Cavalry is Ridiculously Overpowered in this Game.

[Theramines]

Another factor to consider is that some horse armours both in the ancient period (Parthian Cataphracts) and late medieval times had chamfrons (the piece of armour covering the horse's head) that covered the eyes of the horse. So in some cases the horses couldn't even see where they were going.

A bit out there and perhaps impossible in the game, but chamfrons would make an interesting tech tree advance or upgrade. Cavalry equipped with it would have something like a more devastating charge, or deeper melee penetration or something like that. Just a thought.

[Strengelicher]

Another one of these discussions. Personally, I think that the knightly charge did exist - otherwise I would not understand why it is depicted in so many medieval paintings and medieval literature. To this day, I have not seen a valid point against it on these forums. People have been claiming various things such as "horses do not run into men and/or spiky things", but I have yet to see such claim being made by someone who has actually trained horses or being backed up by real arguments.

[Carl Jung was right]

I hate to add more fuel to the fire, but as a hardline Budennovist, I must strongly concur with the pro-cavalry sentiments expressed in this thread.

First video games inculcated an extremely unhealthy syndrome of rock paper scissors in players' minds. This is inevitable because video game designers are concerned with balance rather than historical immersion in mind, and are often keen on adding "gamey" elements as opposed to trying to keep in touch with historical realism and even basic common sense. Hence we see the old adage of "spears beat cavalry, cavalry beats archers, archers beat spears" where every unit type gets a "radioactive" weapons bonus against its counterpart. If something is outside of this spectrum, then it must be overpowered and thus unfair, in need of a nerf in the next patch. People then think that what happens in a video game must be then true in real life.

In truth, cavalry was overpowered during that era. Horrendously so. Medieval era armies were for a few important exceptions, hardly impressive establishments. Most soldiers were levy conscripts armed with the trashiest of gear and designed for little other than tying up enemy for the knight arm to make the decisive move. Almost everything was skewed in favor of the heavy horseman. In that era, there existed a breed of heavy destrier horses which could bear the weight of heavy mail and weapons, and were trained to charge unwaveringly into masses of infantry. The knight spent his entire life training for war, he had enough food to sustain optimal physical fitness - completely different from the usual peasant soldier who often had to make do with a much lesser nutritional intake. There was a considerable difference in physical strength, skill and equipment between the footman and the knight. Furthermore the spear itself does not confer any special "bonus" against a mounted opponent. Sure it has a longer reach than the sword, but that doesn't necessarily mean it somehow radioactively dissolves the horseman on touch. A mob of spearmen has hardly any better (or worse) chance of withstanding a cavalry assault than a mob of similarly armed and disciplined swordsmen. In fact most soldiers fought with both spear and sword interchangeably, and not like in games where spearmen get mowed down by sword carrying foot troops. Granted, other weapons introduced in that era, like bills and halberds were especially designed to pull down a horseman from his mount. But this doesn't change the fact that a well executed heavy cavalry charge can break an infantry formation no matter with what kind of weapons its armed from the shock effect it produced. The main weakness of knights themselves was that they were overbearingly arrogant and often horrendously indisciplined, not acting as part of a unified army obeying a single chain of command, but instead independently seeking personal glory. That's why when Christian armies faced organized enemies like Mongols or Mamluks, they often met with spectacular and devastating defeats.

The examples the OP provided showcasing the occasional failure of heavy cavalry to inflict a rout of the opposing infantry force with its charge were by no means a universal rule of that period. In the battle of Hastings for instance, Norman cavalry charged uphill against a highly trained and disciplined Saxon shieldwall. A similar situation prevailed in Agincourt and Nagashino, where attacking cavalry faced a terrain obstacle of some sort. This disabled their main advantage, the shock effect against unprepared and frightened foot troops enough for them to break ranks and flee. The Scots and later the Swiss, adopted pike phalanx type formations whose extremely lengthy reach had the same "obstacle" effect. A horse, no matter how well disciplined or trained will not charge to its certain death. However, I strongly doubt once again, that pikemen slaughter horsemen simply by attacking them. The best a pike wall can do is prevent a cavalry arm from breaking the infantry formation. It was during the rout when most casualties were inflicted. Finally the adoption of weapons like arquebuses and crossbows, which allowed a large missile contingent to be present in an army, shifted the odds away from the relatively small, elite cavalry arm.

But more than anything it was the creation of professional class of soldiers in the 14th-15th century that led to the demise of cataphract type nobility cavalry. It was simply too expensive to maintain heavy knights in face of increasingly effective infantry formations, artillery and combined arms tactics which provided more from a cost-benefit analysis. Cavalry was still a crucial arm in any well balanced army, but it was no longer so lopsidedly decisive as during the Medieval Era.

Regarding the mod, I do not think that cavalry is overpowered at all. I find that the best way to deal with them is to first tie them up with cavalry of your own, and then swamp them in melee with various foot troops. Deploy in multiple ranks, with trashier units in the front, let them waste their charge bonuses on a unit you don't care much about, and then attack them with the reserve (preferably a billman type unit). Cavalry archers and missile troops do a great job at thinning down their numbers, and given the limits of the AI, I don't think this is hard to accomplish. Without their charge bonus, they're really not so different from an understrength heavy infantry unit.

[UndrState]

Well I'm no historian but something that I haven't seen mentioned that must've played a factor is of course the weapon of the calvary unit. A long, stout lance projecting ahead of the horse with all it's momentum is striking the spearmen (or other, non-pikemen, infantry) before the spearman's weapon hits the horse, breaking that spearman's brace and probably casting him back into the men behind him. Even if the lance doesn't then continue to skewer the men behind the first line, the kinetic energy of the horse ramming into bodies must surely break bones, and again loosen any bracing against a charge. Likewise I also imagine some breast plate armour (I'm sure there's a proper term) on the front of the horse would go a long way toward reducing the effect hit box, so to speak, on the horse.

I think it's fair to say that infantry armed with longer weapons would do better against cavalry than others once the calvary charge is over and everyone is in melee. But bracing for the charge must take stouter, longer weapons (and a good bit of missile support helps).

The flip side is that greatly inferior numbers of cavalry shouldn't be able to run rampant, and a professional infantry unit that survives a charge and keeps the cavalry tied down should do some serious damage.

[jasondef13]

Reading some of the comments questioning whether you can get horses to charge into a wall of men with spears/weapons, the quote from Gene Hackman's character in Crimson Tide comes to mind: "You just stick a cattle prod up their ass and you can get a horse to deal cards" The tools of the medieval horse rider (spurs, whips, batons, spikes etc) combined with things like blinders, and the "mob mentality" horses have during a charge or stampede, could be effective in getting war trained horses to charge into anything, even over a damn cliff if you wanted.

But getting back to one of the original posted questions, regarding nerfing down the cavalry, isn't there a way to go into the game files and manually edit the attack and defense stats of all the different units if you wanted? Seems like in the past I've read that before in several places with at least other mods and/or game elements. Perhaps someone here with more knowledge on scripting and modding than I have can help me here?

[jasondef13]

Also I think if you're Scotland you will be successful defending against cavalry. Remember in Braveheart, when the Scottish line was facing a cavalry charge, and they secretly were hiding long spears at their feet in the grass, spears as long as a man ("Some men are longer than others!" "Har, ur mum's been tellin stories about me again has she!") and then at the very last second before the charge hit they lifted the spears up, and it killed like all of the English cavalry and they won the battle? So there you go, be Scotland, and it helps if you are mel gibson (pre-crazy).

[Theramines]

If memory serves, in the Battle of Pinkie between Scots and English (pike and shot era, mind), the English cavalry charged straight into the Scottish pike wall and lost a couple hundred in a few moments. So, that's an instance where the cavalry did charge straight into the pointy things.
I was also thinking while reading a couple of the posts above about why the the first rankers or so of a pike wall jammed the butts of their pikes into the ground at their right foot. A possible explanation is that they were propped to receive a force greater than a human could bear, ie a big fat horse.
That in turn might suggest that shield walls and spears weren't rigid enough to resist cavalry/knight charges.

[Vanguard13]

Specifically anti-cav spearmen should have their bonus (when fighting cav) increased. Why not. But the physics and 'weight' factors going into the cav charge are pretty legit as is.

Outside of this, an up armoured knight in full gallop is comparable in weight and mass to a volkswagon beetle equipped with a long sharp pole charging into a crowd at 45km an hour.

[Kolaris8472]

Can someone advocating head on cavalry charges explain how in the world you think it would actually go down?

Even if the horses did pummel full speed into the wall of men, what then? They're going to lose momentum, some of them are going to fall, and it's a massive pileup behind them.

If the cavalry doesn't have an avenue through the ranks of men I can't imagine a situation that doesn't end in disaster.

[ammo1369]

Historically cavalry charges were devastating depending on everything; horses, weapons, size and weight of horse riders, speed of charge, distance traveled, balance etc. A perfect example is the Polish Hussar cavalry. Men which were a part of that "ace in the sleeve" were well trained, equipped, confident and disciplined and had to defeat forces sometimes 5x bigger than their own. A good example is Battle of Chocimiem, where 8000 hussars have defeated a horde of Turkish troops estimating 120000 men and stopping Islam from spreading further to Europe

[ljoevieira]

i cant see the ponit on early professional "Norman Sargents", when idle defending my flank, get charged by a General's Bodyguard and lose the fight.

They take the charge, they sustained the heavily loses, but they lost the melee fight. "They are professional spearmans (and the england especial units), they kill horses for a living"

[Stario]

Historically cavalry charges were devastating depending on everything; horses, weapons, size and weight of horse riders, speed of charge, distance traveled, balance etc. A perfect example is the Polish Hussar cavalry. Men which were a part of that "ace in the sleeve" were well trained, equipped, confident and disciplined and had to defeat forces sometimes 5x bigger than their own. A good example is Battle of Chocimiem, where 8000 hussars have defeated a horde of Turkish troops estimating 120000 men and stopping Islam from spreading further to Europe

The battle of Chocimen is not really a good example of cavalry against square formations or shield-wall type formations. If anything the example is rather counterproductive to the topic at hand- with the heavy cavalry Ottoman army & its inexperienced artillerymen. Ottoman cavalry repeatedly charging/assaulting & repeatedly being repulsed by the more (infantry/artillery/cavalry), balanced commonwealth forces.

[Castiel]

i cant see the ponit on early professional "Norman Sargents", when idle defending my flank, get charged by a General's Bodyguard and lose the fight.They take the charge, they sustained the heavily loses, but they lost the melee fight. "They are professional spearmans (and the england especial units), they kill horses for a living"

I am more concern with this rather than all those overused agruments from both sides of this age-old "debate" (which were all the same with the majorities of people who jumped in are young history enthusiasts).P.s: In 6.4 I played as Byzantium and I used militias to absorb the charge of Knights and General's Bodyguards (takes 2, the 1st one is wiped out then the 2nd one jumped in as cannon folders); then the border troops (the early prof.s guys with Javelins) came in and they usually won the fight with ease. The problem might be with the particular Norman Sargents may be?

[Shaun]

Well javelins are very strong against cavalry. When playing as the Byzantines I use the mounted Acritae to take care of enemy knights and it usually works very well.

[kyfohatl]

@Carl Jung was right: Hey man, that was an interesting read. Could you provide your sources as well please? I'd be interested in reading them.

[Stario]

I am more concern with this rather than all those overused agruments from both sides of this age-old "debate" (which were all the same with the majorities of people who jumped in are young history enthusiasts).P.s: In 6.4 I played as Byzantium and I used militias to absorb the charge of Knights and General's Bodyguards (takes 2, the 1st one is wiped out then the 2nd one jumped in as cannon folders); then the border troops (the early prof.s guys with Javelins) came in and they usually won the fight with ease. The problem might be with the particular Norman Sargents may be?

Its the Javelins that turn the tide (not to mention you seem to be using x3 units against x1 unit of BG's). Even better are horse javelins. Just turn auto shot off and only turn it on when you make pass on Bodyguards (as to not waste javelins on other units), and watch the bodyguards drop like flies. In 3-4 passes they will be down to like 3-4 men.

I think the problem with the Serjeants is their low unit number coupled with a poor attack stat. I actually find better results with the shock troops (high attack infantry). The Ai cavalry seems to be drawn to them also. Just have them 4 lines deep (off guard mode). When the Ai cavalry charges them switch to loose formation, after the initial charge is over switch back to tight formation. You will loose a dozen or so of men to the initial charge but then the infantry will swoop around the cavalry in a ball of mass (with the cavalry usually ending up in the middle), then watch the cavalry drop in the melee that follows. *Note this tactic doesn't work as well against the Roman BG's those guys are just OP (I personally had to tone them down).

[Carl Jung was right]

@Carl Jung was right: Hey man, that was an interesting read. Could you provide your sources as well please? I'd be interested in reading them.

Two sources which covered the battle mechanics of cavalry that I've sort of kept in the back of my mind were Hans Delbruck's "History of the Art of War", and "Normans: Knights and Conquerors" by Christopher Gravett.

There was also a very fascinating military blog which analyzed the tactics deployed in famous historical battles that I spent hours reading. Unfortunately I can't remember the url, and it's driving me nuts.

[Losthief]

Reading some of the comments questioning whether you can get horses to charge into a wall of men with spears/weapons, the quote from Gene Hackman's character in Crimson Tide comes to mind: "You just stick a cattle prod up their ass and you can get a horse to deal cards" The tools of the medieval horse rider (spurs, whips, batons, spikes etc) combined with things like blinders, and the "mob mentality" horses have during a charge or stampede, could be effective in getting war trained horses to charge into anything, even over a damn cliff if you wanted.

But getting back to one of the original posted questions, regarding nerfing down the cavalry, isn't there a way to go into the game files and manually edit the attack and defense stats of all the different units if you wanted? Seems like in the past I've read that before in several places with at least other mods and/or game elements. Perhaps someone here with more knowledge on scripting and modding than I have can help me here?

best way to affect calvary charge would be the mass of the unit if im not mistaken or confusing games. Point Blank would know tho, if you'd like to nerf 'em pm him, im sure he'd help.

[k/t]

"Unfortunately I can't remember the url, and it's driving me nuts."

Check your browser's history.

"Point Blank would know tho"

I think cavalry masses were decreased in the latest RC, and infantry masses were increased based on unit quality. This means higher quality units will resist charges better.

Also, most cavalry units don't have stamina bonuses anymore, so they'll get tired much faster.

[Losthief]

"Unfortunately I can't remember the url, and it's driving me nuts."

Check your browser's history.

"Point Blank would know tho"

I think cavalry masses were decreased in the latest RC, and infantry masses were increased based on unit quality. This means higher quality units will resist charges better.

Also, most cavalry units don't have stamina bonuses anymore, so they'll get tired much faster.

Thanks k/t, been absent alot lately, so my info is getting rusty .