Help needed with Japanese weapon and armour stats

[Destin Faroda]

Hi there,
I am interested in creating a realism mod for Shogun 2, Gempei and Boshin. In order to achieve my goal, I would like to create tables with believable weapon and armour stats. These tables and some modifiers will be used to determine the troop's stats in a logical and believable way.
Luckily, I was able to acquire the guide for RealCombat 2.0. It contains stats and modifiers which can be used to create "realistic" unit stats for Medieval 2. Unfortunately, Japanese warfare was quite different and the guide doesn't contain stats for tetsubos and Boshin weapons like bayonets.
So, can anyone with knowledge about Japanese warfare comment the values and my guesses?

Armours
Armour | Def bonus | Agility bonus | Type
00 | 0 | 3 | Unarmored
01 | 0 | 3 | Heavy robes, furs
03 | 0 | 2 | Leather
03 | 1 | 2 | Gambeson
04 | 0 | 2 | Leather Lamellar = leather domaru, haramaki?
05 | 0 | 1 | Light Brigandine
06 | 0 | 1 | Light Lamellar/Scale = metal scale domaru, ahramaki?
05 | 0 | 1 | Partial Light Mail 05 | 1 | 1 | Light Mail
06 | 0 | 1 | Buff Coat
08 | 0 | 0 | Lamellar/Scale
07 | 0 | 0 | Partial Heavy Mail
07 | 1 | 0 | Heavy Mail = tatamido?
07 | 0 | 0 | Brigandine
09 | 1 | 0 | Splint, Coat of Plates
10 | 0 | 0 | Heavy Lamellar/Scale = oyoroi?
09 | 0 | 0 | Heavy Brigandine
12 | 0 | 0 | Partial Plate = nanbando?
08 | 0 | 2 | Breastplate
11 | 1 | 0 | Heavy Splint
12 | 0 | 0 | Late Lamellar = okegawado, hotokedo, mogamido?
11 | 0 | 0 | Late Brigandine
14 | 0 | 0 | Full Plate

Weapons
Att | Cha | Def | Anti-Cav | Type
4 | 2 | 4 | 0 | Light sword, cutting = Katana?
5 | 3 | 4 | 0 | Sword, cutting = Tachi, Nagamaki?
6 | 4 | 4 | 0 | Long sword, cutting = Boshin sabre?
8 | 6 | 6 | 1 | Odachi?
2 | 4 | 1 | 4 | Pike = Extralong Yari?
3 | 4 | 2 | 4 | Short Pike = Long Yari?
5 | 3 | 3 | 3 | Spear = Yari?
8 | 5 | 5 | 4 | Swordstaff = Naginata?
7 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 2H Club = Tetsubo?
6 | 3 | 3 | 3 | Bayonet?

[raest]

Weapons
Att | Cha | Def | Anti-Cav | Type
4 | 2 | 4 | 0 | Light sword, cutting = Katana?
5 | 3 | 4 | 0 | Sword, cutting = Tachi, Nagamaki?
6 | 4 | 4 | 0 | Long sword, cutting = Boshin sabre?
8 | 6 | 6 | 1 | Odachi?
2 | 4 | 1 | 4 | Pike = Extralong Yari?
3 | 4 | 2 | 4 | Short Pike = Long Yari?
5 | 3 | 3 | 3 | Spear = Yari?
8 | 5 | 5 | 4 | Swordstaff = Naginata?
7 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 2H Club = Tetsubo?
6 | 3 | 3 | 3 | Bayonet?

why would a katana be lighter/shorter/less damaging than a tachi or a sabre? they're pretty much exactly the same thing (all the 5/3/4 tier?). nodachi def bonus 6? why? i don't think it would be easier to defend/parry with an oversized katana than with a regular sized one (but maybe i'm wrong). bayonet a more damaging yari? why? and with those stats why would anyone use nodachis instead of naginatas (especially when you take into consideration the naginata was way more common)? naginata same anti-cav bonus as pikes but more damage and charge and defence? with those stats, it's hard to justify the recruiting of anything but naginatas (and ranged weapons, of course). just my 0,02$

[Destin Faroda]

As I mentioned above, I have used RealCombat 2 (which is tailored to Medieval 2's engine) and tried to allocate the Japanese weapons to their European counterparts.
- As far as I know, the katana is actually nothing more than a sidearm and usually a bit shorter than a Tachi. That's why the Tachi was still preferred by mounted Samurai. Therefore, it should a bit stronger than the Katana.
- The boshin sabre is a modern Western weapon. Western weapons are usually heavier than the light Japanese swords so that's why I think it should be stronger than a Tachi.
- The Odachi def bonus is also a mystery to me. Shouldn't it be more difficult to block with a heavier 1,60m sword than with a shorter and lighter Tachi/Katana? Or maybe the RC 2 maker thought that it is easier to defend with it due to its superior reach?
- The Boshin bayonet was a guess by me. The model looks quite impressive: a rifle with a very big sword in front of it. It reminds me of a short swordstaff.
- How strong was a naginata acutally? I presume being hit by the tip of a 1,60-2,50m long staff with a blade is quite devastating. Maybe 7 would be more appropriate? And the cavalry bonus could be decreased to 3.

[raest]

As I mentioned above, I have used RealCombat 2 (which is tailored to Medieval 2's engine) and tried to allocate the Japanese weapons to their European counterparts.

that's the problem. RC was designed for MTW2. STW2 uses a completely different engine, so a different RC should be made (if you want to follow the RC "template"), and that requires lots of testing

- As far as I know, the katana is actually nothing more than a sidearm and usually a bit shorter than a Tachi. That's why the Tachi was still preferred by mounted Samurai. Therefore, it should a bit stronger than the Katana.

afaik, tachi/katana by the time of the sengoku period were almost interchangeable terms, where the most difference was in the swordmaker signature position and the wearing style (blade up or down), a bit more curvature (hence the preference for mounted warriors), and the difference in length was maybe a couple of centimeters, probably less if you considered some kind of global average, and slightly thinner, certainly not different enough to warrant "a higher category" (in more recent times, the difference is only in the signature)

- The boshin sabre is a modern Western weapon. Western weapons are usually heavier than the light Japanese swords so that's why I think it should be stronger than a Tachi.

not true. the average weight for both is about the same (i.e. about 0,8-1,3kg, don't remember if it's with or without scabbard, but it's irrelevant)

- The Boshin bayonet was a guess by me. The model looks quite impressive: a rifle with a very big sword in front of it. It reminds me of a short swordstaff.

i'd imagine a spear/yari with an equal blade would be easier to handle/aim than a rifle with a knife at the end?

- How strong was a naginata acutally? I presume being hit by the tip of a 1,60-2,50m long staff with a blade is quite devastating. Maybe 7 would be more appropriate? And the cavalry bonus could be decreased to 3.

i'm pretty sure getting hit forcefully by a cutting piece of steel is quite devastating, whether it's a naginata, halberd, claymore or katana

[Destin Faroda]

Newest version: https://github.com/DestinFaroda/Shog...-and-Modifiers

[raest]

looks better, now it just needs testing

btw, mounted naginata higher charge than yari/same as lance?! i don't think charging with a halberd would be as effective as you think, otherwise it would've been used extensively in the west

also those morale numbers seem really high. ninjas and samurais having double the morale of ashigarus? you've been watching too much anime imho, avoid the jump in tiers from 15 to 25 (keep it at a steady 5, with only heroes having 10 or 15 more), make sohei have higher morale than samurai (them being "religious fanatics" in way, and thus less prone to break ), but maybe give samurai "immune to morale shocks" but not to sohei. and i don't see why battlefield ninjas should be so powerful other than "they're cool", which isn't that realistic (or having them at all )

oh, and do you plan to include uanime5's extended japan mod in yours? if not, you should

[Destin Faroda]

DaVinci has allowed me to use his realism mods as base for my own work. It completely alters the game rules and morale tables. Therefore, values of 30 for elite troops work fine. Of course, these stats are not final yet as I intend to change the date of my mod to the late Sengoku period where Ashigaru are better trained and drilled.
Expanded Japan and 12 turns per year is definitely going to be a part of my mod.

[Kissaki]

Newest version: https://github.com/DestinFaroda/Shog...-and-Modifiers

A few things.

1) Why does the bayonet have the same stats, both offensively and defensively, as the yari? It would certainly do about as much damage, but how is range factored in? A bayonetted rifle would be less flexible in defence than a spear, certainly. And given the difference in length the bayonet should definitely not have the same anti-cavalry stat as the yari.
2) I see no reason why mounted sword should have better attack than dismounted sword, quite the opposite in fact (on foot you can use both hands, and more and better angles of attack). The charge bonus is ok, and that's just the thing: the only advantage the cavalryman has, in actual fighting, is the charge. He never wants to be caught stationary, because then he is at a disadvantage against anyone on foot.
3) Ditto mounted yari.
4) And mounted naginata - in fact, naginata is very poorly suited as a cavalry weapon, and the only anecdotes we have of mounted naginata use speak of samurai standing in their saddles, stationary, wielding their naginata in hero-fashion - though I find this scenario unlikely as well. The naginata is a glaive, suitable only for two-handed use, and suitable only for draw-cuts. Its advantage is range, but actually deals a less powerful blow than the sword, because it is not a chopping weapon. It is also more curved than the katana (especially towards the kissaki), making it less suitable for thrusts (but all the better suited for push-cuts). The naginata should have very low charge bonus, I'd say less even than swords, because of the lack of control you'd have on horseback. In the context of samurai hero wielding naginata while on horseback, however (appealing more to legend than realism), I think the attack value of 4 is ok.

And where's the dismounted naginata?

[Destin Faroda]

Thanks for your comment, Kissaki. However, I have to restart the development of weapon stats. Apparently, Shogun 2's "melee attack" has nothing to do with attack power, but with hit chance.
Now, how to elaborate the hit chance and parry/evasion chance of weapons? One thing is for sure though: defense has to be way higher than attack in order to increase melee duration.

Can we claim the following:
Reach: Sword < Odachi < Tetsubo < Bayonet < Yari < Naginata < Long Yari < Extralong Yari
Weight: Sword < Odachi < Yari < Bayonet < Long Yari < Extralong Yari < Naginata < Tetsubo
Damage values are meaningless as in the Warscape engine, one successful hit immediately kills an unarmoured opponent

I made a quick sketch with these claims in mind and the values now favor polearms over katanas. Due to their longer range, hit chance and defense of polearms would be better. Tetsubos would be good weapons against heavily armoured opponents as they can crush bones and even tosei gusko armour.