Creative Assembly Business Practice Discussion Thread (Rome II)

[Butan]

How would you feel ? Bad.

How would you act ? Keep protecting them ? Keep silent ? Or say the truth ?

[Radzeer]

Don't forget the buyer too. The buyer is the one who supported this kind business practice. Of course it's much easier to blame others than ourselves right ?

No, I don't forget them, in fact I think that is the core of the problem. By and large, people in this current gaming generation are much less on the market for games that require them to think and put a lot more emphasis on graphics. Those who grew up on Commodore 64 and floppy disks have different mindsets (I am generalizing here of course). In the past 15 years or so, developers figured this out and created/marketed products accordingly. And in the meantime, product managers, sort of the mid-level leadership changed too and is now recruited from the same crowd. This explains why they are so in tune with the general customer demand.

The difference for TW is that this was a niche game on which the above change was not necessarily applicable - except if the developer decides to go for a "wider fanbase". I mean CKII is alive and well - it works for a much smaller (and even more niche) fanbase, but that still produces enough profit for Paradox to keep the title running. From a business perspective, TW was much like CK until now.

[omzdog]

I'd like to remind you that Cambodian peasant contribution to the developments of the Khmer Rouge and their actions while in power were zilch.

Saying consumers are responsible for the quality of products is like trying to attribute the same level of responsibility to German citizens living under Nazi repression and hanging those citizens for the crime of national aggression.
The game here is to blame the victims.

[alhoon]

Anyone who buys another total war game in the future and expects it to be be worth something is an imbecile and a idiot.

No. That's your opinion. I like R2TW.

[Lord Baal]

He's doing his job, presumably his job, among other things, imply covering CA ass, or get his own landed on the street. If he has a family depending on that I can understand him doing what he does. Is still no justification to cover what basically was a millionaire con, but there's nothing he can do really.

[Humble Warrior]

Don't forget the buyer too. The buyer is the one who supported this kind business practice. Of course it's much easier to blame others than ourselves right ?

In this case putting blame on the customer is not fair at all, inmho.

CA promised all sorts of things to the Rome fan with Rome 2 (including brilliant AI, etc) while, actually focusing on the `non-fan` who wouldn`t really see the differences in reality. That`s why we ended up with something most fans actually don`t like and many new buyers to the game who`ver never played RTW2, seem to like (or can`t tell the difference).

Let`s not forget, though, that some casual or fair-weather users were actually expecting more from Rome 2 than what they got. Many didn`t actually want `arcade`either. Those utube ads, etc didn`t give the impression they`d get battles of 5000+ men lasting 3 minutes.

The Fans didn`t tell them to do that, CA did what it wanted to and took the risk of deceiving us.

CA are working a lot like politicians with money to spare on adverts, utube, etc and they figure; shove enough rubbish at people hard and long enough and even the naysayers will believe it and like it. Some so much bought into it they will refuse to admit something`s wrong even now.

Anyway, the end result speaks for itself. I have never, in all my time, through several TWs ever seen such a backlash of anger before.

Blame the system if you want, but not the fans that waited since RTW original for a great successor.

[karamazovmm]

for me its the same thing as people suing tobacco companies. Its moronic.

The health adds have been gone for a long time, you smoke because you want. I smoke because I want.

You bought the game because you wanted it. The only case of false advert was the one of the language packs. Because simply put false advert is punishable, and people know how to cover their arses.

You bought it because you wanted it.

[Humble Warrior]

You bought it because you wanted it.

Oh if it was that simple. It isn`t.

[karamazovmm]

Oh if it was that simple. It isn`t.

how was the gun to your head? how much threatened did you feel? did they use seduction instead of fear? was there a girl or guy lap dancing, making moves on you but would only close the deal if you bought the game?

its simple, you bought it because you want it. its not an essential item to your life, its not for example water and the only distributor is CA

you bought it because you wanted it.

but you never said, if you bought your game, pirated, got as gift, punched a baby and stole it from him/her, got it as a prize in a cereal box?

I hope its the baby option, its more fun

[♔hammeredalways♔]

was there a girl or guy lap dancing, making moves on you but would only close the deal if you bought the game?

I blame Heinz, he said it was just a club and I had no idea about the dancing girls.............., still the video he took of that night meant I had no choice but to agree to his wicked plot for me to purchase RTW2,

Mr Guderian I salute you for your scheming - how many others have fell victim

[omzdog]

you smoke because you want. I smoke because I want.

want = make the active decision to engage in
Not at all.
Addiction is real.

Humans are a lot like mice.
You don't blame the mouse for 'deciding' to act if those actions stemmed from neurological manipulation,
nicotine of course being the active agent.

Blaming the victim for tastes and tendency is the wrong approach as well.
Same as judging a game based on sales.
Whats most likely happening in this scenario are the after effects of the previous addiction
RTW, M2TW, NTW, S2 and their expansions added with marketing.

Besides that I love you Karamazovmm and I want you to stop smoking because I love you.
I want you to put the next fag down because of my love for you.

[MDCCLXXVI]

Careful that's your fellow man you're referencing.

Really though.
In a consumer society the whole point is to remove decision making from the bottom rung.
That includes thinking about what they like.
Tastes and preferences are often manipulated with the many half truths and lies of marketing.

So you might think you liked that elephant crushing the hastati soldier with its trunk in the pre-alpha preview,
what you actually were looking at was a photoshoped image of in-game objects.
So there was nothing to like or dislike because it was entirely fantasy.
Like magic!!!! Good public-relations industry does good industrial programming of the public mind.

Engineering consent of the victim.

[omzdog]

Not only do you have to be oppressed,
but you must also enjoy it.

I believe this is what started the 'In Soviet Russia' meme.
The backwards thinking of the intelligencia commanding the people to support their efforts then labeling themselves 'of the people'.

[Humble Warrior]

how was the gun to your head? how much threatened did you feel? did they use seduction instead of fear? was there a girl or guy lap dancing, making moves on you but would only close the deal if you bought the game?

its simple, you bought it because you want it. its not an essential item to your life, its not for example water and the only distributor is CA

you bought it because you wanted it.

but you never said, if you bought your game, pirated, got as gift, punched a baby and stole it from him/her, got it as a prize in a cereal box?

I hope its the baby option, its more fun

Have you ever watched an advert of something you have NO interest in. Then suddenly found you want it even though you actually have no need for it?

Have you found yourself buying something then never ever using it? And even wondering why you bought it?

Do actually ever wonder why there`s a huge advertising industry and why some companies spend over 70% of their budget on an advert than the product?

There is a subconscous and advertisers work hard to get through to it, by colour, music, human facial manipulation and themes. Learn what makes each of us tick and you can sell even what we don`t want to us. It`s one reason why I watch very little TV these days.

You live in a simplified and naive world if you truly believe we buy everything cos we want to.

In CA`s case it`s even worse because they ADVERTISED things that DID NOT appear in the final product and that`s why many people bought it. What part of the previous sentence do you not understand?

[karamazovmm]

I blame Heinz, he said it was just a club and I had no idea about the dancing girls.............., still the video he took of that night meant I had no choice but to agree to his wicked plot for me to purchase RTW2,

Mr Guderian I salute you for your scheming - how many others have fell victim

huh! I thought he only did that to me... I hope he sells the video the performance was fantastic as far as Im concerned

want = make the active decision to engage in
Not at all.
Addiction is real.

Humans are a lot like mice.
You don't blame the mouse for 'deciding' to act if those actions stemmed from neurological manipulation,
nicotine of course being the active agent.

Blaming the victim for tastes and tendency is the wrong approach as well.
Same as judging a game based on sales.
Whats most likely happening in this scenario are the after effects of the previous addiction
RTW, M2TW, NTW, S2 and their expansions added with marketing.

Besides that I love you Karamazovmm and I want you to stop smoking because I love you.
I want you to put the next fag down because of my love for you.

not blaming anyone, you just made a choice to buy the game, and people that bought got the game after the initial backlash are.. well... they knew what was coming

anyway, I have the impression that smoking wasn't a good example, but it was the first stupid law suit that I remembered

anyway those late 19th century psych approach is far gone, no one uses that damn russian anymore

Have you ever watched an advert of something you have NO interest in. Then suddenly found you want it even though you actually have no need for it?

Have you found yourself buying something then never ever using it? And even wondering why you bought it?

Do actually ever wonder why there`s a huge advertising industry and why some companies spend over 70% of their budget on an advert than the product?

There is a subconscous and advertisers work hard to get through to it, by colour, music, human facial manipulation and themes. Learn what makes each of us tick and you can sell even what we don`t want to us. It`s one reason why I watch very little TV these days.

You live in a simplified and naive world if you truly believe we buy everything cos we want to.

In CA`s case it`s even worse because they ADVERTISED things that DID NOT appear in the final product and that`s why many people bought it. What part of the previous sentence do you not understand?

Ah yes, you don't have the power to chose anymore because there are people that make shiny videos, colourful posters and nice posts

I have bought things that I don't need, mostly because I misled myself thinking that was needed. For example I bought a nice 42" TV some years ago. I don't watch TV.

I buy different kinds of food because I want, not because the box is colourful or that the market is having a nice poster of it. I buy because I like food of different kinds not because I need, I can survive with just some kinds and probably be healthier this way

I bought an iPod mini so that I could run more comfortably, doesn't mean that I needed it.

I could have bought a more expensive tablet, but I didn't, the ereader that I have is fine, since Im just going to read books.

its your problem, there is a very tight leash on what madmen can do, they don't deal with false adverts, if they do, its a millionaire making lawsuit

But then again you forgot the most important aspect that people have been studying right now, peer pressure

btw its not a naive world, just a world were people have responsibility. I take responsibility for my actions

[omzdog]

not blaming anyone, you just made a choice to buy the game, and people that bought got the game after the initial backlash are.. well... they knew what was coming

anyway, I have the impression that smoking wasn't a good example, but it was the first stupid law suit that I remembered

anyway those late 19th century psych approach is far gone, no one uses that damn russian anymore

Your posts confuse me.
I don't... I don't know anymore.

[General Maximus]

We must not forget, that SEGA itself is owned by that Sammy Corporation. I doubt that those Pachinko makers are pulling the strings behind this, though. Sure, they are arcade makers, but they never interfered in game development for their greed.

[karamazovmm]

Your posts confuse me.
I don't... I don't know anymore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_conditioning

thats what you meant by mice, its common knowledge that people don't know where it came from.

[alQamar]

How would you feel ? Bad.

How would you act ? Keep protecting them ? Keep silent ? Or say the truth ?

As a community manager he is honestly playing a role of a bad ass.

Actually I believe it must be very hard to shut up about things while loving the game for some of the CA staff. I don't think they can afford to revolt against their management decisions. Never bite the hand feeding you.

I would never like to change chairs with any of CA.

[omzdog]

No, classical conditioning is not what I was referring to.
Operant condition is your word as it requires modification of voluntary (operant) behavior,
while classical conditioning is the manipulation of reflex via previous external stimulus/i (Pavlov right, you ever been to his house?).

Since purchasing a game is not a reflexive motion,
operant condition, or the manipulation of tastes (in interactive entertainment and marketing divisions) is accurate.

Of course, I agree with you that this is 19 Century stuff,
doesn't mean it doesn't apply or at least describe the phenomenon of taking advantage of popular opinion and engineering the public mind.

Specifically, to tie it down to what you were talking about, each time you buy a cigarette and inhalte, nicotine does its job in your nervous system with or without your consent. Meaning you are biologically/neurologically submitting yourself to wasting money as the effects of nicotine are also its problems, hence addiction. Hence no matter how many cigs you smoke, you are never relaxed, yet you are always seeking to be relaxed with more smoking. Then you find out have have to use retirement money for a lung transplant and the tobacco industry gets to cruise the Bahamas since most of them don't smoke.

AFAIC, I don't complain whever I hear people suing tobacco industry.
Because those bastards enjoy playing dirty tricks.