for long.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I realise it may not be realistic to hope for the above point unless it is possible to make it so that a rebellion ends your 'confederation' status, perhaps it could be scripted that when you are no longer at war the confederation breaks up, returning all settlements to their previous owners?

The Celts (and Germans for that matter, in fact many of the points I have made may well apply to other barbarian cultures, I only say Celts because they are the ones I currently have knowledge of) were also prone to great folk migrations.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This could be represented by having a barbarian building "Migration Preparations" which would almost halt your income/growth (as well as some other nerfs to de-incentivise it as a tool for recruitment, a good one would be to almost completely remove the garrison, there is no garrison when everyone has left after all) but make troops very cheap and increase recruitment slots.

More importantly, Celtic armies should be able to travel after all settlements are lost, with realistic prospects of capturing a new home.

Your work on changing the Celtic building system is very impressive and entails many of the changes I myself would make. I'm going to give the mod some play over the next week to see to what extent I would be suggesting things which are already implemented if I were to continue

As this is a long rambling post I'm sure I will have missed some things and there will be plenty of editing to so forgive me if I'm initially unclear. Great looking project though on the whole.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that it would be great to individualise the traits for different cultures a bit more and that raiding should give XP to barbarian generals. Having a charismatic leader would be really decisive in actually mustering troops for the barbarians.

[Magnar]

@MrCrapsley, We aren't such a small mod . Feature wise, we are as large or even larger than other mods. However, we fly under the radar and dont really do much PR to generate further interest. Perhaps in time that will change. But for now, that our small following enjoy the mod is enough... and of course that we continue to strive to be the most historically accurate mod for Rome 2 .

You make some good suggestions and we will look at what is realistically possible to implement in future updates, especially the xp for raiding.

The current barbarian stances are very much generalised and we plan to expand them in future updates, to make them more specific to sub cultures/ factions where it makes sense to, among many other changes.

Further on Celts, we are currently conducting an internal review of what we have already released, so expect changes especially new equipment and patterns, but also builds and the like.

[MrCrapsley]

@MrCrapsley, We aren't such a small mod . Feature wise, we are as large or even larger than other mods.

Yeah, I meant in terms of the size of the community and the team, it seems more realistic to get across ideas to you guys

Further on Celts, we are currently conducting an internal review of what we have already released, so expect changes especially new equipment and patterns, but also builds and the like.

That's great to hear. It'd be great to see the culture get some love, as soon as I get to my PC this week I'm really looking forward to checking out your changes.

Oh yeah, small question: will those changes include adding a temple to Lugus? As (probably) the chief Celtic god and patron of the arts it seems a bit off that there is no in-game worship.

Ok so I've had a brief play around with the Celts and whilst I understand that they are still a WIP as such, in a way that makes it the best time to make suggestions.

Artisans:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

So I understand that you intend to merge the bronze and iron smith chains and I definitely think this is a good idea. I would restructure the smithing chains into "practical smiths", as such, and artisan smiths. While iron is definitely the key functional metal for the Continental Celts at this point, bronze was still substantially used for art and bronze helmets were not uncommon. For this reason your two branches could consist of:
- Blacksmith (minor weapons buff, agriculture & industry buff due to tools manufacture)-> Ironsmith (better weapons buff, minor armour buff for medium/heavies due to ringmail, less of an ag & ind buff as more time is spent on weapons & armour)->Swordsmith/Armourer (great weapons buff and a decent armour buff for heavies due to chainmail but no ag & ind. buff, a master swordsmith does not make tools!)
vs.
- Bronzeworker (minor armour buff, small culture buff, small happiness boost: the Celts loved their art, crafts)-> Goldsmith (culture buff, happiness boost, more crafts, morale boost due to the manufacture of torcs, which Celtic warriors believed granted divine protection)-> Artisan Smiths (basically more of the previous)

NOTE: I mentioned ring mail and crafts. Ring mail is admittedly purely speculative, it seems like a likely step towards chainmail. When referring to crafts, I would love to see a 'crafts' trade resource added to reflect the export of artwork from many cultures, such as from the Etruscans to the early La Tene (although of course Etruscans are gone by our period, I assume they will be removed?). Obviously some cultures were bigger exporteers than others and this would need to be reflected in the amount of goods generated by the buildings. Amphorae, for example, were widely exported and so a Roman craft chain should produce a great deal more 'crafts' than the Celtic equvilent, who largely just traded these goods with eachother, but did so greatly.
Other Artisans branches could include:
-Craftsmen: reflecting the wonderful panoply of woodworkers, bone-sculptors, masons and other assorted craftsmen who enriched Celtic culture, in game they could replace the 'carpenters' and provide a mix of small buffs to construction, happiness, health(?), culture and craft exports.

Agriculture:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Overall your agricultural changes are very nice and I would only make a couple of changes:
- the 'bardic circle' should be removed. What design decision led to bards producing food and reducing happiness? I will address where bards could be represented a little further down but for the agricultural buildings it could be replaced by:
- hunting lands: while providing less food than farms, this branch could provide XP to spearmen, missile troops, dogs(?) and possibly cavalry due to the experience gained by hunting. It would also be reasonable to reflect the benefit of hides by adding a buff to the armour of light troops, an effect I would also add to the 'livestock' branch to reflect leather manufacturing. While the Celts never fielded archers (or slingers, except in sieges), if a Celtic archer unit were to be included, the higher tiers of this chain would be the building to do it in.
- A small culture buff could also be added to the livestock branch to reflect the importance of animal sacrifice to Celtic religion.

Civil:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

- First of all I would merge the 'drinking hall' branch with the 'warlord's hold' branch. Historically, the chieftain would host great feasts to celebrate his achievements in raids. This would be the place where he reinforced his position at the top of the social order and the place where young men would get fired up on mead and wine and pledge themselves to new raids to try to improve their position. It is therefore suitable for the Cheiftain's Hall etc. to improve public order, troop morale and recruitment slots too, although this might be imbalanced under the current model where how many recruitment slots you get is not even dependant on how many settlements you own in the province, let alone what kind of buildings are in it. Under an ideal model, the prestige of the warlord and his feasting hall would be the defining factor in how many men could be mustered. Men would also fight to the death here for status so XP buffs would be reasonable too. However, lots of food and mead would be consumed in these practices.
- I would then replace the 'drinking hall' with a bardic branch which could buff culture, happiness and research (I suppose, really research should be stimulated by warfare and contact with foreign cultures of course).

Finally, it would be a really nice touch to make some Celtic religious buildings increase slave population decline: slaves made good sacrifices.

[haereticum]

Hey Magnar, have you considered incorporating and tweaking this? http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...airy-Overhaul-

[Roach]

We will of course be working on modifying hoplite and pike formations to go with the release of the Greek faction unit rosters. We have of done our research and have a pretty good idea of what would be most historical, though we are of course somewhat limited in what we can do. Having top-notch animations and formations is definitely something we would love to incorporate if possible. I will let Magnar worry about the technical side of that as always I know we have talked about it internally, but only Magnar knows what talent we have available to make sure that our formations and animations are historical.

In an ideal world what I'd love to see is underhand grip spears at all times except when in phalanx formation and in melee combat, at which point of course the front row would end up using swords (though that obviously can't be shown in game) while the rest of the unit sticks with their spears which are wielded overhand by the 2nd row.

[haereticum]

That's great! I look forward to your work then!

[Magnar]

@haereticum, we will be changing some animations ourselves but not adding that mod. Hoplites will fight with spear and sword as an example. Formations may also be changed slightly but i've not looked into that and is still in early stage planning.

[jupsto]

Rather than having to read all the change logs, I would like a post which has an up to date summary of all the changes to base campaign/combat mechanics. Partically "hidden" stuff like fatigue changes etc.

[Magnar]

Rather than having to read all the change logs, I would like a post which has an up to date summary of all the changes to base campaign/combat mechanics. Partically "hidden" stuff like fatigue changes etc.

Yes there is definitely a need for better documentation. There is a lot in the mod which is not documented or 'hidden'.

Around the release of v2.4 i'll look to creating better documentation so that things are more clear. But for now all efforts are on completing v2.4/

[jupsto]

Yes there is definitely a need for better documentation. There is a lot in the mod which is not documented or 'hidden'.

Around the release of v2.4 i'll look to creating better documentation so that things are more clear. But for now all efforts are on completing v2.4/

I totally understand, I havent updated documentation of my own mod

[whitewolfmxc]

Hey magner can you increase ammo for pretty much all the seige weapons (including on boats) i tried a few , my scorpion killed like 20 men and it ran out of ammo.......... lol increase ammo on archers (and other throwing weapon units) would be nice too lol

[Magnar]

I thought i had already doubled siege ammo. There may be a couple of them i might have overlooked though. Which faction and unit?

missile troops will be made more relative to realistic levels with the next update. We may also look at trying to implement a battlefield ammo refill ability for some units if we can get it to work.

[whitewolfmxc]

I thought i had already doubled siege ammo. There may be a couple of them i might have overlooked though. Which faction and unit?

missile troops will be made more relative to realistic levels with the next update. We may also look at trying to implement a battlefield ammo refill ability for some units if we can get it to work.

i was playing Rome with the catapult and my opponent was using the scorpion with selecid , we both said its way too less ammo for its costs usage

that sounds like a good thing refill ammo , maybe the general can have a ability (with timer of course) to have a radius to refill the ammo of nearby troops ?