Generals die first...

**JaM** · October 20, 2013, 05:00 AM

Some of you noticed Generals have quite low timespan in battle. Here is explanation why:

Every unit entity has a central point, which is placed in center of front rank. When you attack some unit, your unit will always try to attack that single point. When you select 2 or more units and attack single enemy unit, all your units in the end will occupy same space,because of that - they are trying to attack enemy in that central spot. Even if you order to attack from flank, your unit will still want to follow the path to that central point. And this is same with ranged weapons too. If you take any accurate unit and fire at enemy unit, you will notice men in center getting killed first...

AND now guess where usually General is placed if you use any Infantry unit as his bodyguards...

This is not the first thread describing this since game came out. This single mechanics is main cause of units blobbing together, yes even after 5 patches it was not fixed, and I'm afraid this wont be ever fixed. This mechanics was first introduced in ETW, and more or less taken over to NTW and S2TW as well... Truth to be told, i have no idea what to do, to make CA listen and finally after all those years fix this bug or faulty mechanics. So, if any of you have any means how to contact somebody from CA and let him know about this, please do so.

**YassirX** · October 20, 2013, 05:23 AM

Its your fault to engage your general in direct melee combat, its totally accurate that the enemy focuses on him rather than one of his bodyguard units.
If you want to use your General in combat, spec him up in the Warrior-Trait and make sure that he is having a Cavalry unit.

**Heinz Guderian** · October 20, 2013, 05:27 AM

Nothing is so good for the morale of the troops as occasionally to see a dead general

**wulfgar610** · October 20, 2013, 06:00 AM

Oddly, playing today the generals survivability seems to have improved. In the process of trying to suicide an over abundant house, I had general units down to almost nothing and the general surviving. Although these were in city fights, I haven't checked field battles yet.

Maybe patch5 corrected it?

**JaM** · October 20, 2013, 06:33 AM

no, it didnt. just let enemy skirmishers to target your general bodyguard unit. (if it is infantry) and you will see.

**Kenios** · October 20, 2013, 06:59 AM

Patch 5 lowered troop hp. Some people said the patch brought the hp back to what it was previously. Anyway, keep that in mind while using your general.

**JaM** · October 20, 2013, 07:07 AM

WHile i named this tread on generals, its not the generals themselves that are the issue. Its the way how attacking works. That sole thing needs to be corrected for combat to work properly. Its not just generals that are problem here. They are just a secondary thing. Problem is blobing, and inability to flank enemy units properly.

**Humble Warrior** · October 20, 2013, 07:08 AM

Originally Posted by JaM

Some of you noticed Generals have quite low timespan in battle. Here is explanation why:

Every unit entity has a central point, which is placed in center of front rank. When you attack some unit, your unit will always try to attack that single point. When you select 2 or more units and attack single enemy unit, all your units in the end will occupy same space,because of that - they are trying to attack enemy in that central spot. Even if you order to attack from flank, your unit will still want to follow the path to that central point. And this is same with ranged weapons too. If you take any accurate unit and fire at enemy unit, you will notice men in center getting killed first...

AND now guess where usually General is placed if you use any Infantry unit as his bodyguards...

Exactly because of this I always keep my General unit at the back, infantry or cavalry. But then again I always kept my General`s unit at the back, keeping them out of harm`s way, risking them only when I absolutely had to. Isn`t this normal and even realistic?

Originally Posted by JaM

This is not the first thread describing this since game came out. This single mechanics is main cause of units blobbing together, yes even after 5 patches it was not fixed, and I'm afraid this wont be ever fixed. This mechanics was first introduced in ETW, and more or less taken over to NTW and S2TW as well... Truth to be told, i have no idea what to do, to make CA listen and finally after all those years fix this bug or faulty mechanics. So, if any of you have any means how to contact somebody from CA and let him know about this, please do so.

I agree here, also, the blobbing is caused because CA failed or ignored the fact that Roman solider, while of course being individuals, did not generally fight as individuals but as a UNIT. If CA had made the mechanics so Romans fought as Romans did and left the independent single fight to barbarians then I`ll bet this blobbing would never have existed. It`ll probably never be fixed because it needs rewriting of the Roman battle mechanics and CA aren`t going to that effort- eva! Even TV shows and films show how it was and still CA messed it up.

**major** · October 20, 2013, 07:08 AM

In two battles after patching up to 5 my general died by sling! They both were Triari BG unit. I didn't envolve my generals to mele combat but still it was not enough

I totally agree with author of op.

**EternalSilence** · October 20, 2013, 09:04 AM

Originally Posted by JaM

Some of you noticed Generals have quite low timespan in battle. Here is explanation why:

Every unit entity has a central point, which is placed in center of front rank. When you attack some unit, your unit will always try to attack that single point. When you select 2 or more units and attack single enemy unit, all your units in the end will occupy same space,because of that - they are trying to attack enemy in that central spot. Even if you order to attack from flank, your unit will still want to follow the path to that central point. And this is same with ranged weapons too. If you take any accurate unit and fire at enemy unit, you will notice men in center getting killed first...

AND now guess where usually General is placed if you use any Infantry unit as his bodyguards...

This is not the first thread describing this since game came out. This single mechanics is main cause of units blobbing together, yes even after 5 patches it was not fixed, and I'm afraid this wont be ever fixed. This mechanics was first introduced in ETW, and more or less taken over to NTW and S2TW as well... Truth to be told, i have no idea what to do, to make CA listen and finally after all those years fix this bug or faulty mechanics. So, if any of you have any means how to contact somebody from CA and let him know about this, please do so.

You have a valid point.
But on the other hand. If i was commander of a cohort, and i saw the general units with his bodygaurd come after me. My first reaction would be: all try to kill the general, screw his bodyguards.

Also, dont engage your general in combat.
i only use it to flank units or use it for 'hit and run' tactics.

It is also smart to attackt he center: put or horsemen in diamond and charge the center. This will the units will be broken in 2, and will have to fight 3 sides: the front and two in on the in the middle of the unit.

**karamazovmm** · October 20, 2013, 09:09 AM

Originally Posted by JaM

WHile i named this tread on generals, its not the generals themselves that are the issue. Its the way how attacking works. That sole thing needs to be corrected for combat to work properly. Its not just generals that are problem here. They are just a secondary thing. Problem is blobing, and inability to flank enemy units properly.

the main problem here is how they would rewrite the path that units take on attacking the other.

you described perfectly the problem is that units are in route to the center of the unit they are going to attack, and proceed to do so while attacking, to go to the center of the unit.

i dont know how that path was done in previous warscape games, but its present in all warscape games

**Bohannan** · October 20, 2013, 09:18 AM

Sometimes when you 1to1 with the AI you have no option but to engage with your general before one side gets flanked and mass routing starts on that side. Its true, seen like hes bodyguards feed him to the wolves.

**rvtende** · October 20, 2013, 12:13 PM

It seems to have worsened with patch 5, my generals have died in almost every battle i've played so far. doesn't matter if you engage units or not cause slings will kill him with their first or second volley anyway. at least that's what happened in all my battles with patch 5 so far.

**AusHaching** · October 20, 2013, 12:45 PM

My generals also die very fast - and I only use mounted generals. They can not be used in melee at all. And if you keep them close enough so that their command radius will actually help with moral, enemy skirmishers and siege engines will target them.

Right now, it is best to keep the general on the far side of any map. As soon as they die, every unit gets the "general is dead" morale disadvantage.

But, as stated before, attacking the center of an enemy unit is the core problem. It wasn´t really relevant in ETW, as ranged combat is the norm, but it sure is a problem in RTW2.

**Fallen Phalangite** · October 20, 2013, 01:30 PM

I've noticed this too, which is a damn shame since I prefer to have my generals fight on foot than on horseback.

**Jofoblie** · October 20, 2013, 01:56 PM

I'm certain this is a bug, twice now I've had my general be the very first soldier to die. In fact, in on battle in the general's unit he was the ONLY one to die. I havn't had anything like this until patch 5, usually the generals are very strong.

**craziii** · October 20, 2013, 02:04 PM

well, this is already 10x better than in rtw n m2tw where the general is on the edge. putting generals into the middle is suppose to protect him. if you are using your general on the front lines or letting him sit there and get peppered by slings or any other range unit, you are playing the battles incorrectly. which is why I prefer mounted generals. easier to get out of the danger zones, and if needed provide a last ditch charge.

**Jofoblie** · October 20, 2013, 02:11 PM

DEFINITELY a bug. It just happened again, literally the first man to die in the entire battle. I think they accidentally gave him no defence or HP or something.

**#TheTBNR™** · October 20, 2013, 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by major

In two battles after patching up to 5 my general died by sling! They both were Triari BG unit. I didn't envolve my generals to mele combat but still it was not enough

I totally agree with author of op.

Same happened to me as well, Triarii bodyguard unit is completely useless, they don't even protect the general... I lost 2 generals in one battle because of the enemy missile troops... the general need more hit points i think.

**Mangalore** · October 20, 2013, 05:54 PM

I had quite a number of generals as elite phalangites survive pretty good. Only if their unit got decimated in melee he obviously dies easily but well, I put him there so I have none to blame for this. Otherwise, well guarded by _other_ units so he is the linchpin to turn the battle, not the grinding front winning the attrition match, they seem fine to me.