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Thread: About units balance

  1. #21

    Default Re: About units balance

    I use this topic to report something related... I did a custom battle against an Amazon faction and they literally slaughtered me, these units...





    ... I've never saw something that strong, they're lethal. Isn't too unbalanced so?

  2. #22

    Default Re: About units balance

    Thank you for posting the opinion.

    First of all, the Custom Battle includes all tiers of units from entry level to tier 5.

    Not all tiers are available when the campaign first started. And to obtain a working faction with level 5 units, it takes 300 turns or a quest completion.

    So to claim there is a unit balance issue because of a custom battle is not conducive to telling the true picture.

    Also if you take a look at the roster you published, the Ballista Elephant and the Carro Ballista are long range mobile artillery units. The tactics is to scatter and not to be decimated by the fire power of the opponent until you can eliminate these units.

    In other words, using the typical me-too Rome Total War tactics will not work in Amazons Total War.
    Last edited by parthian shot; January 03, 2015 at 12:39 PM.
    Amazon Total War: Where Synergies of Mobility, Firepower, & Fieldcraft Never End. Semper Puellis!

  3. #23

    Default Re: About units balance

    Or maybe it's like Alavaria has described.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alavaria View Post
    Hmm, apparently (like in vanilla RTW I guess?) if you play on Hard Campaign and also use Huge unit sizes, the AI will cheerfully turn the whole world into a depopulated wasteland and charge you with masses of its lowest tier units.
    I set up Hard as difficulty and use huge units... but I don't get why this should make difference.

  4. #24

    Default Re: About units balance

    If you play "Doomsday Quest" campaign, then the AI *maybe* might get to use those units. Otherwise it's probably only the player that will be using them in any significant number.

    And yes, you can pretty much own the AI with just two or three of these units in your army. Not all factions get to train them, but the ones that can get access will be able to lay waste to the world with them.



    Playing a faction like the Romans who don't get them might be more... challenging. Actually perhaps if the Geothe Amazon faction was able to grow it would regularly use all these thermite weapon units, as they just have them in their temple_of_forge line, instead of needing to do the "quest" (conquer specific settlements)
    Last edited by Alavaria; January 05, 2015 at 02:44 AM.

  5. #25

    Default Re: About units balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigur Rós View Post
    I set up Hard as difficulty and use huge units... but I don't get why this should make difference.
    Let me go into a bit more detail.

    If you use Hard campaign difficulty and Normal unit sizes, the AI will train and attack with decent units. (ie: elite ones). On Huge, it will train things like Peasants until the towns reach 400 population and be stuck.

    You can still destroy a stack either way with two or three units of incendiary caro ballistae. The AI will also not attack if it sees you have garrisoned your settlements with two or three units of caro ballistae, because their stats are so high autoresolve actually will give them a defeat (if you play manually, you will probably do even better and kill them all with no losses).

    But at least there are many stacks to fight so it is sorta fun.

  6. #26

    Default Re: About units balance

    Alavaria, can you explain me how the unit size option works? For example, a Roman peasants unit is composed of 121 men, if I use huge units what happens?

  7. #27

    Default Re: About units balance

    Huge is 2x the side of Large. And large is 2x the size of normal.

    Where this causes issues is that larger units will take more population out of the settlement. On Huge, this "allows" the AI to end up taking the populations down to the minimum until it can't recruit anymore. So you will see a lot of Town, Large Town... even Cities with maybe 600 population.

  8. #28

    Default Re: About units balance

    I don't understand... if the Roman peasants unit is composed, by default, of 121 men, why, using huge or large units, it should recruit more? Because the formation number changes? I mean, if I set large units the peasants formation will change from 121 to... I don't know, double? 242?

    I still didn't get why in custom battles the Secret Weapon of Goethe Amazon is so strong... because it has the maximum level (5)?

  9. #29

    Default Re: About units balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigur Rós View Post
    I don't understand... if the Roman peasants unit is composed, by default, of 121 men, why, using huge or large units, it should recruit more? Because the formation number changes? I mean, if I set large units the peasants formation will change from 121 to... I don't know, double? 242?

    I still didn't get why in custom battles the Secret Weapon of Goethe Amazon is so strong... because it has the maximum level (5)?
    Normal size should be 60+1... Large is 120+1, Huge is 240+1.

    So if your campaign has 121 sized units is is probably already on Large. And you can't change this once you start a campaign.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigur Rós View Post
    I still didn't get why in custom battles the Secret Weapon of Goethe Amazon is so strong... because it has the maximum level (5)?
    If you see the attack statistic for its missile attack (42), it basically kills anything it hits. A Roman soldier might only have like 20 defense against that, which means they have no chance of surviving.

    Plus it is fairly accurate and it also has a lot of ammunition. Thus, three units can quite easily kill a whole stack.
    Last edited by Alavaria; January 05, 2015 at 06:22 PM.

  10. #30

    Default Re: About units balance

    Clear, thank you... about the Secret Weapon: why they put this unit into the game then? I know, this is a question for parthian...

  11. #31

    Default Re: About units balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigur Rós View Post
    Clear, thank you... about the Secret Weapon: why they put this unit into the game then? I know, this is a question for parthian...

    The question has been answered in the previous posts. In a campaign you need to achieve tier five to recruit such units. The Roman faction has its own tier 5 units to match.

    Such as the tribulus belt (the minefield) and the caro-ballistae to name a few.

    There have been attempts by people who would use the Custom Battle as the example of how "out of balance" the mod is, just to generate negative comments. Many of these people have 50+ user ids just to harp on the same complaints.

    But none of these commentators played Romans, the Suebii (Germans), the Carthaginians, the Sarmatians, or the Far East Celt factions for the entire campaign, only in the Custom Battle

    Once they played such faction in 8.0D, they would find "...the three units which can kill the whole stack..." would never materialize in the campaign, at the least on the none player sides.

    And the real limitation is with AI, not "Out of Balance" units.
    Last edited by parthian shot; January 06, 2015 at 09:03 PM.
    Amazon Total War: Where Synergies of Mobility, Firepower, & Fieldcraft Never End. Semper Puellis!

  12. #32

    Default Re: About units balance

    Quote Originally Posted by parthian shot View Post
    Yes, we already have animation ready for warscape, but would like to wait and see better utilities became available. Currently it is not as straight forward as we would like them to be.
    So there are no plan to port it to M2TW?

  13. #33

    Default Re: About units balance

    Yes, we are porting the mod to M2TW, but had two back to back server failures after Thanksgiving last year.
    Amazon Total War: Where Synergies of Mobility, Firepower, & Fieldcraft Never End. Semper Puellis!

  14. #34

    Default Re: About units balance

    Quote Originally Posted by parthian shot View Post
    Once they played such faction in 8.0D, they would find "...the three units which can kill the whole stack..." would never materialize in the campaign, at the least on the none player sides.
    You did make the Doomsday Quest campaign, which is a pretty great option. (Playing it now as Armens)

    Quote Originally Posted by parthian shot View Post
    And the real limitation is with AI, not "Out of Balance" units.
    Very true. The AI cannot adapt to facing those units, and really even if it got them would not be able to deal with the counters (I think). Will probably try as Romans or something else on the Doomsday Quest campaign after the new version comes out.

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