Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 43

Thread: Phalanx vs Missle fire+Pilum

  1. #1

    Default Phalanx vs Missle fire+Pilum

    This is a topic regarding the Phalanx vs missle fire...both the Greek and Macedoian systems.

    The Greek system has a massive thick shield, the Aspis and Hoplites covered in armour. It seemed to held out well against Persian archers(from the front in formation.) However that is not to say they needed to rush at the enemy(ie. Marathon getting abliterated by missles. The Athenian javelin thowers annihilated a Spartan Morae before with javelins and arrows.

    The Macedonian phalanx uses a smaller shield but is known to have a mass dense of pikes that could catch and defelect arrows. However this may only apply to indirect fire as the spears were usually held in a 45 degree angle.
    Alexander's used the phalanx in offense rather than defense. A reason for this may be is to close with the enemy so they can't use their missles(like the Persians)

    However the Phalanx did get shaken by missle fire before. At the Battle Granicus, the Longbowmen of Porus along elephants, shook the phalanx and it was the cavalry charge by Alexander that saved them.

    If you look at later Hellenitic battles, skirmishers, archers, and slingers are staple of Hellenistic battles, reminding me of battles of Pike and Shot period.

    Persian horse archers and the Battle of Ipsus flanked the phalanx of the Antigonids and shot arrows at them, causing them to break morale.


    And this is a topic on the Roman Pilum vs the Phalanx:

    siege of Atrax
    "But in the narrow space - for the breach in the wall was by no means a wide one - the kind of weapon he used and his style of fighting gave the enemy an advantage. When the serried Macedonian ranks presented their enormously long spears it was like a shield-wall, and when the Romans after fruitlessly hurling their javelins, drew their swords they could not get to close quarters, nor could they hack off the spear-heads; if they did succeed in cutting or breaking any off, the splintered shafts kept their places amongst the points of the uninjured ones and the palisade remained unbroken. "
    Livy.
    This is to say the Roman Pilum was ineffective in the battle. Maybye due to the fact the Pilum is a rather low velocity could get trapped in the forest.

    However at the Battle of Magnesia the Pilum did some damage causing them to retreat:
    The Phalanx in order to avoid the flanking of Romans, formed square.

    "The Romans did not come to close quarters nor approach them because they feared the discipline, the solidity, and the desperation of this veteran corps; but circled around them and assailed them with javelins and arrows, none of which missed their mark in the dense mass, who could neither turn the missiles aside nor dodge them.
    After suffering severely in this way they yielded to necessity and fell back step by step, but with a bold front, in perfect order and still formidable to the Romans"
    Appian.

    Although the phalanx didn't break to the Roman Pilum and arrow fire at Magnesia(until the were caught between their own elephants) they did retreat due to the effect of it and "suffered severly" and took many causualties.

    So missle fire doesn't destroy the Phalanx, it did distrupt it IMO.(like missle weapons are meant to do to formations)

    It was the phalanx offensive charge supported by cavalry that made it sucesful. If it is defensive it usually gets destroyed
    Last edited by HuangCaesar; November 01, 2013 at 10:59 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Phalanx vs Missle fire+Pilum

    This is very good information perhaps CA should consider this...

  3. #3
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    The Hell called Conscription
    Posts
    35,615

    Default Re: Phalanx vs Missle fire+Pilum

    Javelin and arrow are two different things; the truth is that despite longer range arrow's penetration value is low and hence cannot deal decisive damage to an armored target - that was largely why hand cannon was adopted in Late Middle Age.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

  4. #4
    Manuel I Komnenos's Avatar Rex Regum
    Civitate

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Athenian Empire
    Posts
    11,553

    Default Re: Phalanx vs Missle fire+Pilum

    I've read that the ability of the raised sarissas to block enemy projectiles was a myth. The point of the raised sarissas was to avoid impending the movement of the formation. Perhaps the shields of Alexander's army were bigger as the sarissa was shorter as well but later Hellenistic phalanx formations which were heavier might have utilized heavy armor to make for their longer sarissas which meant smaller shields.
    Under the patronage of Emperor Maximinus Thrax
    "Steps to be taken in case Russia should be forced out of war considered. Various movements [of ] troops to and from different fronts necessary to meeting possible contingencies discussed. Conference also weighed political, economic, and moral effect both upon Central and Allied powers under most unfavorable aspect from Allied point of view. General conclusions reached were necessity for adoption of purely defensive attitude on all secondary fronts and withdrawing surplus troops for duty on western front. By thus strengthening western front [those attending] believed Allies could hold until American forces arrive in numbers sufficient to gain ascendancy."
    ~General Pershing, report to Washington, 26 July 1917

  5. #5

    Default Re: Phalanx vs Missle fire+Pilum

    I was surprised to find that the pila didn't do much against the phalanx, I was expecting it to deal some heavy casualties to the Greek Phalanx.
    I have always been sceptical about a Macedonian Phalanx blocking projectiles, I could see it catching arrows flying overhead to hit something behind the phalanx, but not being effective at blocking missiles aimed at the phalanx itself.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Phalanx vs Missle fire+Pilum

    Quote Originally Posted by Manuel I Komnenos View Post
    I've read that the ability of the raised sarissas to block enemy projectiles was a myth. The point of the raised sarissas was to avoid impending the movement of the formation. Perhaps the shields of Alexander's army were bigger as the sarissa was shorter as well but later Hellenistic phalanx formations which were heavier might have utilized heavy armor to make for their longer sarissas which meant smaller shields.
    That is in and of itself a myth. You can catch arrows with your hand, you can parry them with a large stick. The factors allowing you to do so are training, and luck. Just keeping rows of pikes up means that some arrows are going to be knocked off course enough that they will miss what would otherwise be a vital mark.

    The reason the phalanx was successful in the enclosed space is because that is what a spear is designed to do; keep the enemy far apart from you, while you stab them at a safe distance. A sword usually only works at close range.
    If you have ten or twenty guys lined up in rows, and there is only enough for say three swordsman to get at them at a time, you have at least three (close in four) guys capable of keeping that swordsman back. Even if his armor protects him, and his shield blocks the blows, he is still going to get hit, and hit often enough to be physically kept at range so that he cannot advance. The typical method of advancing, by cutting the spear points off, only works if you can then exploit the gap. In the narrow confines it didn't matter because even the cut spear (assuming fresh were not ever brought up to the front lines) still was long enough to keep the swordsman back, when used along with the uncut spears.

    From the front, with enough training (as the men of the phalanx did have in both cases), it isn't terribly hard to raise your shield and block the missile. In a more spread out formation, it isn't terribly hard to duck behind your shield either (although this is very hard to do in a tightly packed phalanx). Obviously, if you get a javelin embedded in your shield you want to drop it at some point, because the extra weight now on the other side of it makes it all but useless for fighting.

    From the side, you can only be in so many directions at once. You can't, for example, block a missile from the front and the back at the same time. When the Phalanx moved into a square formation, with the Romans around it, the Romans on the sides could simply target a man who wasn't facing them, and nail them with javelin and/ or missile fire. Sure, the bronze and the armor underneath it would keep most of those hits from being fatal, but enough would get through (for example, the back of the legs, the lower arms, etc..) that holes would start to appear as men went down due to their various wounds.
    Even if it is perfectly flat terrain, so that you cannot see the men you are aiming at in the formation, you take a guess and throw your weapon over the guys who are facing you. Throw enough, and they will begin to take their toll on the enemy. The enemy knows that if they stand long enough under this, their numbers will eventually become small enough that they can be wiped out in a charge. This is why even the veterans were forced back, after they had to form a square.

    ~John

  7. #7

    Default Re: Phalanx vs Missle fire+Pilum

    Wouldn't it be amazing to charge car into phalanx and see what happens?

  8. #8
    Magister Militum Flavius Aetius's Avatar δούξ θρᾳκήσιου
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Rock Hill, SC
    Posts
    16,318
    Tournaments Joined
    1
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Phalanx vs Missle fire+Pilum

    Quote Originally Posted by Petrucci View Post
    Wouldn't it be amazing to charge car into phalanx and see what happens?
    Sounds like a Party.

    As for the penetrating power of the arrow - this varies. Most hoplites couldn't afford more than their spear, shield, and tunics. Some wealthier ones could afford things like quilted armor (aka the so called "Linothorax") or better yet the Leather Spola. Of course the wealthiest men used Bronze, Iron, or Hamata/Squamata.

    Most hoplites, therefore, were extremly vulnerable to arrows. Quilted Linen or Leather can't do against a penetrating attack, albeit may have had some value considering Scythian Bows were smaller, symmetrical, and less powerful. Sarmatian bows changed that of course, adding Asymmetry and therefore longer bows for more firepower.

    The primary method of defense, however, was still the shield, which is exactly what the Pilum was designed to do. Contrary to popular belief, Pila weren't just thrown in 2 volleys because a soldier carried 2 pila. First of all, it seems only one Pilum was carried into battle, and second of all Pila were fired by Ranks. There were enough Pila to keep missile exchange going throughout a battle, let alone picking up and re-using Javelins (the Pila did not bend, again contrary to popular belief, and if they did it wasn't intentional for them to).

    The Aspis, which wasn't any thicker than any other shield of the time, was basically useless once you had a 7 foot Iron and Wood rod sticking out of it. Then arrows and light Javelins could pick off the (primarily) unarmored troops beneath.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Phalanx vs Missle fire+Pilum

    It would be great if some random guys or mythbusters try to do it. I wonder what would happen.

  10. #10
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Colfax WA, neat I have a barn and 49 acres - I have 2 horses, 15 chickens - but no more pigs
    Posts
    16,794

    Default Re: Phalanx vs Missle fire+Pilum

    As for the penetrating power of the arrow - this varies. Most hoplites couldn't afford more than their spear, shield, and tunics. Some wealthier ones could afford things like quilted armor (aka the so called "Linothorax") or better yet the Leather Spola. Of course the wealthiest men used Bronze, Iron, or Hamata/Squamata.
    "Most" and you arrive at that conclusion exactly how using what data?

    Most hoplites, therefore, were extremly vulnerable to arrows. Quilted Linen or Leather can't do against a penetrating attack, albeit may have had some value considering Scythian Bows were smaller, symmetrical, and less powerful. Sarmatian bows changed that of course, adding Asymmetry and therefore longer bows for more firepower.

    The primary method of defense, however, was still the shield, which is exactly what the Pilum was designed to do. Contrary to popular belief, Pila weren't just thrown in 2 volleys because a soldier carried 2 pila. First of all, it seems only one Pilum was carried into battle, and second of all Pila were fired by Ranks. There were enough Pila to keep missile exchange going throughout a battle, let alone picking up and re-using Javelins (the Pila did not bend, again contrary to popular belief, and if they did it wasn't intentional for them to).

    The Aspis, which wasn't any thicker than any other shield of the time, was basically useless once you had a 7 foot Iron and Wood rod sticking out of it. Then arrows and light Javelins could pick off the (primarily) unarmored troops beneath.
    Again a great deal of certainty based on a lot not evedence scatered in time and place.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  11. #11
    Magister Militum Flavius Aetius's Avatar δούξ θρᾳκήσιου
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Rock Hill, SC
    Posts
    16,318
    Tournaments Joined
    1
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Phalanx vs Missle fire+Pilum

    Well first of all most of this stuff has been reconstructed and tested (and I'm not talking about the Indian stuff sold to Reenactors here.)

    I recommend reading the Comitatus Website. They have a lot of good articles, pride themselves in Historical Accuracy, and back it up (and provide) a lot of sources.

    http://www.comitatus.net/greek.html

    Frankly, I'll admit that Greek/Roman Republican isn't my forte.

    Oh, and as for Pila not bending, we've thrown quite a few and they just stick straight up out of the ground. They usually break before they'll bend.

    For more on Republican Roman Armies, generally speaking Adrian Goldsworthy is the way to go.

  12. #12
    Praeses
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    8,355

    Default Re: Phalanx vs Missle fire+Pilum

    I thought the linothorax was specifically anti-missile?
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  13. #13
    Magister Militum Flavius Aetius's Avatar δούξ θρᾳκήσιου
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Rock Hill, SC
    Posts
    16,318
    Tournaments Joined
    1
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Phalanx vs Missle fire+Pilum

    The concept that the Linothorax was made of Glued Linen has long been disproven. First of all, sweating alone causes the armor to soften and fall apart, let alone rain.

    Any material can stop arrows or swords if it's thick enough, but linen or leather has to be extremly thick and by that point it's heavier than metal armor.

    Some good discussions on the Linothorax can be found here:

    http://www.romanarmytalk.com/19-gree...-new-book.html
    http://www.romanarmytalk.com/19-gree...art=0&start=15
    http://www.romanarmytalk.com/19-gree...art=0&start=60
    Last edited by Magister Militum Flavius Aetius; March 24, 2014 at 07:21 AM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Phalanx vs Missle fire+Pilum

    I summon old thread to discus about awesomeness of charging the car into phalanx and you guys continue talking about darts pointed sticks...

  15. #15
    Magister Militum Flavius Aetius's Avatar δούξ θρᾳκήσιου
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Rock Hill, SC
    Posts
    16,318
    Tournaments Joined
    1
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Phalanx vs Missle fire+Pilum

    I don't read timestamps on posts.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Phalanx vs Missle fire+Pilum

    On the topic, do you think it's possible for phalanx 6 men deep and 4 men wide to stop the car moving 40 kmph?

  17. #17
    Magister Militum Flavius Aetius's Avatar δούξ θρᾳκήσιου
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Rock Hill, SC
    Posts
    16,318
    Tournaments Joined
    1
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Phalanx vs Missle fire+Pilum

    Yes but it would hurt like hell.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Phalanx vs Missle fire+Pilum

    Quote Originally Posted by Petrucci View Post
    On the topic, do you think it's possible for phalanx 6 men deep and 4 men wide to stop the car moving 40 kmph?
    No, at 40 mph, it requires 130 feet to stop the forward motion with the MTV brakes applied, the kenetic energy produced by a typical car would kill/maim (90% mortality pert person* )all those in its path if the brakes were not applied.

    * http://www.safespeed.org.uk/killspeed.html


    • f someone is hit by a car at 40 mph they are 90% likely to be killed.
    • If someone is hit by a car at 30 mph they are 50% likely to be killed.
    • If someone is hit by a car at 20 mph they are 10% likely to be killed.
    Last edited by Hanny; March 25, 2014 at 06:16 PM.
    “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.” Benjamin Franklin

  19. #19

    Default Re: Phalanx vs Missle fire+Pilum

    The car would go through, but the driver would get a face full of pike shafts for his trouble.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Phalanx vs Missle fire+Pilum

    Well assuming car is not driven but controlled ,car weight is 1,5 t and it's 4 phalangists wide and its moving 40 kmph in the straight line coming right on the pikes . And we have phalanx like this, where only first five rows will count.

    That's 20 men with pikes. I think it's enough to stop car. Your thoughts?
    Last edited by Petrucci; March 25, 2014 at 07:34 PM.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •