Is Christianity a Violent Religion?

[ENSAIS]

So everything a Muslim says that Christians don't agree with is propaganda? Starting to sound like Muslims aren't we?



Anyway, many people claim all they need to get into heaven is to accept Jesus(PBUH) as the son of God, and to accept Christianity as the rightful religion.

Salaam,
Adnan

I am generally respectfull of your posts... but I fail to see how that first part is worthy of so many smileys. Seriously, please enlighten me.


2nd... those claims are pretty easy to refute by Jesus himself, who said you would know them by thier fruit... He also said to leave mother, father, nets, etc.. and follow Him. That entails a much greater level of commitment than just mentally believing that he is the son of God and Christianity is the rightful religion. In fact, Jesus Himself teaches in John CH3 that those who are his followers will be born again, and be new creatures... and in John CH 10:24-32 (new American Standard) you can read this:
24The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, "How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly."
25Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.
26"But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30"I and the Father are one."
31The Jewspicked up stones again to stone Him.
32Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?"

So as I was saying... you will know a Christian by his fruit--that he has become, and lives as, a new creature in Christ.

ENSAIS

[MasterAdnin]

Ehm, to get in heaven one must:

Live a relatively sinless life

Repent for his sins

Believe in God

According to Christians. These are the main aspects of it.

So then why is it that most Christians believe that one must believe in Christ as the Messiah, and one must believe in the Trinity?

Salaam,
Adnan

[Ummon]

I didn't enter the detail of the dogma. Theories on salvation differ between the various denominations.

[Richard the Lionheart]

I didn't enter the detail of the dogma. Theories on slavation differ between the various denominations.

Those denominations which do not accept Jesus as God/Son of God are not considered Christians at all.

[Ummon]

It is possible to say that Jesus made salvation possible even for non-christians without saying he is not the Son of God.

[boofhead]

So everything a Muslim says that Christians don't agree with is propaganda? Starting to sound like Muslims aren't we?



Anyway, many people claim all they need to get into heaven is to accept Jesus(PBUH) as the son of God, and to accept Christianity as the rightful religion.

Salaam,
Adnan

No. Everything that a muslim says incorrect about Christianity is WRONG and is LIES. It is taught to muslims by anti-Christian leaders/so-called scholars of Islam. It is anti-Christian deceit. Christianity was around well before Islam and yet muslims come along (late-starters) and try to tell Christians about their own centuries old religion. It is insulting lies. Islam in this respect is like a prodigal son who never returned to his father's home and instead abused and degraded his own father from a distance.

Muslims will never sound like Christians. Muslims cannot admit the horrors of their own history, while Christians can. The degrees of honesty involved are like BLACK and WHITE; CHALK and CHEESE. Even now many muslims make excuses for murdering terrorist animals like Osama.

Cheers
boof

[MasterAdnin]

I am generally respectfull of your posts... but I fail to see how that first part is worthy of so many smileys. Seriously, please enlighten me.

I'm sorry if it seemed that I was disrespectful, I was tyring to say that you were doing the samething that people calim Islam does, and that is propaganda.

@Boofhead, exactly my point, which some people are too arrogant, to see about Islam. Christian scholars cannot be trusted to speak of Islam, just as much as Islamic scholars cannot be trusted to speak of Christianity.

Salaam,
Adnan

[Ummon]

Quite a strange assumption. The truth is that there are many catholic priests who are experts of Islamic scriptures, and speak ancient arabic fluently.

[ENSAIS]

So then why is it that most Christians believe that one must believe in Christ as the Messiah, and one must believe in the Trinity?

Salaam,
Adnan

I am unsure that belief in the Trinity is necessary. Belief in Christ as an incarnation of God is... or he would not have said in John 10 that "I and my father (GOD) are one",...

Jesus actually explains the Trinity pretty well in John Ch 14:15-29:
15 “If you love Me, keep[d] My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.
19 “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. 20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”
22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?”
23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.
25 “These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. 28 You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.
29 “And now I have told you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe. 30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me. 31 But that the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father gave Me commandment, so I do. Arise, let us go from here.

As for accepting Jesus as Messiah, Jesus says it is necessary for being a Christian:
John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Suggestion: read book of John if you want more info on Christianity.
ENSAIS

[PacSubCom]

So it's a human error, and not a religious one. The thread has come to a close it seems, as the original question has just been settled.

That wonderful peaceful religion should prevent us from doing so. But it doesn't. Where is the praised moral compass of christians? Guess what, it doesn't exist. And what does that say about violent Islam. Questions upon questions...

[ENSAIS]

That wonderful peaceful religion should prevent us from doing so. But it doesn't. Where is the praised moral compass of christians? Guess what, it doesn't exist. And what does that say about violent Islam. Questions upon questions...

rather cryptic post. Does this mean that you believe Christianity "is a violent religion" [note, not "WAS"] because of some lack of moral compass that doesn't exist and so that nonexistent moral compass of Christians implies something about Islam?

No kidding about the questions part. Can you clarify?

ENSAIS

PS notice no direct responses by anyone to the words of Christ from John...

[Ó Cathasaigh]

That wonderful peaceful religion should prevent us from doing so. But it doesn't. Where is the praised moral compass of christians? Guess what, it doesn't exist. And what does that say about violent Islam. Questions upon questions...

It's up to the individual to make the choices, the religion just informs you of the best option, the choice is still up to the individual.

There goes your arguement....again.

[Miraj]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathars
The Cathars and the Albigesian Crusade

Background

Catharism was a religious movement with dualist Christian and Gnostic elements that appeared in the Languedoc in the eleventh century and flourished in the 12th century. It was condemned by the contemporary Roman Catholic Church either as a heretical Christian sect or sometimes as a non-Christian religion. It existed throughout much of Western Europe, but its focus was in Languedoc and surrounding areas - Occitania - what is now southern France.

Cassus Belli for Christian Oppression

In January 1208 the papal legate, Pierre de Castelnau was sent to meet the ruler of the area, Count Raymond VI of Toulouse. Known for excommunicating noblemen who protected the Cathars, Pierre de Castelnau excommunicated Raymond as an abettor of heresy. Pierre was murdered near Saint Gilles Abbey in 1208 on his way back to Rome, allegedly by a knight in the service of Count Raymond. As soon as he heard of the murder, the Pope ordered his legates to preach a Crusade against the Cathars. The Pope then called a formal crusade, appointing a series of leaders to head the assault. There followed over forty years of war against the Cathars and their allies in the Languedoc. See Albigensian Crusade.


The Albigensian Crusade and the massacre of the Cathars

The crusader army came under the command, both spiritual and military, of the papal legate Arnaud-Amaury, Abbot of Cîteaux. In the first significant engagement of the war, the town of Béziers was taken on 22 July 1209. Arnaud, the Cistercian abbot-commander is said to have been asked how to tell Cathar from Catholic. His reply, recorded by a fellow Cistercian, was "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius." — “Kill them all, the Lord will recognise His own”. The doors of the church of St Mary Magdalene were broken down and the occupants slaughtered. 7,000 people died there including women and children. Elsewhere in the town many more thousands were mutilated and killed. Prisoners were blinded, dragged behind horses, and used for target practice. The town was razed. Arnaud, the abbot-commander, wrote to his master, the Pope:

“Today your Holiness, twenty thousand citizens were put to the sword, regardless of rank, age, or sex.” .

The population of Béziers was then probably no more than 15,000 but with local refugees seeking shelter within the city walls, the number claimed, 20,000, is possible.



Further Oppression and Annihilation of the Cathars by Christian Fanatics

The Inquisition was established in 1229 to root out the Cathars. Operating in the south at Toulouse, Albi, Carcassonne and other towns during the whole of the 13th century, and a great part of the 14th, it succeeded in extirpating the movement. From May 1243 to March 1244, the Cathar fortress of Montségur was besieged by the troops of the seneschal of Carcassonne and the archbishop of Narbonne. On March 16, 1244 a large and symbolically important massacre took place, where over 200 Cathar perfects were thrown into an enormous fire at the prat des cramats near the foot of the castle. Moreover, the church decreed severe chastisement against all laymen suspected of sympathy with Cathars (Council of Narbonne, 1235; see the Bulla of Innocent IV Ad exstirpanda, 1252).

Hunted down by the Inquisition and abandoned by the nobles of the district, the Albigenses became more and more scattered, hiding in the forests and mountains, and only meeting surreptitiously. Later insurrections broke out under the leadership of Bernard of Foix, Aimery of Narbonne and Bernard Délicieux (a Franciscan friar) at the beginning of the 14th century. But at this point vast inquests were set up by the Inquisition, which increased its efforts in the district. Precise indications of these are found in the registers of the Inquisitors, Bernard of Caux, Jean de St Pierre, Geoffroy d'Ablis, and others. Members of the Elect, Parfaits, rarely if ever recanted their faith and were burned alive in their hundreds. Repentent "lay" believers were punished but generally their lives were spared as long as they did not relapse. Having recanted, they were obliged to sew yellow crosses onto their outdoor clothing.

After decades of severe persecution, the sect was exhausted and could find no more adepts, and after 1330 the records of the Inquisition contain few proceedings against Cathars. The last known Cathar Perfect in the Languedoc, Guillaume Bélibaste, was executed in 1321.



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Indeed the story of the cruel annihilation of these peaceful psuedo-Christian sect highlights the sheer brutality of the Christian doctrine and church. Never had humanity seen such wanton cruelty or oppression for a fictitious religion in its history. Not even the Romans ever practices such unneccessary brutality on such a massive scale. It's a testament to what Christianity is capable of and is still capable of. Note that the Abbot states "kill them all, the lord will recognize his own". It is startlingly similar to a American military motiff common in Vietnam and even among US soldiers today: "kill em all, let god sort them out".

[Ó Cathasaigh]

God demanded this?

[ENSAIS]

Apparently it was in the rest of John 10 or John 14.. which he has kindly addressed as a pronounciation of how Christianity IS based on the middle ages...
ENSAIS

[Ó Cathasaigh]

Nvm, I think I get what you're saying.

[Lord Bohemond]

I suspect that Christianism was a violent religion.

For cultural, political and economic reasons independent from the teachings of Jesus, as well.

Excellent point.

Back in 1096 - EVERYBODY behaved that way, regardless of creed.

I find it interesting that people say "Well, we shouldn't judge Muslim fundamentalists - because Christians do that too" - well, that was a thousand years ago. Sorry, but that ain't gonna cut it.

[Miraj]

Excellent point.

Back in 1096 - EVERYBODY behaved that way, regardless of creed.

I find it interesting that people say "Well, we shouldn't judge Muslim fundamentalists - because Christians do that too" - well, that was a thousand years ago. Sorry, but that ain't gonna cut it.

The problem with Christians is that they take credit for things that they never progressed. The reason why westerners don't behave like the way medieval minded Muslim behave is thanks to the benefits of secularization, liberalization and the centuries of covert and overt dismantling of the Christian religion. The Enlightenment and advent of liberal thought wouldn't have happened without the oppressive history of Christian terror. The dissillusionment with the Church, the Bible and religion in general is what led to the disestablishment of religious dogma in politics.

The difference in Islam is that during the medieval times we did not go through inquisitions, crusades, protestant/catholic wars or the black plague. Muslims didn't have any overwhelming sense of oppression to "respond". In fact Muslims are going through in modern times what Europe already went through during the dark ages. When you tell Muslims "well why cant you be tolerant like us" you're basically asking Muslims to do in a moment what it too Europe over a 1000 years to achieve.

Our dark ages are only starting. It will be a while before the dissillusionment with the false promises of the Islamists and the backward cruelty of shariah law leads to gradual secularization and liberalization of Muslims at the cultural and social level.

[Garbarsardar]

The problem with Christians is that they take credit for things that they never progressed. The reason why westerners don't behave like the way medieval minded Muslim behave is thanks to the benefits of secularization, liberalization and the centuries of covert and overt dismantling of the Christian religion. The Enlightenment and advent of liberal thought wouldn't have happened without the oppressive history of Christian terror. The dissillusionment with the Church, the Bible and religion in general is what led to the disestablishment of religious dogma in politics.

The difference in Islam is that during the medieval times we did not go through inquisitions, crusades, protestant/catholic wars or the black plague. Muslims didn't have any overwhelming sense of oppression to "respond". In fact Muslims are going through in modern times what Europe already went through during the dark ages. When you tell Muslims "well why cant you be tolerant like us" you're basically asking Muslims to do in a moment what it too Europe over a 1000 years to achieve.

Our dark ages are only starting. It will be a while before the dissillusionment with the false promises of the Islamists and the backward cruelty of shariah law leads to gradual secularization and liberalization of Muslims at the cultural and social level.

I hope you are right. Because history is neither linear, nor comparable and shuns repetition.

[Miraj]

I hope you are right. Because history is neither linear, nor comparable and shuns repetition.

Thats exactly my point. People think that since we're in the 21st century every body must think in the same way as X group of advanced peoples do. I think the comparisan of today's muslim dark age is apt. It has all the hallmarks of the European dark age

- Religious violence viewed as tolerable
(crusader terror VS terrorist jihad)

- Poverty and overpopulation
(overbreeding medieval Europe VS overbreeding Muslim world)

- Breakdown of central order into petty dictatorships
(the fiefdoms and warlords of Europe VS the self-serving dictators and despots in the Muslim world)

- The acceptance that percieved heresy & apostacy are punishable by death
(inquisition, witch burnings VS the killing, threats against apostates, critics of Islam and minorities)

- Dehumanization of outsiders
(its okay to kill a 'saracen/turk' VS its okay to kill jews and western civilians)

- Religious scandals resulting in violence
(many christian inter-sect controversies resulting in violence VS danish-cartoons, pope, shia-sunni internecine killings)

- Supposed sympathy for co-religionist's suffering but ending up killing more of your own than the 'enemy'
(indiscriminate christian crusader slaughter or fellow christians VS al-qaeda/taliban/gia slaughter of more kin than the Americans)

- Religious domination of Education
(catholic church control of literacy and education VS madrassas, islam taught openly as the state religion in nearly every Muslim nation)

- Obsession with holy cities and holy relics
(finding holy grail, freeing jerusalem & holy land VS freeing 'Al-Quds', fury at american presence near mecca and medina)

.....etc. The list of similarities goes on.