Naval Battles Imbalance

[Horatio Hornblower]

I have to report a kind of bug.
During naval battles my ships has a lower fire power than the enemy one. My First Rate seems to be weaker than an enemy Fifth Rate... How's that possible?

[Incomitatus]

I have to report a kind of bug.
During naval battles my ships has a lower fire power than the enemy one. My First Rate seems to be weaker than an enemy Fifth Rate... How's that possible?

Your 1st Rate is weaker than a 5th Rate? I do feel the 5th Rate is a bit too powerful in DarthMod, but surely your comment is an exaggeration? I can defeat a 5th Rate with a 4th Rate and it's only a bit harder than it should be (and that's an 8.1 problem, the ships seemed better balanced in version 7).

What difficulty is your battle setting on?

[Horatio Hornblower]

I mean!
A fifth rate's volley make more damage than my first rate. For example, from a long distance they shoot at my ship. Now, my first rate supposed to be stronger and more resistant...but it's not! I have 102 cannons and 336 men. Well, with a fifth rate's volley they take out 4 of my cannons and around 10 or 12 men, or even more. With my first rate's volley the enemy ship doesn't get a damage. Not even a cannon or a man!! And they are totally on my shooting range!! That's not possible!!

[Incomitatus]

It's probably an accuracy issue, not a firepower issue. For balance reasons, DarthMod makes the ships less accurate the bigger they are. Don't use a 1st Rate at long range, get it in close. You'll shred a 5th Rate in no time firing at point blank.

Just tested, two broadsides at medium range left a 5th Rate surrendered and taking on water.

On the other hand, two volleys from the 5th Rate dropped me down to 20 effective guns on that side of my ship, which certainly shouldn't be happening. Although, it's worth nothing, the guns themselves weren't destroyed, but rather their crews were killed. Barely any hitpoints were taken off my hull, either. I'm not sure why so many casualties are occurring.

[Horatio Hornblower]

I see. Thank you!!
The only problem is to get close without taking to much damage. But I'm pretty sure that they are stronger even from a short distance. That's why I always win by assaulting the enemy ships...

[Incomitatus]

Well, the first thing I would suggest is that 1st Rates are meant to be flagships of battle squadrons. They should be with other ships of the line (2nd, 3rd, and 4th Rates), which makes it much easier to cover each other and make sure that two or three always have their guns trained on the enemy.

Second, it's a lot easier to fight a 5th Rate with a 3rd or 4th Rate or, better still, your own 5th Rate. 1st Rates are just too hard to turn, which makes it too easy for a 5th Rate against a lone 1st Rate to get in front and do S-turns and rake your ship - doing massive damage. Historically, 1st Rates never sailed alone. There was one battle I read about where two 5th Rates took on a 3rd Rate and did terrible damage to it before the wind changed and let it bring its guns to bear... and that was the end of the 5th Rates. That's my problem with the 5th Rates in DarthMod. One broadside from a 3rd Rate or better should, typically, utterly disable them. Instead, they typically take two or three broadsides to cripple.

And if you do have to fight one-on-one with a 1st against a 5th, you would do well to make sure your first volley is chainshot. Taking out a mast or two really makes the rest of the fight a lot easier.

[Horatio Hornblower]

Reading the adventures of Hornblower I learned one thing or two about sailing... Anyway you're right, a 1st rate should never sail alone...that's why I alway have some frigate on my formation!
So what do you suggest? To put a 5th or 4th rate in fornt of my 1st rate?

[Incomitatus]

Well, I recommend tweaking the naval unit stats and upping the armour and speed of the 1st Rate, but that's complicated.

Otherwise, just regard the 5th Rate as a weak ship of the line that's too manoeuvrable for a 1st or 2nd Rate to handle efficiently. Essentially, that's what they are... CA decided (and DarthMod kept it) that they'd use early 18th century 5th Rates (which were two deck mini-ships-of-the-line) instead of the 'classic' 5th Rate (single deck cruiser). Hence the firepower. Handle them with 3rd or 4th Rates in fleet actions. They sink, burn, or surrender easily enough once you can actually get shooting at them.

EDIT: I should explain that the changes I'm tweaking are (so far) adjusting the armour and speed settings for the 4th, 3rd, 2nd, 1st, Heavy First, Victory, and Razee ships as well as changing the gun loadout of the 5th Rates. I've left the Admirals 5th Rates as-is, but I've swapped the 18lb guns on the others and replaced them with 12lbers - it's a-historical, but maybe it'll get a better result. I'm still testing.

EDIT 2: I'm considering revising the core marksmanship settings, too. Right now accuracy goes down as ship size goes up... that's wrong. The larger the ship, the more stable the gun platform, the easier to aim. The smaller guns tend to get marksmanship bonuses, anyway... which means the small ships, especially the ones with 9lbder, 12lbder, and 18lber guns (like the 5th and 6th Rates) are massively more accurate with their fire than the Ships of the Line.

[Horatio Hornblower]

EDIT 2: I'm considering revising the core marksmanship settings, too. Right now accuracy goes down as ship size goes up... that's wrong. The larger the ship, the more stable the gun platform, the easier to aim. The smaller guns tend to get marksmanship bonuses, anyway... which means the small ships, especially the ones with 9lbder, 12lbder, and 18lber guns (like the 5th and 6th Rates) are massively more accurate with their fire than the Ships of the Line.

Yes! That's the thing!!

[alhoon]

Keep in mind that according to some of Darth's modifications, the larger the cannonball, the more "inately accurate" it is so to speak, as wind affects it less etc. I don't think that the accuracy you see on the gun is the actual accuracy, since other things affect whether or not you will hit (like wind).

[Incomitatus]

Keep in mind that according to some of Darth's modifications, the larger the cannonball, the more "inately accurate" it is so to speak, as wind affects it less etc. I don't think that the accuracy you see on the gun is the actual accuracy, since other things affect whether or not you will hit (like wind).

Indeed. That's interesting. But surely the marksmanship bonuses given to the smaller guns and the higher base accuracy of the smaller ships render the cannonball size distinction rather underwhelming? What's the point in making the larger cannonballs more innately accurate and then giving a marksmanship bonus to the smaller calibre guns? Does the wind have so much impact that it overwhelms the stats?