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Thread: Creative Assembly Business Practice Discussion Thread (Rome II)

  1. #61
    AlyssaFaden's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Aaaaaaand now I've peeved again

    Did you just call the Paradox games "simple?"

  2. #62
    Petroniu's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Aaaaaaand now I've peeved again

    Quote Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
    Rewards are given to good games. It only makes sense. Just because Rome 2 is not the game TWC wants, does not mean Rome 2 is not the game other people want. It is, admittedly buggy, but its like a Bethedesa title - it's buggy because the game is HUGE. The bigger the game, and the more complex it is, the more bug prone it is. I can't think of any grand strategy games that are even on the same scope and scale of Total War - not even Paradox titles, given they are huge, but relatively simple.
    I can get your point, but your arguments are deplorable.
    Last edited by Radzeer; October 18, 2013 at 06:58 PM. Reason: language adjustment
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  3. #63
    [N2]Kami's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Aaaaaaand now I've peeved again

    Did somebody just call Paradox game SIMPLE? I can beat a TW game in hardest setting but can't play a Paradox game because of its complexity.

  4. #64

    Default Re: Aaaaaaand now I've peeved again

    Quote Originally Posted by Petroniu View Post
    I can get your point, but your arguments are deplorable.
    His arguments are fine. When he says that Paradox games are simple its not meant as by features or complexity of the gameplay, but by the sheer amount of code it takes to make Rome 2 work compared to a paradox game. While I do love Paradox game, the term "Spreadsheet game" fits them very well, they're basically just spreadsheets like; You do X action and Value Y is changed by +2" Not a lot of errors can occur from this, Rome 2 is far more complex below the hood.
    Last edited by Radzeer; October 18, 2013 at 06:59 PM. Reason: language adjustment

  5. #65

    Default Re: Aaaaaaand now I've peeved again

    Quote Originally Posted by wulfgar610 View Post
    Sega is the parent company and the publisher,. marketing is its job. They consult with agents in CA about marketing.

    I picked up a game for $12 from EB early in the year,. Anno 1404, quite good.
    In the Tim Heaton interview he claims creative assembly is so independent they run marketing internally at the studio. I don't know where the myth that it's all a big sega conspiracy comes from.

    edit: just for clarification I'm sure what OP is talking about is a publisher thing, but it is a little comical they're reduced to using e3 awards to sell the product like that is any judgement on the final game. Too bad they can't use all those bloated reviews they paid good development money on.
    Last edited by Rasic; October 18, 2013 at 11:26 AM.

  6. #66
    Holger Danske's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Aaaaaaand now I've peeved again

    Quote Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
    Rewards are given to good games. It only makes sense. Just because Rome 2 is not the game TWC wants, does not mean Rome 2 is not the game other people want. It is, admittedly buggy, but its like a Bethedesa title - it's buggy because the game is HUGE. The bigger the game, and the more complex it is, the more bug prone it is. I can't think of any grand strategy games that are even on the same scope and scale of Total War - not even Paradox titles, given they are huge, but relatively simple.
    TW's scale doesn't even come close to that of Paradox. You'd know that if you had played any of their grand strategy games (HOI3, fx). Also any product is prone to defects, epsecially if the designers are careless/lazy, so dont try to excuse CA's failure by claiming they had too complex features, because by all accounts it's clear that Rome II is a backstep in innovation - not that I expect you have any clue what that really means.

  7. #67
    Anna_Gein's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Aaaaaaand now I've peeved again

    Quote Originally Posted by wulfgar610 View Post
    Sega is the parent company and the publisher,. marketing is its job. They consult with agents in CA about marketing.
    Your memory is selective, isn't it ?

    Let's go for a shameless copy of my reply to the same statement formulated by you in a different thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anna_Gein View Post
    Not really. From the now infamous Gamasutra interview of Tim Heaton, studio director of CA :

    Obviously, Total War is a very established franchise. So that's as smooth sailing as you could hope for, I guess, in the sense that you know it's going to get the resources and the audience, right? How do you work with Sega as your publisher, as an internal studio?
    TH: I think we're really independent. Before Sega bought CA, it was a very independent-minded studio, and since we got bought, we've maintained that kind of attitude -- to the point that we run the marketing for Total War from inside the studio. It's something that normally a publisher will completely control. Recently, we've said we want to be really specialist on our marketing, and have really focused people, and so Sega has allowed us to build a team around that.

    So it's good; they're a good dad to have, because they provide support where we need it. They tend to be watching the market for us, to steer us into the right direction that they think we should be going. And then infrastructure stuff, like Q&A and etcetera is great, just to have them as a big structure there. But certainly for Total War, I feel like CA totally guided that franchise; we're the kings of that franchise.
    I advice everyone to read the whole interview.
    Edit : I could not say it better Rasic. Despite Tim Heaton affirmation I believe it is the exact opposite and SEGA allows CA to do most of the marketing work for the simple reason that CA have no independence toward SEGA. Just look at the man, freshly recruited from EA and already at the head of CA. There no upper post than studio director so nobody from CA could had recruited him. The decision could only come from SEGA.

  8. #68
    Ultra123's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Aaaaaaand now I've peeved again

    Quote Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
    Rewards are given to good games. It only makes sense. Just because Rome 2 is not the game TWC wants, does not mean Rome 2 is not the game other people want. It is, admittedly buggy, but its like a Bethedesa title - it's buggy because the game is HUGE. The bigger the game, and the more complex it is, the more bug prone it is. I can't think of any grand strategy games that are even on the same scope and scale of Total War - not even Paradox titles, given they are huge, but relatively simple.
    And CA's pet lapdog comes yapping on the forums again, i have been forced to post this because im sick of the silly comments you have been leaving here. Who on earth put the word 'paradox' and 'simple' in the same sentence? Point aside TWR2 is beyong bugs, its gameplay design is flawed due a company that is stuck with metacritic loving managers.

    Paradox games are just as huge as TW games, just because you dont get the flashy graphics when you fight a battle doesnt mean less effort has been put into the game, or is it any smaller in scope.

    Your posts are becoming tedious with their repetiviveness and your defence of CA is clearly flawed. Please revise your opinions, play Rome total war 1 with mods and finally have that eureka moment when you realise those mods is what TWR2 should have been with updated graphics.

  9. #69

    Default Re: Aaaaaaand now I've peeved again

    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra123 View Post
    And CA's pet lapdog comes yapping on the forums again, i have been forced to post this because im sick of the silly comments you have been leaving here. Who on earth put the word 'paradox' and 'simple' in the same sentence? Point aside TWR2 is beyong bugs, its gameplay design is flawed due a company that is stuck with metacritic loving managers.

    Paradox games are just as huge as TW games, just because you dont get the flashy graphics when you fight a battle doesnt mean less effort has been put into the game, or is it any smaller in scope.

    Your posts are becoming tedious with their repetiviveness and your defence of CA is clearly flawed. Please revise your opinions, play Rome total war 1 with mods and finally have that eureka moment when you realise those mods is what TWR2 should have been with updated graphics.
    You people get worked up from the funniest things. CA is not going to be the developer you want. Kickstart a TW clone, because they will never completely agree with how the mods play TW out.

  10. #70
    Ultra123's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Aaaaaaand now I've peeved again

    I agree with you david - and thats the point. CA wil not listen to its customer base, a large part of their previous games sold soley on the merits of RS2 SPQR TATW SS and many more, surely they should clock on theres obviously SOMETHING they are doing right that CA could be missing?

  11. #71

    Default Re: Aaaaaaand now I've peeved again

    Quote Originally Posted by Holger Danske View Post
    TW's scale doesn't even come close to that of Paradox. You'd know that if you had played any of their grand strategy games (HOI3, fx). Also any product is prone to defects, epsecially if the designers are careless/lazy, so dont try to excuse CA's failure by claiming they had too complex features, because by all accounts it's clear that Rome II is a backstep in innovation - not that I expect you have any clue what that really means.
    Paradox's scale is entirely different. For one, Paradox is - as mentioned - basically a spreadsheet simulator. The game works on doing 'x' makes 'y' happen. In fact, Paradox is pretty easy to mod, even I can do it, given you just change some 0's to 1's to enable some disabled features (i.e. allowing females to lead armies), or to make things more expensive/better, you just change some numbers.

    Meanwhile Total War is not a 'do x and y happens', there are far more complex variables involved. Just in battles alone, the engine needs to first track every single unit - every single unit has its own stats, so your unit of 120 men is 120 separate things the game is tracking. All 120 men also have their own pathfinding programming to run through. Then when this 120 man unit engages another unit in battle, the game has to compare the stats of which of the 120 men are actually engaging the enemy, and make sure their pathfinding plays nice - and if they die, make sure the un-dead ones move forward and look at their stats.

    And that's just looking at 120 men. When you consider you can have over 10,000 units on the map, that is an insane number of variables and statistics the game has to track. The battles alone are far more technically complex then a Paradox title, where the battles are basically: "The one with more numbers wins." 19000 troops against 20000? The 20000 will probably win. The calculations for battles in a Paradox game are significantly less complex.

  12. #72
    kikokyle's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Aaaaaaand now I've peeved again

    Yet more Total War "fans" complaining about tiny things in the game and blowing them way out of proportion to make the game seem worse. It's like you guys wanted to, and enjoy, complaining.
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  13. #73
    big_feef's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Aaaaaaand now I've peeved again

    Quote Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
    Paradox's scale is entirely different. For one, Paradox is - as mentioned - basically a spreadsheet simulator. The game works on doing 'x' makes 'y' happen. In fact, Paradox is pretty easy to mod, even I can do it, given you just change some 0's to 1's to enable some disabled features (i.e. allowing females to lead armies), or to make things more expensive/better, you just change some numbers.

    Meanwhile Total War is not a 'do x and y happens', there are far more complex variables involved. Just in battles alone, the engine needs to first track every single unit - every single unit has its own stats, so your unit of 120 men is 120 separate things the game is tracking. All 120 men also have their own pathfinding programming to run through. Then when this 120 man unit engages another unit in battle, the game has to compare the stats of which of the 120 men are actually engaging the enemy, and make sure their pathfinding plays nice - and if they die, make sure the un-dead ones move forward and look at their stats.

    And that's just looking at 120 men. When you consider you can have over 10,000 units on the map, that is an insane number of variables and statistics the game has to track. The battles alone are far more technically complex then a Paradox title, where the battles are basically: "The one with more numbers wins." 19000 troops against 20000? The 20000 will probably win. The calculations for battles in a Paradox game are significantly less complex.
    You are so very wrong it makes me wonder if you have, in fact, played and modded Paradox grand strategy games much. Their games are not a "'x' makes 'y' happen" "spreadsheet simulator"; and your basis for believing that it is, because it's "pretty easy to mod" has absolutely nothing to do with it. Their games have a different focus; which is grand strategy, hence their genre. Their battles are simplified because it is not their focus. And even their simplified battles aren't "19000 troops against 20000? The 20000 will probably win." situation. Their combat simulator takes into account unit types, faction and unit technology, leader skills and traits, and a myriad of other factors... Just because it doesn't show you specific units battling it out on the battlefield doesn't make it simple; and in fact, that assumption is far from the truth.

    I've been modding and playing Paradox games for years, ever since I got the gem that was Hearts of Iron 2. Modding these games, you'll find that their AI programming, while not perfect, is light years beyond any that CA has ever deigned to produce for any Total War game; period. That fact that you can easily mod their games isn't because the games are 'simple'; but simply because Paradox from the beginning has made a commitment to making their games easily moddable by anyone without needing specialized tools because the game data is locked away behind encryption.

    Total War games have never been strategically complex games; their focus is on battles, not civilization building. I've played Total War games since the original Medieval; and the best the default CA AI has managed to be is inept; even though the CAI for the much simpler Medieval campaign could be surprisingly brutal at times. But oh were the battles fun to play. Even Rome 2 battles, with it's braindead AI, can be a thing of beauty at times. In the end, comparing Paradox and Total War games is like comparing fruits and vegetables: they're similar but fundamentally different.
    "The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools" - Thucydides



  14. #74

    Default Re: Aaaaaaand now I've peeved again

    Quote Originally Posted by big_feef View Post
    You are so very wrong it makes me wonder if you have, in fact, played and modded Paradox grand strategy games much. Their games are not a "'x' makes 'y' happen" "spreadsheet simulator"; and your basis for believing that it is, because it's "pretty easy to mod" has absolutely nothing to do with it. Their games have a different focus; which is grand strategy, hence their genre. Their battles are simplified because it is not their focus. And even their simplified battles aren't "19000 troops against 20000? The 20000 will probably win." situation. Their combat simulator takes into account unit types, faction and unit technology, leader skills and traits, and a myriad of other factors... Just because it doesn't show you specific units battling it out on the battlefield doesn't make it simple; and in fact, that assumption is far from the truth.

    I've been modding and playing Paradox games for years, ever since I got the gem that was Hearts of Iron 2. Modding these games, you'll find that their AI programming, while not perfect, is light years beyond any that CA has ever deigned to produce for any Total War game; period. That fact that you can easily mod their games isn't because the games are 'simple'; but simply because Paradox from the beginning has made a commitment to making their games easily moddable by anyone without needing specialized tools because the game data is locked away behind encryption.

    Total War games have never been strategically complex games; their focus is on battles, not civilization building. I've played Total War games since the original Medieval; and the best the default CA AI has managed to be is inept; even though the CAI for the much simpler Medieval campaign could be surprisingly brutal at times. But oh were the battles fun to play. Even Rome 2 battles, with it's braindead AI, can be a thing of beauty at times. In the end, comparing Paradox and Total War games is like comparing fruits and vegetables: they're similar but fundamentally different.
    It was not my intention to compare the games on equal footing - I was merely comparing their coding. Total War's coding is significantly more complex then a Paradox titles. I have played a few hundred hours of CK2, and in my experience, the larger army almost always wins. The exception being if the smaller army has a significant number of heavy cavalry - but anyone who has played CK2 knows all about the "Muslim Doomstacks" which ensure the Crusades never succeed due to the 38k roving army that stamps out everything the Crusaders can muster.

    The two games have very big differences and focuses yes, but Total War is just technically and coding-wise, far more complex. The more complex the code is, the more prone it is to bugs. Just the way it is.

  15. #75
    big_feef's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Aaaaaaand now I've peeved again

    Quote Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
    It was not my intention to compare the games on equal footing - I was merely comparing their coding. Total War's coding is significantly more complex then a Paradox titles. I have played a few hundred hours of CK2, and in my experience, the larger army almost always wins. The exception being if the smaller army has a significant number of heavy cavalry - but anyone who has played CK2 knows all about the "Muslim Doomstacks" which ensure the Crusades never succeed due to the 38k roving army that stamps out everything the Crusaders can muster.

    The two games have very big differences and focuses yes, but Total War is just technically and coding-wise, far more complex. The more complex the code is, the more prone it is to bugs. Just the way it is.
    Not it is not. Stop trying to make that assumption; it shows you're obviously not a programmer. Just because a game has flashier lights doesn't automatically give it 'significantly more complex' coding. I too have played over 600 hours of CK2, the game you're using as an example, and I've modded the hell out of it too. Having a larger army does not in any way guarantee a victory. Those 30k+ doomstacks you're referring to are easily destroyed after a few decades with tech upgrades from Western powers; because in CK2, as in history, the Muslims of that era were more technologically advanced than the Westerners. You have to play catch up to have any chance of taking down one of the biggest empires in the game at that time. You are trying to use the battles from a game that is not focused on battles to make your point; while ignoring the other far more complex areas of the game such as the dynasty system, provincial system, character management... you know, the things that make a game like CK2 a grand strategy game.

    And referrencing a comment from your previous post about why you think Total War games have more complex coding: pathfinding is one of the simpler elements to program; much simpler than say, AI programming. I don't have access to CA's code; but I can tell you that they're not programming pathfinding for 120 men. They're programming pathfinding for the unit; those 120 men are linked to that unit and follow where the unit's reference goes. At the most, with Rome 2, pathfinding is working on 80 units; not 80x120. Doing it the way you're suggesting isn't just inefficient, it's downright ridiculous to waste resources that way; something I don't CA (or any other game company in their right mind) would do.

    Your assumptions are false and you should probably take some programming lessons before making broad claims like you've been doing.
    "The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools" - Thucydides



  16. #76
    priam11's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Aaaaaaand now I've peeved again

    I love how people go bonkers about a game still be marketed after release (shocking I know) in a sub forum that is about that very same game. Did anyone actually think that just because you are unhappy with the release, that they actually would stop marketing that game? Really?
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  17. #77

    Default Re: Aaaaaaand now I've peeved again

    I like how people are saying Paradox games aren't a spreadsheet game because reasons. You get to know the end result of most actions in static numbers before you even act on them. Oh, you want to break that King's title? That means all these people won't like you. They aren't bad games, I actually like what I have played and watched of them, but they are a much "simpler" game in terms of cause and effect.

  18. #78
    Humble Warrior's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Aaaaaaand now I've peeved again

    Quote Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
    Rewards are given to good games. It only makes sense. Just because Rome 2 is not the game TWC wants, does not mean Rome 2 is not the game other people want. It is, admittedly buggy, but its like a Bethedesa title - it's buggy because the game is HUGE. The bigger the game, and the more complex it is, the more bug prone it is. I can't think of any grand strategy games that are even on the same scope and scale of Total War - not even Paradox titles, given they are huge, but relatively simple.
    Boy are you naive. You`re gonna get a shock later in life.

    Ever heard of corruption? One hand greasing the palm of the other? No, that only happens in other places, right?

    And you show your sheer ignorance by calling Paradox games `simple`.

  19. #79

    Default Re: Aaaaaaand now I've peeved again

    Well I'll give paradox one credit at least they release games that work unlike CA.

  20. #80
    Aeneas Veneratio's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Aaaaaaand now I've peeved again

    On the whole TW versus Paradox, at the very least TW welcomes newcomers (with adequate tutorials), while Paradox just takes a dump on the newcomers (with their dismal tutorials). CKII? Worst "job" ever!
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