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Thread: RS2's Future and Mod Ideas:

  1. #21

    Default Re: RS2's Future and Mod Ideas:

    Reading through these suggestions, I'd like to reiterate something I said earlier: I think unit balancing currently is as close to perfect as you're going to get with the RTW engine.

    There are always things that can be done to make the game last longer or make the game more challenging (read this as "harder'"). A lot of these ideas would make a nice submod, to be added by the player if he wants them, rather than forcing them onto a player by removing some existing element of choice from the game. I personally don't think the game needs to be any "harder" or that unit selection needs to be any more limited, just to make someone to play the game the way someone else feels they should play it.

    Everyone has an opinion about what units should be available or not, harder or not. Maybe that's how they ended up with armor-coated elephants in 2.5?

    All I'm saying is right now players have options. If I want to use mercenary units, I can use them....and I do sometimes. If I want to use purely Roman units, that's my choice, too. Yeah, you can accuse me of being "unhistoric" but so what? In the end, it's just a game.

    And I agree with Crymson: I like the way the reforms are currently represented. There's enough control for the player if they choose, or they can not choose and let the game (sort of) go with it.

  2. #22

    Default Re: RS2's Future and Mod Ideas:

    Quote Originally Posted by dvk901 View Post
    First of all, the current 'Marian Reforms' event will be done away with and replaced with a fully 'player controlled' building. You build it, and the Marian Reforms occur. You don't build it, and you can play the whole game with the Polybians if you choose. Building it will allow the 'Roman Legionary' and 1st cohort to appear, and all other pre-Marian units will disappear. You can stop there if you wish, and play the whole campaign that way. I guess you could, but it isn't fun to do: no auxilia yet and no pre-marian units means one is stuck with roman legionaries. In this time frame unit variety is just not as good as in the other two which makes it a bit dull.

    Second, building the 'Imperial Reforms' building will 'unlock' all of the named and numbered Legions and Auxilia units. The generic Roman Legionary will disappear, and be replaced with all the new units.

  3. #23
    dvk901's Avatar Consummatum est
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    Default Re: RS2's Future and Mod Ideas:

    I'm assuming the 'red' is an inserted comment, since I never said that. And it is untrue that there wouldn't be plenty of units to use, since all of the units in the Citizenship and client state buildings would still be there and available. And historically, that was what WAS available to the Romans other than their own Legions until the Reforms of Augustus.

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  4. #24

    Default Re: RS2's Future and Mod Ideas:

    I have read your entire post and not only do I think this is, by far, the best and most complex (and even complicated if you want a challenge) mod for RTW, but I also fully support every single point of what you just wrote here.

    In my oppinion, the mod is really great but I chose not to play it anymore at this point because it's just simply too complex in a redundant way (certain buildings, building trees perhaps) and just not very user/beginner user friendly despite fully understanding what you guys are trying to do with the mod.

    The background scrips that give the AI certain advantageous just make it as if they're cheating and the units die very slowly just isn't really realistic to me, but I am still waiting for a patch that will slightly overhaul the entire thing and make it a good experience for all of us.

  5. #25

    Default Re: RS2's Future and Mod Ideas:

    @DVK
    Is the Imperial Era mod out of discussion?.I understand that this mod is "Rome Arises" but how impossible would it be to continue it?I`m at the end of my roman campaign for the second time in RS2 and all I want is to be able to continue this marvellous "history making" mod.You have created the most stable, state of the art mod in every aspect,thank you for a lot of epic moments while playing it.

  6. #26
    Tiro
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    Default Re: RS2's Future and Mod Ideas:

    Omg, dvk, I wish you a good team fullfilling all these (and those which are about to come) ideas!

    This post has really lifted me up. I enjoy seeing RS changing and evolving all the time. I strongly support all the features you've suggested (especially those, concerning roman recruitment (I gave permission for such an idea in my subconciousness long ago) and diplomacy issues), though I'm sorry at this moment I can't give you any ideas of my own.

    RS, no doubt, is the best TW mod ever made!
    Last edited by Zydrius; October 25, 2013 at 06:45 AM. Reason: correction

    „There can be greater mods than Roma Surrectum 2, but simply there are none!“, Zydrius

  7. #27
    SD_Man's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: RS2's Future and Mod Ideas:

    Quote Originally Posted by cleef View Post
    I have read your entire post and not only do I think this is, by far, the best and most complex (and even complicated if you want a challenge) mod for RTW, but I also fully support every single point of what you just wrote here.

    In my oppinion, the mod is really great but I chose not to play it anymore at this point because it's just simply too complex in a redundant way (certain buildings, building trees perhaps) and just not very user/beginner user friendly despite fully understanding what you guys are trying to do with the mod.

    The background scrips that give the AI certain advantageous just make it as if they're cheating and the units die very slowly just isn't really realistic to me, but I am still waiting for a patch that will slightly overhaul the entire thing and make it a good experience for all of us.
    1. Too complex? Im assuming that you have played other Total War campaigns before so it's not really that stretched compared to the RPG system of modern TW games. Plus if you just let it sink in, everything becomes easier, dont over-complicate it.
    2. According to changes done in this mod, realism is less of a concern compared to accuracy; the ai is just to dumb to be able to survive against the player's onslaught so these were introduced so the campaign wouldnt be as easy for the player as before. If you really want to up the kill rate just use sub-mods, the point of the slow deaths was to increase the use of tactics and maneuvering.
    Last edited by SD_Man; October 25, 2013 at 03:09 PM.

  8. #28

    Default Re: RS2's Future and Mod Ideas:

    I actually like the way that the Reforms are currently represented. Historically, they did not occur purely as the result of choice, but rather of necessity; the Polybian system was highly Republican, and the change to the Marian system was a paradigm shift that would have grave consequences. In other words, the Reforms would never have occurred in lieu of the major extenuating circumstances that necessitated them. Making it a simple choice would dilute their importance, IMO. R2TW already does this, and I don't like it.
    It was a choice, in the sense that nothing physically or logically forced them to make that choice. Of course, Akragas doesn't need to become a Huge City, so it's already a matter of player choice.

    It was however a smart choice to make (at least it seems so to me in hindsight), due to external circumstances like economic considerations and changes in the way their enemies fought. So if we were going to simplify that enough to model it in the game, some economic factors and/or changes in an AI faction's construction/recruitment or economic/political systems would ultimately be the reason for the Roman reforms, which is not to say those come in the form of an immediate cause of them (as a mechanic in the game triggering it without your choice would simulate). What this suggests is that the Romans need to face an increased challenge from AI factions in the form of their better economies and better militaries, so that Romans "must" get to the reforms in order to compete in this sort of arms race. In other words, the other factions ought to have "reforms" of some sort too -- at least some of the major factions, but not "free people" or perhaps others.

    At present, it seems to me the situation is already very easy for the Romans. (That's not necessarily true at the very beginning of the campaign, but once it stabilizes, you can effectively stomp all over other factions with pre-Marian units and conquer the whole map. The rebellions also make things difficult, but this is beside the point and much of it is in any case due to fighting other Roman-style units.) The post-Marian units only make it that much easier, rather than being just enough to gain the upper hand again. Granted, the Romans were historically very successful, for a variety of reasons, and there weren't such vast changes in the way warfare was conducted that the AI needs to start producing impossibly-powerful units or absolutely rolling in cash. But they ought to be strong enough and develop over the long term in some way (aside from having very-costly "elites" available in high-end barracks from the very beginning), so that the Roman reforms seem to be a necessary choice for the player to keep up, even if the reforms are costly in other ways. I'm not sure what exactly can be done, considering the limits on the unit roster have already been reached, but perhaps the AI (and only the AI) should get greater bonuses to weapons/armor/experience/morale from very high-end barracks/temples/foundaries/whatever so that no matter which units they end up recruiting they'll pose a somewhat bigger challenge. And they could have more effective generals: better traits, ancillaries, higher command, etc., in fighting (who will promptly charge straight into a mass of spearmen) and better governors who can reduce recruitment costs and such. I guess these changes could be triggered with the Marian Reforms, so that effectively you've made your own problem to solve, or there could be other things independently for each faction that come into play.

  9. #29

    Default Re: RS2's Future and Mod Ideas:

    Hey DVk

    Not too sure what to add at this moment esp with regards to the proposed changes esp but I definitely like some of the ideas being proposed esp the Fortfied and economy cities. I don;t have any ideas of my own at the mo but if any do pop into my wee head I'll be sure to post.

    Agree with SD .. the mod as is isn;t complex at all and the changes that DVK/Tone/Apple have made to the units in my book really work to improve the game.

  10. #30
    dvk901's Avatar Consummatum est
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    Default Re: RS2's Future and Mod Ideas:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ovidius Empiricus View Post
    It was a choice, in the sense that nothing physically or logically forced them to make that choice. Of course, Akragas doesn't need to become a Huge City, so it's already a matter of player choice.

    It was however a smart choice to make (at least it seems so to me in hindsight), due to external circumstances like economic considerations and changes in the way their enemies fought. So if we were going to simplify that enough to model it in the game, some economic factors and/or changes in an AI faction's construction/recruitment or economic/political systems would ultimately be the reason for the Roman reforms, which is not to say those come in the form of an immediate cause of them (as a mechanic in the game triggering it without your choice would simulate). What this suggests is that the Romans need to face an increased challenge from AI factions in the form of their better economies and better militaries, so that Romans "must" get to the reforms in order to compete in this sort of arms race. In other words, the other factions ought to have "reforms" of some sort too -- at least some of the major factions, but not "free people" or perhaps others.

    At present, it seems to me the situation is already very easy for the Romans. (That's not necessarily true at the very beginning of the campaign, but once it stabilizes, you can effectively stomp all over other factions with pre-Marian units and conquer the whole map. The rebellions also make things difficult, but this is beside the point and much of it is in any case due to fighting other Roman-style units.) The post-Marian units only make it that much easier, rather than being just enough to gain the upper hand again. Granted, the Romans were historically very successful, for a variety of reasons, and there weren't such vast changes in the way warfare was conducted that the AI needs to start producing impossibly-powerful units or absolutely rolling in cash. But they ought to be strong enough and develop over the long term in some way (aside from having very-costly "elites" available in high-end barracks from the very beginning), so that the Roman reforms seem to be a necessary choice for the player to keep up, even if the reforms are costly in other ways. I'm not sure what exactly can be done, considering the limits on the unit roster have already been reached, but perhaps the AI (and only the AI) should get greater bonuses to weapons/armor/experience/morale from very high-end barracks/temples/foundaries/whatever so that no matter which units they end up recruiting they'll pose a somewhat bigger challenge. And they could have more effective generals: better traits, ancillaries, higher command, etc., in fighting (who will promptly charge straight into a mass of spearmen) and better governors who can reduce recruitment costs and such. I guess these changes could be triggered with the Marian Reforms, so that effectively you've made your own problem to solve, or there could be other things independently for each faction that come into play.
    There are some good ideas and thoughts in here...especially the parts about the Romans changing their military to meet a need. It brings to mind in my pondering of this that the reason for the Marian Reforms was population, more than anything. The wealthy and 'landed' men of the Republic had been so depleted over the years due to constant wars that allowing those with no wealth or property to serve in the Legions was the only real solution to the problem. The way to simulate this may be to make it hard for the Romans to grow population-wise until one of the reform buildings is built, and then apply a faction wide population growth bonus as well in that building.

    Also, you make a good point about armor and weapon bonuses. Giving them to the AI but not the player would certainly make things more challenging...but I'll have to think on that one, because some players are already pretty challenged..like me.

    BTW: Updated first post.

    Creator of: "Ecce, Roma Surrectum....Behold, Rome Arises!"
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  11. #31
    ImperialAquila's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: RS2's Future and Mod Ideas:

    Quote Originally Posted by dvk901 View Post
    I am also seeking and hoping for someone who can help or figure out either WHY all the buildings in a settlement can't be seen in the normal Strat UI...OR....find a way that the 'destroy buildings' button in the building browser could be activated so that they could be destroyed there. You can see the buildings there, but you can't get rid of them if you wanted. The button is just always disabled. Frustrating, and I'd love to fix this.
    They don't show all of them because the Strat UI has a limited number of slots (I don't know the exact count) for the buildings. So if you go over that, the other buildings won't show up.

    I think the "destroy buildings" button in the building browser might just be a left out (or uncompleted and untested) feature. It might even be hard-coded. I'll check it out for you. CA has a habit of releasing games in a half-finished state.

  12. #32

    Default Re: RS2's Future and Mod Ideas:

    @DVK

    You just reminded me of a number of battles against Parthia when beta testing some changes a few years back and the AI started to field stacks full of silver/gold level armour and some silver chevron cat's and horse archer units which made me go weak at the knees wondering how I'd be able to take them on with the armies that I had. I'm all for making the battles harder but in wee doses !

    Now with say the Seleucid's, from historical records had "Apamea" as their central military training school (traits weapons/warefare instructors) and and by all accounts all units whether they were in the far eastern part of the emprire spent some time at Apamea. So for the Greek/Hellen factions for the level 1 barracks to be available you should have to build a gynamisum and the elite/Royal Guard units should only be be available from Fortified cities and even then restricted to one or two specific ones which have a Military Training School. Apamea for example also ended up playing the same role under Roman rule.
    Last edited by TTRouble; October 26, 2013 at 07:28 AM.

  13. #33

    Default Re: RS2's Future and Mod Ideas:

    Great ideas, DVK.

    Two thoughts...

    It'd be great if someone would like to take on the issue of buildings costs which are currently pretty much all over the place and have no real sense or consistency.

    What about separating out cav recruitment from infantry? Is there any scope for this? Then cav could be made more expensive as they would have a separate track for recruitment......probably more effective for 1 turn campaigns.


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  14. #34

    Default Re: RS2's Future and Mod Ideas:

    Well, I would like to see the strat resource models from EB, if you manage to get the permissions.

    You also said that there were building slots avaiable or something like that, well personally for Sparta ( Since you're planning to make changes in all factions, not only for Rome ) I would like to see the Agoge as a building ( Since the army is deployed by the Moras ), I think it would be nice to the Agoge to be some kind of training/experience building, which would give recruited units experience bonuses, but also it would cost some money to mantain such building ( wich many buldings does to simulate the upkeep ).

  15. #35

    Default Re: RS2's Future and Mod Ideas:

    Quote Originally Posted by dvk901 View Post
    Also, you make a good point about armor and weapon bonuses. Giving them to the AI but not the player would certainly make things more challenging...but I'll have to think on that one, because some players are already pretty challenged..like me.

    BTW: Updated first post.
    Not that my opinion matters, but I wouldn't be in favor of such an idea.

    I don't know if anyone saw my earlier post (of about 10 days ago), but I started a 2.6 campaign on Hard/Hard and did not immediately increase my weapon and armor bonuses (playing Rome). One reason for doing that is because in 2.6, you don't get economic bonuses for building these buildings. Another reason is I thought I wanted a challenge.

    And I got a challenge all right. I was used to other mods where Roman units roll over the enemy. That did not happen in RSII 2.6. My units were slaughtered. And it wasn't bad tactical decisions, although I'm probably not the best player (and didn't use a lot of gamey tactics). It was math, pure and simple.

    Try recruiting a Roman legion with in 609 AUC and sending them against a equally large unit of Gauls or Boii with three or four "champion" units with silver armor and weapon/experience bonuses. Your units can have none. Watch what happens. Unless you're a great player, your legion will be cut to pieces. The champion units have more men and equal to or higher stats. Combine this with an economy that doesn't allow you to spam units (and shouldn't) and you already have a challenging game.

    I'm starting a new game today on hard/medium (battle map).

  16. #36
    High Fist's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: RS2's Future and Mod Ideas:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Works View Post
    Try recruiting a Roman legion with in 609 AUC and sending them against a equally large unit of Gauls or Boii with three or four "champion" units with silver armor and weapon/experience bonuses. Your units can have none. Watch what happens. Unless you're a great player, your legion will be cut to pieces. The champion units have more men and equal to or higher stats. Combine this with an economy that doesn't allow you to spam units (and shouldn't) and you already have a challenging game.
    Fighting against an upgraded opponent with an un-upgraded army of the same size should always result in your armies death. Same as vanilla.

    I wouldn't rely on un-upgraded units
    even on easy mode.
    The only self-discipline you need is to finish your sandwiches

  17. #37

    Default Re: RS2's Future and Mod Ideas:

    Quote Originally Posted by Achilles Lacedaemon View Post
    Well, I would like to see the strat resource models from EB, if you manage to get the permissions.

    You also said that there were building slots avaiable or something like that, well personally for Sparta ( Since you're planning to make changes in all factions, not only for Rome ) I would like to see the Agoge as a building ( Since the army is deployed by the Moras ), I think it would be nice to the Agoge to be some kind of training/experience building, which would give recruited units experience bonuses, but also it would cost some money to mantain such building ( wich many buldings does to simulate the upkeep ).
    That's something which I'm thinking about too. That would be really cool. If theres a Agoge building then it should not only give experience to spartan units. Generals could get their training too and when they pass the get the Spartiates trait. And I would say this building should only be in Sparta and not in any other cities, or atleast only greek regions that are fortified. This adds strategy to it.

  18. #38

    Default Re: RS2's Future and Mod Ideas:

    Quote Originally Posted by High Fist View Post

    Fighting against an upgraded opponent with an un-upgraded army of the same size should always result in your armies death. Same as vanilla.

    I wouldn't rely on un-upgraded units
    even on easy mode.
    My point exactly. I think the game is balanced enough as it is.

    I really don't think RSII needs to be made any "harder." At some point it will end up being like playing KoJ in Broken Crescent - a mod I love but that creates a terribly frustrating game experience. And there are similar mods out there that just make game unbearably hard or, equally bad, incredibly time consuming. A single game turn lasting four hours??!! Who has time for that?

    Playing for 2 to 3 hours a day for now three weeks, I just finished turn 609 AUC, in which I fought four battles against the Boii, the Averni (the Gauls), and the Macedonians. The turn took over an hour since I fought the battles myself. At this rate, it will take me years to finish the game.

    I think this mod is great and I appreciate all the work that went into it. But if decisions are made to make it harder and more time consuming, I'll probably move on to something else. Just my two cents.

  19. #39
    paradamed's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: RS2's Future and Mod Ideas:

    I like the idea of a visual upgrade of military cities. I just think you guys could create a better model that blends smoother instead of using the M2TW fort. I like all of the proposed ideas as complicated as they sound but they are interesting.

  20. #40
    dvk901's Avatar Consummatum est
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    Default Re: RS2's Future and Mod Ideas:

    Quote Originally Posted by ImperialAquila View Post
    They don't show all of them because the Strat UI has a limited number of slots (I don't know the exact count) for the buildings. So if you go over that, the other buildings won't show up.
    I think the "destroy buildings" button in the building browser might just be a left out (or uncompleted and untested) feature. It might even be hard-coded. I'll check it out for you. CA has a habit of releasing games in a half-finished state.
    Thank you. Much appreciated!

    Quote Originally Posted by TTRouble View Post
    @DVK

    You just reminded me of a number of battles against Parthia when beta testing some changes a few years back and the AI started to field stacks full of silver/gold level armour and some silver chevron cat's and horse archer units which made me go weak at the knees wondering how I'd be able to take them on with the armies that I had. I'm all for making the battles harder but in wee doses !

    Now with say the Seleucid's, from historical records had "Apamea" as their central military training school (traits weapons/warefare instructors) and and by all accounts all units whether they were in the far eastern part of the emprire spent some time at Apamea. So for the Greek/Hellen factions for the level 1 barracks to be available you should have to build a gynamisum and the elite/Royal Guard units should only be be available from Fortified cities and even then restricted to one or two specific ones which have a Military Training School. Apamea for example also ended up playing the same role under Roman rule.
    Thank you for this info. I have added it to my notes for when I work on Seleucid.

    Quote Originally Posted by tone View Post
    Great ideas, DVK.

    Two thoughts...
    It'd be great if someone would like to take on the issue of buildings costs which are currently pretty much all over the place and have no real sense or consistency.
    What about separating out cav recruitment from infantry? Is there any scope for this? Then cav could be made more expensive as they would have a separate track for recruitment......probably more effective for 1 turn campaigns.
    I'll check building costs when I make changes to the EDB's. As for cavalry, I am still convinced that it is the 'strength+num. of men+cost' that will always determine whether the AI will recruit cavalry or not. To prove the point, I changed Generals in my test bed to have the same number of men as normal cavalry units, and adjusted their cost so that a General was no more expensive than an 'elite' cavalry unit. The AI immediately began recruiting them, and a far greater percentage of AI armies have Generals in them.



    Quote Originally Posted by Achilles Lacedaemon View Post
    Well, I would like to see the strat resource models from EB, if you manage to get the permissions.
    You also said that there were building slots avaiable or something like that, well personally for Sparta ( Since you're planning to make changes in all factions, not only for Rome ) I would like to see the Agoge as a building ( Since the army is deployed by the Moras ), I think it would be nice to the Agoge to be some kind of training/experience building, which would give recruited units experience bonuses, but also it would cost some money to mantain such building ( wich many buldings does to simulate the upkeep ).
    Funny you should mention the EB1 strat resource models. I have been asking around and trying to find someone to ask permission of, but it has been difficult.
    Good suggestion about the agoge building...into my notes for the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Works View Post
    Not that my opinion matters, but I wouldn't be in favor of such an idea.
    I don't know if anyone saw my earlier post (of about 10 days ago), but I started a 2.6 campaign on Hard/Hard and did not immediately increase my weapon and armor bonuses (playing Rome). One reason for doing that is because in 2.6, you don't get economic bonuses for building these buildings. Another reason is I thought I wanted a challenge.
    And I got a challenge all right. I was used to other mods where Roman units roll over the enemy. That did not happen in RSII 2.6. My units were slaughtered. And it wasn't bad tactical decisions, although I'm probably not the best player (and didn't use a lot of gamey tactics). It was math, pure and simple.
    Try recruiting a Roman legion with in 609 AUC and sending them against a equally large unit of Gauls or Boii with three or four "champion" units with silver armor and weapon/experience bonuses. Your units can have none. Watch what happens. Unless you're a great player, your legion will be cut to pieces. The champion units have more men and equal to or higher stats. Combine this with an economy that doesn't allow you to spam units (and shouldn't) and you already have a challenging game.
    I'm starting a new game today on hard/medium (battle map).
    Everyone's opinion matters to me, my friend. I have found RS2 battles quite difficult as it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by paradamed View Post
    I like the idea of a visual upgrade of military cities. I just think you guys could create a better model that blends smoother instead of using the M2TW fort. I like all of the proposed ideas as complicated as they sound but they are interesting.
    Yeah, I know. But it was all I could find so far. I may use a small 'Legion' shield, like LT1956 used in SPQR, or something else. It was just a 'thing' for now to show what I mean when I say that a Fortified city would be easy to spot.

    First posted updated again.
    Last edited by dvk901; October 27, 2013 at 06:43 PM.

    Creator of: "Ecce, Roma Surrectum....Behold, Rome Arises!"
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