Carthage Campaign Guides

[Omnipotent-Q]

Carthage Campaign Guides

Posts yours here

At the top of your post (preferably in bold print) please put the name of the Carthaginian Dynasty you're playing as. Hannonid, Magonid, Barcid.

[Ichon]

Barcids


General strategy and advice

Focus ONLY on 1 front if playing higher than Normal for at least a few turns. Majority of factions will declare war within a few turns of contact due to the diplomatic penalty so it doesn't pay to explore much. I find conquering Turdetani relatively easy early but if you let them sit more than 10 turns they can be a big problem as Iberian swordsmen carve up the basic hoplites Carthage starts with. Getting Libyan swordsmen, better hoplites, mercenaries, or cavalry will help conquer Iberia later but conquering Iberia first is something I haven't tried but seems likely a very difficult campaign as Syracuse and Rome along with African factions will be laying siege to Carthage before turn 10 if there are no armies to oppose them on higher difficulty levels.

From my experience due to Lilybaeum Syracuse will declare war sooner rather than later and Rome almost always joins in shortly. Since Barcids are unlikely to have many friends and the Etruscan league is likely to be so busy with Rome they will not drag you into other wars for quite awhile so if they survive Etruscans make an ideal trade partner short term or possibly ally if you help them take Rome. Whatever other friends you have are likely to result from being enemies of the factions which declare war on you so Arverni, Cyrencia, Egypt, Epirus, and Lusitani are likely trade partners and allies.

Economy

Without any full provinces and the military situation requiring teching up to get the next tier of barracks Carthage is best served by building solid economic foundation at the center of strength. Depending on campaign strategy this will mean 1 of 4 possible provinces, Africa, Magna Grecia, Corsica and Sardinia, Iberia. Both Africa and Magna Grecia have the most potential in the long run but require the most amount of conquests to create a full province so I find spending money on only 2 defensible regions initially the best strategy. All other money should go into building up the military. Carthage is the key to holding Africa and the easiest walled province to defend so spending money there is probably the best choice for at least 1 region. The next is region chosen for investment depends on which front is the initial focus. I prefer investing in Syracuse as taking Consentia and Brundisium after Syracuse is the fastest route to a defensible full province but it usually means ending Rome early in a campaign.

If focused on Africa then Carthage and Thapsus are a good investment. If focused in Spain then moving north east up the coast and leaving Turdetani as clients or rebel city is the best economic course.

Carthage should change the docks to either fish or trade port to boost economy initially. After that trade ports are better than fisheries financially but should depend on the food situation or basically how many non coastal regions Carthage controls. Increasing taxes the first few turns also make sense as Lilybaeum is probably going to experience a revolt anyway and getting an early economic boost to fund expansion is a good advantage. Reducing taxes once a few regions are conquered will be necessary so use the higher taxes while you can.

Diplomacy

The most important diplomatic choice is going to be how to treat the starting client states of Carthago Nova and Libya. It is a valid option to turn against one or both clients but as Barcids doing so while still having other enemies is foolish so the more effective policy is to trade the client states for time.

Most of the enemy factions will declare war on Carthage NOT the client states directly and it is your choice which client states to bring into each war. Choose carefully and you can manage the results fairly well. Keep each client state focused on only a single enemy faction at a time and they can often win. Get a client involved in more than 1 war and the balance turns against them but often it is a slow process and often Carthage can benefit by gaining Punic culture regions from recent barbarian attacks without angering clients or building a poor diplomatic reputation. Eventually War goals can also be used to assist this process as AI often accedes to request for attack on a distant war goal and moves its military accordingly which leaves its nearer regions open to enemy attack... so that Carthaginian armies can recover the lands and complete full provinces while maintaining useful client states.

As Barcids I have attempted to get Rome as a friend by declaring war on Etruscan League but never been successful mostly because Syracuse attacks and Rome always sides with them. It might be possible with concentrated diplomacy and spending early income on bribes but most likely such an attempt will make defending Qart Hadasht impossible unless the Turdetani are first bribed into friendship (possible and sometimes with good results when Iberians start fighting each other but a bit random). I've found Arverni and Egypt to be the best allies for Carthage as both are far enough away and likely to share common enemies that alliances or at least partnerships can last awhile.

Research

Getting to the tier 2 barracks will make your game as Carthage much easier and frankly there isn't much else worth going towards directly in the research tree at this point. Once researched the tier 2 barracks the next best option is unlocking dignitary which should take another 4 turns. After that it is up to individual preference but in my opinion going towards boiling oil for sieges(3 turns)and then +4 conversion in philosophy by taking the bottom path (temple tax, legal institutions 21 turns) not a bad way either as Libyan swordsmen unlocked in barracks 2 is really all that Carthage needs for a long time supplemented with mercenaries and then construction techs or going towards tier 3 barracks (20 turns from tier 2) makes the most sense.

Turn guide by expansion direction

Magna Grecia
1. recruit new general and maximum amount of units in Lilybaeum
2. move fleet toward Syracuse and recruit 3 units at movement end
3. move spy toward Syracuse
4. recruit maximum units in Carthage
5. research military

END TURN 1

1. move armies toward Syracuse, recruit mercenaries
2. move navy toward Syracuse
3. move spy toward Syracuse

END TURN 2

1. Use spy poison on Syracuse army with best odds of success
2. Join 2 armies in Sicily together and lay siege to Syracuse
3. Move fleet and blockade Syracuse
4. Move spare general with 0 units in Sicily toward Lilybaeum to recruit more units if Syracuse has too many units but does not sally
5. With taxes turned up there should be funds to recruit army in Qart Hadasht (if you are a strong commander moving directly to attack Turdetani is possible but this is quite a difficult battle with 1 vs 4 odds and can only be won with very good management of elephants and mercenary Iberian cavalry)

END TURN 3

1. Poison with spy again
2. Attack Syracuse which should be weakened from attrition and poison
3. recruit max armies in Qart Hadasht (or recruit mercenaries if opting to be aggressive vs Turdetani as if you wait past 5 turns they will have nearly full stack on VH and Legendary)
4. dismiss mercenaries in Sicily from service to save income
5. building temples that convert Sicily to Punic culture
6. research military settlement

END TURN 4

1. build tier 2 barracks in Qart Hadast or Karalis (I prefer Karalis as can support all directions in 2 turns movement)
2. move fleet north to interecept Romans if relatively undamaged otherwise let replenish in port- adding a few javelinmen from land army is also the most economical and cheapest way to expand fleet initially, only 10 upkeep cost difference but 120 men vs 80
3. move spy north into Italy to see what Romans are up to
4. replenish 1 army in Syracuse and recruit more units
5. 2nd general in Syracuse move back to Carthage as African tribes likely to lay siege

END TURN 5

I've had Turdetani lay siege to Qart Hadasht around this time but the walls with a small garrison can repel any attack, however in recent patches the AI is slightly more willing to settle into a long siege so... on legendary I usually scout a bit with my army if not outright move to attack Turdetani by this point (elephant general and Iberian cavalry can crush swordsmen and skirmishers each with infantry focus on mopping up and the Turdetani cavalry)- move it toward the border to see if a Turdetani army is close this turn- often the Turdetani will attack army if they see it and most players should be able to win this first battle but depending on losses and confidence level retreat away from Qart Hadasht or recruit more mercenaries and lay siege to Turdetani capitol. If moving away from Qart Hadasht the AI settles into a long siege if it lost the first battle due to its losses and not having army stuck inside and can move to attack Turdetani from the south after adding more mercenaries or can move to Carthago Nova's aid/pick up pieces. In my playthru I designate Turdetani as war target which Carthago Nova responded and sent armies that left its Africa regions undefended... with help of Carthago Nova the Turdetani were conquered without loss of Qart Hadasht and then picked up African regions formerly belonging to Carthago Nova easily with 4th army as soon as next Imperium level is reached. Celtici and some other tribes in Iberia always attack next so keeping Turdetani as a client can buy some time to take Africa or proceed directly to conquering Iberia if occupying.

Depending on Roman activity moving into Italy can be possible at this point but I usually settle for raid/sacking of Consentia and Brundisium. Rome usually has 2-3 stacks and risking battle on legendary unless certain of victory at this point is foolish with African tribes gathering strength. In a few more turns can afford 2nd army or upgrade to Libyan swordsmen which make battles against the odds much easier and returning to complete conquest in Italy low risk.

Usually a choice is necessary to focus on Africa or Spain as 2nd front as next level of Imperium will allow more armies and investing in army in accordance with a plan is more efficient than just striking out hapazardly. I prefer to invest in Spain as more can be accomplished there vs enemies which can grow quite strong if left alone. The African factions are much easier to defeat with weak army rosters and Carthage's 2 nearby client states which by this point might be struggling but with a bit of support/time can still prove usefulness. Keeping client states between 3-5 region is best as they are strong enough to support your goals but if decide to take them out can do it in 1 or 2 turns.

Overall as of Patch 5 Carthage is the only faction I have enjoyed playing enough to try more than once. The initial starting position and 3 different families and possible directions to go is interesting. Barcids are the most difficult campaign I've had in Rome 2 (haven't done Parthia or nomads yet) but still much easier than legendary Shogun 2 campaigns I've played. Playing as families other than Barcids is significantly easier as trade agreements and non-aggression pacts can be readily gained which raises income and makes controlled expansion possible.

[Slaists]

Barcids, Legendary

The biggest constraint will be money. Due to the global diplomatic hit, Barcids cannot get trade going with almost anybody for quite a while. This is a major disadvantage since armies will be needed everywhere. Plan on being under-manned, under-paid, under-developed for a long stretch.

Syracuse can be taken on turn 2 with the starting army from Carthage (forced marched towards Syracuse on turn 1) + another general and some militia hoplites from Lyllibaeum. Fleet can move towards Rome on turn 1, declare war on Rome on turn 2 (lose diplomatic reliability with this) and destroy the Roman starting fleet which helps out Etruscans a lot. From Syracuse, I'd follow the path North immediately and try to take over all of Magna Graecia.

In Spain, I would recommend moving towards Turtedani city on turn 1, recruit to the full, lay siege to their capital on turn 2 (and recruit another general in Qart Hadasht on turn 2 to get more troops). I would besiege Turtedani capital until they sally. It is quite possible to keep all territories with this tactic. Done that on Legendary playing with Barcas, which means no trade income to speak of (due to global diplomatic hit). After Turtedani's are dealt with, I'd move to Edetani and Cesetani (make the latter a client state to create some buffer between Spain and Gauls). By this time, Moroccans will probably have taken out Nova Carthago African holdings so you'll have to get busy wrestling Mauretania from them.

Use ambush stance a lot (even when woods are not near). If your army is in ambush stance, the AI cannot see it until it marches close (and either gets ambushed or just marches past you). So, the AI being the AI, it is likely to march in forced march stance (because it cannot see the threat from your hidden army). This gives you an easy way to deal with marauding AI stacks (which will be many given the legendary difficulty).

Beware of Lybians: on legendary, they are able to out-tech Carthage. In my own campaign, Lybians sported a level 4 barracks on turn 25 or so. High tech armies followed.

[kamikoze]

Hannonid
(i dont remember the spelling of all the factions but you should get which one i speak of)
Turn 1
+move your Qart Hadasht genral toward turdetani and recruit
+move your chartage general to lilybeum and recruit
+recruit your statesman general in chartage and recruit
+move your navy towards lilybeum and syracuse
+move spy to syracuse and set her to spy
+build temple in lilybeum
Diplomacy
+get defensive alliance with maesyli followed by millitary access
+get non-aggresion treaty followed by trade agrement from cyrenica, offer to join war against egypt and cyracus, make client state and pay you 1000-1500
+get trade agrement from libya, pay 500-700
+declare war on gaetuli, ask nova cartago to join pay 500
+declare war on garamanta, ask maesyli to join war against

END turn 1

Turn 2
+recruit at least 3 mercenarys units with your Qart Hadasht general and kill turdetani, dispand mercenarys (you can loot this settlement because your general have to stand here for the next 8-9 turns, but i find it annoying to have to kill rebels every turn for 400gold so i usualy dont)
+move your lilybeum general to the border of syracuse and recruit
+navy to the seaborder of syracuse and recruit
+chartage general recruit
+set bread and games edict for turdetani province and bould temple

END turn 2

turn 3
+spy poison well of syracuse
+attack with navy (because he is your faction leader as Hannonid, and should get the glory) move your lilybaeum general toward syracuse, and force march your chartage general the searoute toward syracuse, depending on difficulty you may want to recruit a mercenary unit for one or more of your forces
+secure promotion for your admiral
+put all your armyunits on one general and recruit
+raze food building in turdetani city
Diplomacy
+egypt should have taken 2 citys from cyrenica by now and nasamones is pissed off enough to join war against egypt
+etruscan league might want trade, dont make any deals with epirus until you have the whole of magna graecia

End turn 3

Turn 4
+move your empty general towards the roman city and recruit (you may or may not be at war with rome by now and if they have a general in this city you move the other general)
+build and upgrade temples where they are most needed

by turn 11 you should have defeted rome, have a good time

[Pontic Pontus]

'SImple multiplayer strategy against Rome or any other faction, normal difficulty:'
Turn 1
Diplomacy:
Make peace with Turdetani, start trading with Lybia(offer trade + 500 money.)Armies:
recruit 3 ships to your fleet, three basic hoplites to both your army in Carthage and Qart Hadasht.
Buildings:
build ports and farms with whatever money you have not spent on other things. Set an edict of choice in the province of Africa, it is shared between you and Libya and you can lay edicts on shared provinces.
Turn 2
Diplomacy:
nothing
Armies
Move your fleet north, recruit another 3 ships. Move army in Carthage to Sicily, recruit more units. Recruit more units in Iberian army as well.
Buildings:
same as before
Turn 3
Diplomacy:
Masaesily will declare war on Nova Carthago. Decline to help them, and break the alliance.
Military:
Conquer Balaeric islands, should be easy battle
Attack Syracuses army, win the battle. Then attack the city itself and subjugate it.
Rome should have kicked Etruscan league from Italy, blockade the port of the last Etruscan settlement on Corsica. Maintain siege.
Buildings:
Build a farm on the Balearic islands
Turn 4
Diplomacy:
Improve relations with Masaesily and Gaetuli(African tribe to the west) as you see fit.
Military
Bring the army which vassalized Syracuse back to Lilybaeum, recruit new units.
Leave the army in the Balearic islands as it is.
Continue blockading the port of the Etruscan city.
Buildings
Start building military buildings in Carthage.
Turn 5
Diplomacy:

Try to further relations with Masaesily and Gaetuli.
Military
Bring the army in Sicily(which vassalized Syracuse) up to the fleet blockading Corsica in forced march stance(double time) on transports.
Attack Corsica with the fleet, if the army is withing reinforcing range fight the battle.
If its not wait another turn.
Buildings
nothing

Once you've reached this stage you'll have control over all the islands in the western Mediterranean, your eastern border will be completely guarded by both Syracuse and Libya, and hopefully you'll have good relations in all of western Africa. You'll now be one of the strongest factions in the game, and you can now choose to either invade Spain or Italy and win a multiplayer campaign against anyone.

[Slaists]

The latest patch 11 has brougtht some interesting changes to Carthage. The fixed (faction merc pool is replenishing finally) and expanded faction merc pool is probably the most important change. Now, getting merc armies together in crucial situations is a viable option for Carthage.

[bigdaddy1204]

Does anyone else find the Carthage campaign in Rome II extremely hard? Your provinces don't make enough income. It costs a lot to upgrade your buildings, but they provide minimal benefit. Public order is terrible, and if you raise taxes it gets even worse. This brings your lands to the point of rebellion very quickly.

Every faction on the map seems to want to declare war on you almost immediately, and they can send stack after stack at you. I once counted Syracuse had three stacks consisting of 60 units in total, against me! And I need an army to defend Sicily, yet public order is so bad I can't tax the province, and even if I did the income is insignificant (150 denari per turn). So from a financial point of view, it's not worth defending. But if you withdraw, they just attack you in Carthage and you can quickly end up losing your capital city. Game over.

Attacking the Turdetani in Spain and capturing their city is possible in Spain, but again the public order issues mean it's not going to provide much (or any) economic gain. I've tried attacking Sicily and it is possible to wipe them out early on, but it's hard and basically means you can't develop your economy or upgrade to better troops. And their starting units are better than yours.

In desperation, I've tried attacking the Libyan provinces, but that doesn't really work either as Syracuse will still attack you anyway and even if you beat the Libyans, you'll just be steamrolled by the Garamantes who will attack you with multiple stack armies and you won't be able to stop them. You can only deploy one army in Africa, but they can deploy two or even three. It's impossible. They will attack you at every point, and your towns can't be defended. It's unavoidable to lose territory to them, and then you end up no better off than when you started (and probably worse, because the Syracuse will be invading you as well).

Bloody hard campaign!

[Slaists]

How I did it before EE:

1. Took Syracuse on turn 2 and the Spanish capital that Carthage starts at war with at about the same time. Expansion wise, concentrated on conquering Spain from that point. Instigated revolts in Southern Italy to expand further there.
2. Made sure my vassal states joined at least some of my wars
3. Leveraged elephant generals a lot + cheap levy troops + faction specific mercs
4. Research the appropriate merc cost reduction tech early; Get merc upkeep reduction army tradition; Add a dignitary to the most expensive armies; Merc upkeep cost goes down to almost 0.

This was with Barcids, legendary difficulty. Won the campaign.

[Juba1]

My start with Barcid Carthage on grand campaign EE + DeI mod ; Normal campaign and Normal Battles

Firts I check all my ancillaries general to know the bonus...
In my game, it seems that others factions give you more money in exchange of a Trade Agreement if you have no money ( so do diplomaty after buldings...)
In my game, it seems that if I'm at war with Syracuse and if I attack one Iberic faction in the few first turns, Rome and Ptoleme let y in peace

Diplomaty :
- with Getules get a Trade agreement + Military access in exchange of 3500$
- Garamantes get a Trade agreement + No Agression pact in exchange of 2000$
- Nasamons get a Trade agreement in exchange of 2000$ (dont accept any other agreement with them until you want a war with Ptoleme)
- Turdetans get a Trade agreement + No Agression pact in exchange of 500$
- Celtes sometimes accept a NA pact
- Arvaques get a Trade agreement in exchange of 500$, sometimes they accept a No Agression pact
- Edetans sometimes they accept a Trade agreement in exchange of 1440 $

Build temple in Gadira to increase your culture (later Gadira will be your recruitment city for Iberia invasion) + recruit a ship to explore from Gadira until Baltic sea and make Trade Agreement and NA pact. gather you 2 army and march north to attack Edetans as soon as they are at war with others iberic faction capture Arse...

Build in priority recruitment and trade buildings in Africa, develop trade in Sardaina + 2 Edits that boost your economy
In Carthage buy 1 ship and improve Hannibal in Senat and recruit 2 hoplits + 4 javelines and send them to defend Lilybaeum next turn, the ship will continue to adriatic sea and east to get Trade Agreement and NA pact
Defend Lilybaeum with Hannibal and dont capture Syracuse to fast to gain experience and ancillaries..
Set High taxes if u want for a few turns...

[PointOfViewGun]

Barcid

My strategy is to avoid Rome. Just ignore your settlements in Lilybaeum and Karalis. You can invest a little on Karalis if you think you can hold it. Instead, focus on Iberia.

First consolidate Carthaginesis. You should be able to take out Edetani to get Arse. Arevaci will support them by declaring war on you, hence, Numantia is your next target. Once you have Carthaginesis you have a good base to invade further from.

Next move is to look for weaknesses, opportunities. In my case, it was New Carthage. Their holdings in Africa were being taken by Masaesyli and their only army in Iberia was on forced march mode. I cancelled my treaties with them and took out that army easily. Then, quickly 3 of their settlements in Iberia were mine.

Public order will definitely be a problem and slow you down. Try to build shrines that provide both public order and cultural influence to tip the balance.

Then you can start working on western Africa and make your way east towards Carthago. Meanwhile, Carthage will remain static. Once I lost Karalis and Lilybaeum Romans never came for Carthago. I still upgraded Carthago and kept some troops inside in case of a siege. I am not sure how the city would hold against a Roman attack. That's the risk.

I also focused on getting the research to recruit Libyan infanty as quickly as possible. Once you have that capability you can create armies of good sword units to counter Roman troops.

[Slaists]

Avoid Rome? It's a rich province with a world wonder.

Lybian infantry? Why? You have the best troops available from merc pool with no research and no barracks needed. All for the measly upkeep of 0... [ok, 0 not achievable right away, but very low merc upkeep for Carthage is possible soon]. Here, my legendary campaign Carthage army composition and you can see the empire in the mini-map. Up to this point, I have not build a single barracks, anywhere.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[magraev]

How on earth do you get the upkeep so low? It looks like you can make the greatest army ever with those elite mercs. Those noble horse start out costing over 700 in upkeep iirc.

oops - just saw your post in another thread - forget it.

[Slaists]

How on earth do you get the upkeep so low? It looks like you can make the greatest army ever with those elite mercs. Those noble horse start out costing over 700 in upkeep iirc.

oops - just saw your post in another thread - forget it.

Yes, it's stacking of upkeep bonuses (like I said in the other thread).

- Carthage gets a faction bonus of -25% to merc upkeep from the start
- The tech tree gives another -15% to merc upkeep; this one can be reached fast; as a bonus there is extra reduction to general army upkeep coming from the same techs (at least -5% or so); so, -20% from tech before going into higher levels
- Dignitary embedded into the army gives extra upkeep reduction; it is variable as it is based on the dignitary's skill (max -18% upkeep), traits and the level of authority; let's say around -20% from the dignitary on average

that's already 25% + 20% + 20% = -65% upkeep there, easily achievable

- Max politically promoted general gives up to -18% from his promotion, but can be even more efficient with traits.
- Grand camp following army tradition gives more upkeep reduction on top of the ones mentioned (just with the first level of this, combined with all of the above, I got to zero upkeep).
- One can go to higher levels with grand camp following and also pick up a mercenary discount tradition for an extra bang for the times when the dignitary and/or the general is young

[magraev]

I'd like to keep the dignitaries out of the army (to make place for a champion), and that should be possible too when the army has the two upkeep-reducing traditions.

carthage bonus -25%
army: camp following -12%
army: merc host -20%
tech -20% (earlyish) or -30% (late)

that's a 87% reduction in the late game before dignitary and general comes into play. You do need an army of rank 8 to get both bonuses though, so you have to depend on both general and dignitary early on. There are several background skills that reduce upkeep too (frugality for one starts at -10%), so that is also someting to shoot for.

[Slaists]

Well, since your supply of dignitaries is limited (especially in the early game), you always can have more experienced armies saving your budget with a dignitary embedded; while fresh armies run around with a champion.

Incidentally, embedding a (high cunning) spy into an army before a battle has very nice effects. One of the benefits of very high army's cunning (general + the spy) is an ability for the general to remove fatigue from everyone within the radius.

[Pheidippides]

I'm having a lot of fun with a VH Carthage GC, which I find to be the most challenging of the major factions (I don't count Epirus as a major faction) even though I'll probably get killed in a few turns. I've ta

[ZocomRaider]

Anyone got any tips for playing Carthage using Divide Et Impera? I keep running into problems, i have to either focus all my efforts on holding back Rome and Syracuse or i have to split my forces up and stop Garamantia, Turdetani and Rome and Syracuse and sometimes Egypt decides they want war too. Masaesyli and Gaetuli help out but not until later on when they have at least 1 full stack each. So it's hard trying to build up my economy and use some of my income on war efforts.

Who is the best faction to go after first and is it a good idea to try and get treaties with Rome and focus on expanding elsewhere?

[Theo]

Just purchased Rome II back in December during the steam sale, having a blast on vanilla with modded skins/generals/camera.

Question, is it still possible to get the This Is Total War achievement on Legendary as the Barcid Dynasty? I tried it while I was still learning the game, and it was a LOT harder than I remember LegendofTotalWar's successful attempt was.

[Slaists]

Just purchased Rome II back in December during the steam sale, having a blast on vanilla with modded skins/generals/camera.

Question, is it still possible to get the This Is Total War achievement on Legendary as the Barcid Dynasty? I tried it while I was still learning the game, and it was a LOT harder than I remember LegendofTotalWar's successful attempt was.

It surely is much harder now than previously. Probably still possible if you migrate you empire to the Western North Africa and start from there. Someone did it with Lusitani. If that's possible, Carthage should be possible too.

[von_zuchter]

I'm playing this campaign right now on Normal and its crazy. The most difficult I've played for years.. Cant even imagine how tough this is on Legendary difficulty level. I'm thinking of restarting the campaign. I've tried to battle all fronts and Its impossible. I also won an epic battle on the first few turns against syracuse and I made peace instead of trying to destroy them because I had to disband the mercenaries to get money to support the was in Spain. This messed up my game cause syracuse declared war again and again and I was never strong enough to capture the city. I wonder if anyone has actually won this in Legendary