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Thread: Is Christianity a Violent Religion?

  1. #81

    Default Re: Is Christianity a Violent Religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by the Grim Squeaker
    So Gabriella you'd dismiss the gospels anyway? But they are the sole report so Christianity is either wrong or violent, no two ways about it. (I'd also refer you to Luke 1-4). The fact it does not say "We might be wrong" does not mean it is wrong; in any way whatsoever.
    I do dismiss the Gospels. Certainly the OT. The God described in there rules on a base of fear. If you don't believe in Him, He will ****ing spank you. And not just you, but your children. And their children.
    But Luke doesn't claim to be divinely inspired while writing down his "lessons". He claims that they are true. Hardly the same thing...

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  2. #82
    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    Default Re: Is Christianity a Violent Religion?

    He claims that they are an accurate record of what Jesus said and did. This means that it is literally true and not flawed.

  3. #83
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Is Christianity a Violent Religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by the Grim Squeaker
    Actually your article says nothing of the sort, Ummon, and certainly not with the Biblical quotations; it says some things Jesus did, not said, but did, were not wrriten; and this does not mean Biblical teaching was flawed. It also says it is not up to man to try to interpret the Bible (the Acts passage); thus directly conflicting with your statement.
    The Scriptures themselves assert that they are incomplete and send us to the Church. "Many other signs also did Jesus . . . which are not written." (John 20:30). "Thinkest thou that thou understandest what thou readest ?" . . . . "How can I, unless some man show me" (Acts 8:30, 31).
    You can be so wrongly persistent, at times...

    Analysis of Squeakus: it says the NT doesn't report things Jesus did, but not things Jesus said.

    All recounts of Jesus life though differ. If they differ they can't be perfect nor exact. Aside from this, we must assume, according to Squeakus, that all the acts of Jesus which are not reported in the Bible, are situations in which he remained completely silent. :wink:

    Analysis of Squeakus: It also says it is not up to men to try to interpret the Bible.

    The Acts passage says that nobody is capable of interpeting the Bible alone. Thus this is valid for each individual. A community is required to interpret the Bible. As I was saying.

    This is being forced to point out the obvious.
    Last edited by Ummon; September 17, 2006 at 10:21 AM.

  4. #84
    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    Default Re: Is Christianity a Violent Religion?

    Actually I just referred to the quotes you have decided prove me wrong, Ummon, to demonstrate the flaws in your arguments.

  5. #85
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Is Christianity a Violent Religion?

    I will now stop replying to you, until you assume a decent degree of rationality. Thanks.

  6. #86

    Default Re: Is Christianity a Violent Religion?

    Yes. A true tale of what Jesus (I think I'll begin to play Muslim-Christian here)... (May God have mercy on his soul) said and did. Jesus (May God have mercy on his sould), who was devine. Luke (May God have mercy on his soul) believes he has spent time with God in the flesh, and of course wants to tell people about the experience.
    I could claim in this very post, that I spent a lovely morning before sitting at the computer climbing the Mount Everest. I could even tell you that it's true. But I'm only human of course... So was Luke (May God have mercy on his soul)

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  7. #87
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Is Christianity a Violent Religion?

    Many are convinced that they tell the truth, but we do not know what the truth is. Often though we can circumscribe this truth well enough as to learn something of worth from it, without ever attaining truth itself.

  8. #88

    Default Re: Is Christianity a Violent Religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bwaho



    what is said in the qu'ran isn't exactly peaceful though is it?
    In sunday school I did a research project on violence in the Qu'ran as compared with violence in the Bible, and guess what I found out? That infact, the Bible has more violent verses within it, than the Qu'ran does, I'll try to find out some statistics and facts, but here's one for you. If a man's ox runs over another man, effectively killing him, then he[the man] and the ox shall be stoned.

    Salaam,
    Adnan

  9. #89
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    Default Re: Is Christianity a Violent Religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterAdnin
    In sunday school I did a research project on violence in the Qu'ran as compared with violence in the Bible, and guess what I found out? That infact, the Bible has more violent verses within it, than the Qu'ran does, I'll try to find out some statistics and facts, but here's one for you. If a man's ox runs over another man, effectively killing him, then he[the man] and the ox shall be stoned.

    Salaam,
    Adnan
    You really should, you would have surprises I fear. This despite the fact that the Bible is a lot longer than the Quran.

  10. #90

    Default Re: Is Christianity a Violent Religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterAdnin
    In sunday school I did a research project on violence in the Qu'ran as compared with violence in the Bible, and guess what I found out? That infact, the Bible has more violent verses within it, than the Qu'ran does, I'll try to find out some statistics and facts, but here's one for you. If a man's ox runs over another man, effectively killing him, then he[the man] and the ox shall be stoned.

    Salaam,
    Adnan
    While I appreciate the effort, I'm afraid it's a lost cause. For instance, the Bible is much longer than the Qur'an. And did you take into account the reasons for the violence? And how did you define violence? Who is behind the violence? God acting on His own to teach man a lesson? Or man believing he acted with God's blessing?

    For instance we have this verse from the Bible:
    "Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
    But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

    Numbers 31:17-18

    And then Qur'an has it's own version:
    The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;
    Verse 5:33

    Which one of the above would you define as violent? And to what extent is it violent?

    And did you look at it in the context of the passage? And, last, but not least, when you take into account the circumstances preached by both books, can anything done to a nonbeliever really be classified as "cruel"?
    Last edited by Visna; September 17, 2006 at 11:36 AM.

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  11. #91
    AngryTitusPullo's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Is Christianity a Violent Religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriella26
    While I appreciate the effort, I'm afraid it's a lost cause. For instance, the Bible is much longer than the Qur'an. And did you take into account the reasons for the violence? And how did you define violence? Who is behind the violence? God acting on His own to teach man a lesson? Or man believing he acted with God's blessing?

    For instance we have this verse from the Bible:
    "Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
    But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

    Numbers 31:17-18

    And then Qur'an has it's own version:
    The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;
    Verse 5:33

    Which one of the above would you define as violent? And to what extent is it violent?

    And did you look at it in the context of the passage? And, last, but not least, when you take into account the circumstances preached by both books, can anything done to a nonbeliever really be classified as "cruel"?
    The bible verse makes no dinstinction upon whom to apply this violence while the Qur'an verse explicitly stated that B]those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land[/B] falls under this category upon who this violence is allowed.

    I see that you're using M. Pickthall's translation. Hope you read prior and after the immediate verse which says:

    005.032: For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty), but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth.

    005.034 : Save those who repent before ye overpower them. For know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.


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  12. #92

    Default Re: Is Christianity a Violent Religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by AngryTitusPullo
    The bible verse makes no dinstinction upon whom to apply this violence while the Qur'an verse explicitly stated that B]those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land[/B] falls under this category upon who this violence is allowed.

    I see that you're using M. Pickthall's translation. Hope you read prior and after the immediate verse which says:

    005.032: For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty), but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth.

    005.034 : Save those who repent before ye overpower them. For know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
    Heh, nice try ATP.
    The Bible verses in question are in a section of the Bible in which the Jews wage a war condoned by God against the Midianites. In fact, I think I'll quote that part for you as well.
    "And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males." (Emphasiz mine)
    Numbers 31:7

    So you see, the Bible has plenty of excuses for violent behavior.

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  13. #93
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Is Christianity a Violent Religion?

    The Old Testament, yes, which though is not as important as the New Testament. Jesus is the example of the perfect man, on which Christians are supposed to conform their behaviour. As such, there's only one violent episode in his life: when he kicks out the merchants from the Temple. And he doesn't kill anyone, he merely gets angry for sacrilege, and hits them in the back.

    So if imitation of Christ is the filter, the Old Testament assumes a different meaning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriella26
    Heh, nice try ATP.
    The Bible verses in question are in a section of the Bible in which the Jews wage a war condoned by God against the Midianites. In fact, I think I'll quote that part for you as well.
    "And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males." (Emphasiz mine)
    Numbers 31:7

    So you see, the Bible has plenty of excuses for violent behavior.
    Titus is muslim and he was talking of the Quran positively, not of the Bible.

  14. #94
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    Default Re: Is Christianity a Violent Religion?

    Geez, this thread has really grown. Crazy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ummon
    You really should, you would have surprises I fear. This despite the fact that the Bible is a lot longer than the Quran.
    Actually, no. The Old Testament itself is not that much longer than the Quran. And the Old Testament is the most important part of both Christianity and Judaism. After all if the Old Testament isn't true then the New Testaments and Jesus Christ are nobodies.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Often Christians try to promote the alleged pacifism by telling tall tales of how simple Christian folk were martyred in the sands of the gladior pits by those oh-so evil pagan Romans. But historically none of this holds up. While Christians were indeed persecuted the vast majority of persecution and terror in the Roman Empire were by the Christians, especially after the conversion of Constantine.

    The following is an excellent example of how murderous and cruel the early Christians were, especially to pagans of far superior intellect than the rabid Christian mobs.






    Taken from.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypathia_of_Alexandria

    The Murder of Hypatia of Alexandria

    Hypatia of Alexandria (in Greek: Υπατία) (c. 370 - 415) was a popular Hellenized Egyptian philosopher, mathematician, astronomer/astrologer, and teacher who lived in Alexandria, in Hellenistic Egypt, and who contributed greatly to that city's intellectual community. Several works are attributed to her by later sources, including commentaries on Diophantus's Arithmetica, on Apollonius's Conics and on Ptolemy's works, but none have survived. Letters written to her by her pupil Synesius give an idea of her intellectual milieu. She was of the Platonic school, although her adherence to the writings of Plotinus, the 3rd century follower of Plato and principal of the neo-Platonic school, is merely assumed. Hypatia's contributions to science are reputed (on scant evidence) to include the invention of the astrolabe and the hydrometer.




    Her Death

    Edward Gibbon wrote this eloquent passage:

    Hypatia, the daughter of Theon the mathematician, was initiated in her father's studies; her learned comments have elucidated the geometry of Apollonius and Diophantus; and she publicly taught, both at Athens and Alexandria, the philosophy of Plato and Aristotle. In the bloom of beauty, and in the maturity of wisdom, the modest maid refused her lovers and instructed her disciples; the persons most illustrious for their rank or merit were impatient to visit the female philosopher; and Cyril beheld, with jealous eye, the gorgeous train of horses and slaves who crowded the door of her academy. A rumor was spread among the Christians, that the daughter of Theon was the only obstacle to the reconciliation of the prefect and the archbishop; and that obstacle was speedily removed. On a fatal day, in the holy season of Lent, Hypatia was torn from her chariot, stripped naked, dragged to the church, and inhumanly butchered by the hands of Peter the reader and a troop of savage and merciless fanatics: her flesh was scraped from her bones with sharp oyster-shells, and her quivering limbs were delivered to the flames. The just progress of inquiry and punishment was stopped by seasonable gifts; but the murder of Hypatia has imprinted an indelible stain on the character and religion of Cyril of Alexandria.
    Last edited by Miraj; September 17, 2006 at 02:16 PM.

  15. #95
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Is Christianity a Violent Religion?

    That my friend, is not the Bible. And I am fully aware of the historical episode, and many others, which though are completely alien to the teaching of Jesus. Mohammed on the other hand, had ordered killed the two poets personally. Shall we enter details? One of them, a woman, was slaughtered in front of her child.

    Quote Originally Posted by mirage41
    Actually, no. The Old Testament itself is not that much longer than the Quran. And the Old Testament is the most important part of both Christianity and Judaism. After all if the Old Testament isn't true then the New Testaments and Jesus Christ are nobodies.
    False. Totally, utterly. The old testament besides, is for Christians, not false, but incomplete.
    Last edited by Ummon; September 17, 2006 at 02:23 PM.

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    Default Re: Is Christianity a Violent Religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ummon
    That my friend, is not the Bible. And I am fully aware of the historical episode, and many others, which though are completely alien to the teching of Jesus. Mohammed on the other hand, had ordered killed the two poets personally. Shall we enter details? One of them, a woman, was slaughtered in front of her child.



    False. Totally, utterly.

    The murder of Hypatia was very Christian in character and is regarded as the first "witch burning", something which is biblically sanctioned by the old testament and the Church.
    From wiki:
    Soldan and Heppe[6] argue that Hypatia may have been the first famous "witch" punished under Christian authority, as was noted by many church-critical authors who argued that Hypatia's death seems to match the punishment for witchcraft prescribed by the Emperor Constantius II, to be "torn off their bones with iron hooks."

    However, while some of the Christian invective used to justify or excuse her murder betrays a vulgar reliance on fear of black magic, the essence of Christian objections to her influence will have lain in the turbulent confluence of Christian and Platonic assertions about the nature of God and the afterlife, which achieved its most famous expression fifteen years later in Augustine's The City of God. The Patriarch, Cyril, a theologian who was posthumously canonised by the church, has been accused of complicity in the murder[7], although conclusive evidence of this is lacking.

  17. #97
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    Default Re: Is Christianity a Violent Religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by mirage41
    The murder of Hypatia and were very Christian in character and is regarded as the first "witch burning", something which is biblically sanctioned by the old testament and the Church.
    From wiki:
    Wikipedia is no valid source for anything, as it can be edited by anyone.

    Additionally, yours is an allegation without any proof in support. Events such as these started when Christians started to gain political power in the Roman Empire, and were a consequence of bigotry and interest, not of any teaching of Jesus. The OT is a valid guideline, inside the frame of reference of Jesus own life, not outside it. And witch burning, is a practice the Catholic Church for example has disconfessed, and apologized for (though most witch burnings were in protestant countries).

    Now I would suggest that you should be less imprecise.

  18. #98
    AngryTitusPullo's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Is Christianity a Violent Religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriella26
    Heh, nice try ATP.
    The Bible verses in question are in a section of the Bible in which the Jews wage a war condoned by God against the Midianites. In fact, I think I'll quote that part for you as well.
    "And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males." (Emphasiz mine)
    Numbers 31:7

    So you see, the Bible has plenty of excuses for violent behavior.
    Unlike the Qur'an which specifically allows it in self defence against those who make war but still with condition and restriction for those who repent. Isn't that the basic rules of engagement even for the US Marines ? Fire only when fire upon or something ? Like not all US marines honour those military code of conduct, some of muslims also act against the principle of warfare in the Qur'an.


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  19. #99
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    Default Re: Is Christianity a Violent Religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ummon
    Wikipedia is no valid source for anything, as it can be edited by anyone.

    Additionally, yours is an allegation without any proof in support. Events such as these started when Christians started to gain political power in the Roman Empire, and were a consequence of bigotry and interest, not of any teaching of Jesus. The OT is a valid guideline, inside the frame of reference of Jesus own life, not outside it. And witch burning, is a practice the Catholic Church for example has disconfessed, and apologized for (though most witch burnings were in protestant countries).

    Now I would suggest that you should be less imprecise.
    It's funny to see you on the same end as the Muslims now trying to explain away the criminality of your religion. I find it highly hypocritical that someone can bee so vicous towards another mans faith yet become so defensive and dimissive when the overwhelming brutality of his own is fellow Christians is exposed.

    Please don't dismiss the OT as rubbish because a vast majority of practicing Christians, especially here in North America, believe ALL the bible is LITERALLY true.

  20. #100
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    Default Re: Is Christianity a Violent Religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by AngryTitusPullo
    Unlike the Qur'an which specifically allows it in self defence against those who make war but still with condition and restriction for those who repent. Isn't that the basic rules of engagement even for the US Marines ? Fire only when fire upon or something ? Like not all US marines honour those military code of conduct, some of muslims also act against the principle of warfare in the Qur'an.
    The problem is, that the Old Testament is not the most important guideline for Christian behaviour.

    Quote Originally Posted by mirage41
    It's funny to see you on the same end as the Muslims now trying to explain away the criminality of your religion.
    It is not my religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by mirage41
    I find it highly hypocritical that someone can bee so vicous towards another mans faith yet become so defensive and dimissive when the overwhelming brutality of his own is fellow Christians is exposed.
    Another self-inflicted blow. I am not a Christian. I am a theist. For some aspects a Taoist, for others a Buddhist, for others a Gnostic. But not of any given creed. You may also say a Syncretist.

    Quote Originally Posted by mirage41
    Please don't dismiss the OT as rubbish because a vast majority of practicing Christians, especially here in North America, believe ALL the bible is LITERALLY true.
    That's their problem, and I am not dismissing the OT as rubbish. More like your arguments.

    Clearer picture now?
    Last edited by Ummon; September 17, 2006 at 02:36 PM.

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