Bioware characters

[Knight of Heaven]

I'm having trouble with this. Also, whatever I called Ashley, kaidan, Jacob or James, I never had to resort to "the soldier", "the technician" like I had to with Gabby, the doc, and adams. Ashley is the racist freak, Kaidan is like a dog, man's best friend, but turned into a human, Jacob works out and stays fit, and James is a college frat-guy that joined the army. I'm being comical here, but I have to say there's a big gap between some of the minor crew on the ship, and these guys. And none of your squad can only be summed up by his profession.

Thats not what i meant at all ( i might have not phrase it correctly due to layziness), i meant they arent very unique characters. Its not their professions or roles, its that they are just normal characters in comparison, to garrus, Mordin, tali, wrex, EDI, even joker etc. they are just normal, they do, and standfor normal stuff. Wich is a ok btw, but is a type character all the same.
That is what i mean.

Regarding Liara, I guess it's up to anyone. Personally, I didn't pay much attention to her and I didn't feel like she was such a vital person to my Shepard. You felt different. It's all a matter of taste.

No it isnt a matter of taste, it is a matter of fact, there is more content and development pandering to Liara character then any other character. You can see that by the writting alone. When i say this, isnt because Liara is my favorite character ( it isnt) im saying it because cleary its the favorite of the game, and the writters.
Consider this:
- Shepard and Liara mind connection in ME1 with the Embrace enternity stuff it was crucial for the main plot, without her there was no sucess, in finding Ilos and understanding the prothean beacon, not only that it sugest a special, intimate relation, by being interconnected that way, whenever you like it or not, whenever you go for romance or not, and she is cleary a bad ass nerd type of character. More nerd and cute in Me1 then "bad ass" sugesting a special place in the mindset of the writers.
- In ME2 while she isnt your companion, she is very present in the game, much more then Kaiden, or Ashley, hell more present then other current ME2 companions ( more present then jacob,or zaeed, or Kasumi imo) and that alone says alot ( more present to the main story as well, being crucial in saving shepard body). But not only that There is a transition to a more "rutheless" and cold hearted (threatens to flay people with her mind!, facing an Asari spectre etc) bad ass character saving shepard body from the shadow broker who was working for the collectors and giving it to cerebus instead, taking on and becoming the new shadow broker all that, there is more detail in her character in a dlc, and in game then there is in some other companion characters on the normandy. She ends up more influencial then most from a story standpoint, if she wasnt already in Me1.
- And lets not talk ME3 because its even more obvious in how Liara is Writers favorite, from the main plot, finding the crucible plans to the litle stuff like reuniting to her father in Apollo cafe. And if you romance her its even more evident this special detail given to Liara/shepard dynamic. The last scene alone on earth, is more detailed and thought out then anyother character romance arch.
And lastly the usual role of liara on the grand scheme of story telling, making time capsules, defining shepard, being key element in the story that has been told, its one of those characters, probably the only one that cant never die. ( all others can die in the course of the 3 games safe for EDI/Joker wich are also writers favorite, not on the same level but still have a special place)
Also there is a inconditional love of liara for shepard while you are romantic involved or not that is very implied in writing.
If you happen to romance her trough all ME games, its very obvious that Liara is meant to be the canon Romantic person for shepard, from the writing standpoint at least.
The mere fact that any other character i think of, can die and disapear from the game, in the course of all ME games, and not her, tells volumes of Liara character.

She's practically the avatar of the writers in the same sense that the PC is the avatar of the player

This is what i mean, i couldnt put it better myself. She is cleary an Avatar of the writters, and the events being told in the ME series.

[Razvus]

The mere fact that any other character i think of, can die and disapear from the game, in the course of all ME games, and not her, tells volumes of Liara character.

I guess I never noticed this before. I just found her annoying so I haven't given her much importance. The sudden change in her personality from ME2 onward was not to my liking either. She was a whole new other character, and I didn't even get to see the changes because it all happened in a comic book.

[Gaidin]

I guess I never noticed this before. I just found her annoying so I haven't given her much importance. The sudden change in her personality from ME2 onward was not to my liking either. She was a whole new other character, and I didn't even get to see the changes because it all happened in a comic book.

LoL, that was actually legit writing. You go head to head with the Shadow Broker for a few years and see if you don't change.

[Razvus]

Well I was playing a game, ME1, and then I played the second one and I'm suppose to know of this whole battle that took place in some corner of a comic strip. I don't care that it's legit writing, I was taken out of action and now all of a sudden (for me) everyone was some huge baggage accumulated. prime character development here. It's like releasing a movie, and then making a sequel that takes place 20 years later. Half of the characters are dead, the rest went through divorce and hell and I'm suppose to care.

[Knight of Heaven]

I guess I never noticed this before. I just found her annoying so I haven't given her much importance. The sudden change in her personality from ME2 onward was not to my liking either. She was a whole new other character, and I didn't even get to see the changes because it all happened in a comic book.

To be honest you dont even need to read the comic book. I didnt. Its all there in the DLC. She tells her backstory, between Cerebus, The Shadow Broker, Feron betray her, and then his change of heart.

Liara can be a bit anoying, but then again can do so other characters at times, and yes i didnt like her hardned personality transformation either, but makes sense. She helps kill her own mother in Noveria for once, then ends up tangled with the Shadow broker, because of Shepard body, besides i dint think this transformation is very extreme anyway. She is an Asari after all, they all, or most of them are quite capable.

Of course if you didnt played the DLC. Liara isnt as prevelant in ME2, but still somewhat present.
I mean just take notice of the soundtrack that is playing when Shepard and liara are together... and what it does sugest. And its equaly emotive in ME3.

[Razvus]

Yes, I played the Dlc's. I know she tells you the story herself, but it's still a story, and I wasn't there to be a part of it. I know I'm starting to beat a dead horse here, but for me it's not the same. It's one thing to be a part of an adventure and another to be told about what happened. Her change makes sense? yea, I know it does. But for me she's a new character anyway. When you meet her she's all busy and tells you she had to find a way to survive. Well... I'm sorry I died back there... I'll just run along so you can take that call. I'll continue saving the galaxy after being brought back from the dead.

Same thing with Ashley.Kaidan. I'm sorry I died people! Garrus is all butch on mercenaries, but at least he's ok after a bullet in the head. At least Tali is more or less the same. Why did I waste time getting to know these people in ME1 if they're almost all of them changed in ME2? And not all of them had a comic strip to explain their adventures. At least give me the option to punch some of these characters.

[Knight of Heaven]

You like or dislike what you want. That isnt the point.
The whole point being without a doubt Liara is a very important, prevalent character story wise she is a leading character in the story. Not miranda. whataver you like it or not.

if they're almost all of them changed in ME2?

No they didnt.
When you look at it, they dont realy change. Garrus was an hard ass in ME1, when he wanted to kill that Salarian doctor for instance, despense justice on his own acord, because he was sick of the red tape in C sec. Him going against crime mercs, and becoming a vigilante, seems right about his alley.

About kaidan and Ashley, they werent mad at you because you died. They were mad, or rather suspicious because you were with cerberus, and Cerberus brought you back to life. How is that changing their personalities? its perfectly reasonable. For all they cared you couldnt even be the real shepard, you could be clone or something, ( and they would be correct in be suspicious after playing the citadel dlc, there was a clone.) they were suspicious because they saw the real shepard die, and knew how cerberus was like.
Its a a perfectly reasonable reaction in their perspective. They didnt changed at all.
You just didnt get why they were mad. Its not because shepard died.

And lets face it liara didnt changed that much. Certainely much more rough arround the edges, but deep down, she is still the nerdy geek prothean doctor.
Im wondering why people dont associate her being capable of violence, when in ME1 if she was with you she would have killed alot of people as well.
It isnt just as noticable i guess.
Funny you mentioning Tali, because thats the thing i dont get her, why she was so trusting of shepard and cerberus in freedoms progress. I understand she was in a tuff situation, but still, it came to easy imo.

[Razvus]

We're still on the Miranda part? i haven't mentioned her for a while and you're still on about it. I know she's not a main character, and I pledge my soul to Liara's ultimate importance in this story. But Miranda's character is similar to Bastila and Morrigan. And those we're main characters. But Miranda isn't one, I know. But she was just built as one. That's all. I know Liara is a god, I know.

No, Garrus is different. I talked about him in the first post of this thread. In ME1 he was a hardass, but the game fools you into thinking you can be his mentor. And I specifically told him to be nice, take it easy and enlist in the spectres. What does he do? He goes on a killing spree. Way to go buddy. Also, I imagine he wasn't cracking jokes with his crew as the Archangel, but once you show up, he's the new comedian on the ship. Old buddies, yea, but back in ME1 he couldn't catch a joke if it flew right in front of him. he's different. he was made into Shepard's buddy, and in ME1 he was actually a character who had a backbone.

...Obviously I know ashley doesn't hate me because I died. I'm not that thick. But the reason for her suspicion (that lasts for TWO GAMES) is pretty shallow. You barely talk 2 mins with her/him and then that's it. Everything could be talked over so easily... I mean hey, Joker thinks I'm ok, Garrus, Tali, the doc, the crew, how about you wake up, eh? Suspicion is one thing, but Ashley brings it to a whole new level. A dumb level. I just saved her ass and she reacts like I killed a puppy.

Tali trusts you, but so does Garrus right from the start. They both trust you with a gun around them in a tough situation. And what's not to trust? Apart from the Citadel DLC, I haven't seen a single case of a mad clone running around or a person being mind-controlled and not look like a zombie. Where does this suspicion come from? Aria scans you because anyone can wear a face, but apparently a simple scan can clear that up. Why aren't more people scanning you to be done with the suspicion? Cerberus develops mind-controlling abilities barely in ME3, and it makes the soldiers look like ghosts. So I think Miranda was talking out of her ass when she mentioned the chip she wanted in your brain. It's all very sketchy and very dumb.

[Gaidin]

Tali trusts you, but so does Garrus right from the start. They both trust you with a gun around them in a tough situation. And what's not to trust? Apart from the Citadel DLC, I haven't seen a single case of a mad clone running around or a person being mind-controlled and not look like a zombie. Where does this suspicion come from? Aria scans you because anyone can wear a face, but apparently a simple scan can clear that up. Why aren't more people scanning you to be done with the suspicion? Cerberus develops mind-controlling abilities barely in ME3, and it makes the soldiers look like ghosts. So I think Miranda was talking out of her ass when she mentioned the chip she wanted in your brain. It's all very sketchy and very dumb.

well there's a slight difference(read: holy helluva lot) between a chip and Reaper programming in concept.

[Razvus]

Exactly, there's no technology to control someone's mind in ME2. Thanks for proving my point.

[Gaidin]

Exactly, there's no technology to control someone's mind in ME2. Thanks for proving my point.

Well theoretically you can do something crazy with a damn chip in sci fi. The nerve binary 'on/off' connection is there if an author wants to go nuts. And Mass Effect had made no hint one way or another past the sheer rists of surgery, and they were already pulling off what they were pulling off at that lab. So who knows what else they could've done. But the Reaper music corruption is on a totally different level altogether is the point I'm making. Which is what you missed when you chose to read, and yet not read my post at the same time. Thanks for managing to pull that paradox off.

[Razvus]

Right. I'm saying everyone's suspicion regarding your sanity in ME2 is forced. I know it's a sci fi and practically everything "magical" can happen, but the fact is we're not even given a hint of such a technology existing at that point. It was a forced conflict between Shepard and the Citadel. Fact is, if those people claimed they know Shepard in ME1, they should know better than to judge first and ask questions later (ME3). I saved the galaxy, just because I was revived by a terrorist organization doesn't mean I'm brainwashed.

My point is, some of these characters would've been far more enjoyable if not for these "hoops" that they're forced to jump through, and then calling it character development. If someone asked you, before ME2 was released, what would Ashley's reaction be to this scenario of you getting killed and revived by Cerberus, what would've been your answer? Keep in mind she was a soldier passed over for promotion constantly, based on her family, that she lost her squad and you saved her. Hell, you can even romance her. It makes no sense.

[Mangalore]

.... It's all very sketchy and very dumb.

Well, that sums up what ME2 did to the franchise. The problem really is the entire game and its plot was done for effect so essentially everything any of the characters say in this game is of questionable value and usually helps to mess up a coherent picture of what is possible because hey, whatever the writers thought is cool at the time. ME1 and ME3 certainly had that as well, but at least a plot was making the rules, in ME2 the main plot is just a vague inconsequential story in the background to about a dozen character stories.

In essence all characters are hypercharged and stripped off any nuances.
I always thought Tali was just an outstanding engineer on her pilgrimage... nope, she is now a special task force commander.
I always thought Liara is just that geeky science gal ... nope, she is now the badass information broker because science is boring!
Garrus was a policeman, nope he is now BATMAN!
And, Shepard is special and God now, if the power fantasy of ME1 was too subtle for you.

To ME's credit it doesn't wreck all characters but it really wastes a lot of their potential and the same way they crank the coolness factor up it also degrades the cleverness factor by alot.

I know this is a rant again, but the trouble is that ME2 throw a bad marketings stunt that created an inconsequential mess to the triology arc which kind of causes all kinds of problems like this.

[Wulfburk]

Garrus as Batman lol, agreed though.


One of the reasons ME1 is my favorite of them all, felt less gung-ho overall.

[Inhuman One]

Where still real people yes.. thats how many sitcoms start out as well, before they turn into stereotypes that you can't relate to anymore, and the situations get increasingly rediculous

I gues that makes mass effect the new FRIENDS. Heh, maybe someone should make a sitcom opening of mass effect in friends style, with the most prominent companions.

[Stavroforos]

Well, that sums up what ME2 did to the franchise. The problem really is the entire game and its plot was done for effect so essentially everything any of the characters say in this game is of questionable value and usually helps to mess up a coherent picture of what is possible because hey, whatever the writers thought is cool at the time. ME1 and ME3 certainly had that as well, but at least a plot was making the rules, in ME2 the main plot is just a vague inconsequential story in the background to about a dozen character stories.

In essence all characters are hypercharged and stripped off any nuances.
I always thought Tali was just an outstanding engineer on her pilgrimage... nope, she is now a special task force commander.
I always thought Liara is just that geeky science gal ... nope, she is now the badass information broker because science is boring!
Garrus was a policeman, nope he is now BATMAN!
And, Shepard is special and God now, if the power fantasy of ME1 was too subtle for you.

To ME's credit it doesn't wreck all characters but it really wastes a lot of their potential and the same way they crank the coolness factor up it also degrades the cleverness factor by alot.

I know this is a rant again, but the trouble is that ME2 throw a bad marketings stunt that created an inconsequential mess to the triology arc which kind of causes all kinds of problems like this.

I've always thought that ME2 is the worse of the trilogy.

[Razvus]

Where still real people yes.. thats how many sitcoms start out as well, before they turn into stereotypes that you can't relate to anymore, and the situations get increasingly rediculous

I gues that makes mass effect the new FRIENDS. Heh, maybe someone should make a sitcom opening of mass effect in friends style, with the most prominent companions.

the characters in friends get changed a lot?

[Wulfburk]

lol now someone has got to make a Mass Effect intro parody of the friends intro, with their theme song

Youtube failed me now, didnt find any!

[Gaidin]

Well, that sums up what ME2 did to the franchise. The problem really is the entire game and its plot was done for effect so essentially everything any of the characters say in this game is of questionable value and usually helps to mess up a coherent picture of what is possible because hey, whatever the writers thought is cool at the time. ME1 and ME3 certainly had that as well, but at least a plot was making the rules, in ME2 the main plot is just a vague inconsequential story in the background to about a dozen character stories.

In essence all characters are hypercharged and stripped off any nuances.
I always thought Tali was just an outstanding engineer on her pilgrimage... nope, she is now a special task force commander.
I always thought Liara is just that geeky science gal ... nope, she is now the badass information broker because science is boring!
Garrus was a policeman, nope he is now BATMAN!
And, Shepard is special and God now, if the power fantasy of ME1 was too subtle for you.

To ME's credit it doesn't wreck all characters but it really wastes a lot of their potential and the same way they crank the coolness factor up it also degrades the cleverness factor by alot.

I know this is a rant again, but the trouble is that ME2 throw a bad marketings stunt that created an inconsequential mess to the triology arc which kind of causes all kinds of problems like this.

Well all things being equal, they don't even bother with the formality with Shephard. No special forces phase but for one mission before they turn him into the BAMF of the UNIVERSE. From the start he's just the BAMF of the UNIVERSE. If they want to turn a few other characters into some fun roles as the galaxy is going to hell, they can have some fun after what they did with Shephard. I'm having fun all the while.

[Knight of Heaven]

And, Shepard is special and God now, if the power fantasy of ME1 was too subtle for you.

I dont get this... since when Shepard is god now, or super powerfull?

If anything else he is a celebrity, galatic hero, for his doings in ME1 ( ironicaly), and unique individual, as he was in ME1, due to the prothean cypher, and mostly because he was the only being alive that was able to see the warning, and without a doubt knowing that the reapers will come eventualy. And there is the small matter of being picked to be first human spectre... I realy dont get what is the diference in writting concept to other ME games.
There isnt one.
He is special, naturaly he is the hero. does that makes him god? no.
You do know Shepard can die in ME2 last mission, and still finish the mission and game dont you?

I understand ME1 is of course the best written game overal, but lets not paint worse, or exagerate the issue on ME2.
The characters changed, but didnt changed that much , to warrant such a nitpick for christ sake, for once their development, and progression, seems very logical.
Garrus batman? He was already a Batman wannabie in ME1 ( think what he did in Dr.Michel office, with the Fist thugs, i bet you all dont even remember), hell if anything in ME2 he did exactly the same thing in ME1, he quits C-Sec to join a group of soldiers to take out injustice in omega, because the usual channels didnt work, same reason he joined shepard to fight saren, he wasnt C-sec anymore right there, and then same reason he join shepard to fight the collectors, there is no big change at all, for all the nuances ME1 gets, im astonished you all failed to get it.

Also if anything ME1 characters arent as good as you all talk about for once they all join shepard too easly, Wrex, and even Garrus, their reasons seem as far fetched, and too fast, ( Wrex i have no ideia why he joined SR1 for instance, there isnt a realy strong reason, besides he being there, and wanting to kick some saren ass he initialy join you to get to fist, nothing more.... that goes for good writing)

In ME2 all of this characters at least had good reasons, and were more complex in their motivations.
Tali a Elite soldier in ME2, are guys doing this on porpuse? to see things that arent there, or never were there? She was working for her father gathering geth parts, she was working as tech enginneer, she wasnt a military officer, or leader at all, obvious she had premise on scientific, technical stuff, not to mention she was the admiral daughter, but she wasnt in charge of the quarian marines, she had her mission, the marines had the mission to protect her in this missions. In Me1 tali says she is in her pilgramage, but she says she is an admiral daughter, and that she has responsabilities, what we see in later games is just an extension of that, progression, and development, it actualy is very logical and reasonable. ( She wasnt just an enginneer, she never was) Like Wrex wasnt just a random Krogan, he never was, anyone who played ME1 and talked with this characters, for a while, would get that.

Garrus being a buddy in ME2 makes perfect sense considering what they went trough in ME1, again it seems logical, it screems progression and development. This isnt a new person you meet, like you do in ME1, its a person that went to hell and back with you during ME1 against Saren and the geth.
Its only natural Shepard are in such terms with garrus or Wrex. It fits their personalities quite nicely.

Liara changed yes, but lets not ignore that wasnt a huge change or without cause, as the writing is concerned at very least.
Geeky science gal wich was matriach benezia daughter btw, that had powerfull biotics, and joined a military vessel, and goes on missions with N7, spectre and aliance elite soldiers to fight geth, and god knows what else in dangerous planets... yeah very harmless and incapable... also helps to kill her mother, in a way... so yeah...
Alot of people should play again ME1 again and get rid of their tinted coloured glasses.
Im currently doing it now to be honest, and its faults are even more glaring, on character characterization and development.
There is no doubt a great improvement in ME2 in this particular issue.

The Highlight of ME1, was the presentation of the universe, enviroment, and how they give us the main plot issues, wich was intriguing to say the least, but it was doomed ,as soon the mystery of the reapers, were to be explored in future titles that much was obvious in ME1, no matter how you look at it.
As soon you understand what the reapers are doing, the mystery goes, and honestly it isnt as good as comes across in ME1, due to lack of mystery.
Lastly i think you are all being influenced by the fact that ME2 main plot is a deviation of the main theme plot of the series, and naturaly not as good, so you can use that to pick on character writing.
Yet ME2 has a more satisfying ending then ME3, and a more complex fun ending then ME1.

Alot of people see EA, and naturaly assume it is automaticaly worse ( cant blame them), while i think it isnt a clear black and white issue in this series to be honest. ME1 was good but not as good as alot of people paint it. Specialy on character writing.

We're still on the Miranda part?

It was the original argument, so yeah. It served to prove that particular point, thats why i brought out Liara.

Btw garrus being batman right there... He did vigilant things in ME1 that put him in alot of trouble with executioner pallin, and he left C-sec in a heart bit to join shepard.