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Thread: Is Christianity a Violent Religion?

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    Default Is Christianity a Violent Religion?

    Hi TWCers. This post is dedicated to creating a thorough and comprehensive catalogue of violence and intolerance in Christianity and also to catalogue all historical violence perpetrated by Christians. This is not an anti-Christian post, but something meant to counterbalance the ever present "Islam is Evil" and "Muslims are Animals" threads.

    Please post whatever event or religious dogma from Christian history or the bible that highlights sensational violence and intolerence.


    I will start off with a little story from the Crusades.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------







    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma%27arrat_al-Numan
    http://utah.indymedia.org/news/2003/10/6476_comment.php


    The Cannibals of Ma'arra



    Crusaders out of fanaticism and their religious fervor lead them to view the Muslims as lower than animals.
    The Cannibals of Ma’arra


    From the very beginning, during the Crusades (1096-1100 A.D.), the Crusaders gained themselves a reputation for their barbaric behavior amongst the Muslim inhabitants of Syria, and much of that reputation would appear to have been founded on the horrific events which occurred at Ma’arra al-Numan. Following the fall of Antioch, the Crusaders raided the surrounding countryside in the lean winter months failing to bring in anything like sufficient supplies to feed their large numbers. They laid siege on the town of Ma’arra al-Numan. As many as 20,000 of its inhabitants are reported to have been massacred, despite assurances that their lives would be spared.
    But if such events were common during those times, what happened next was certainly not. The Christian soldiers started to cannibalize Muslim Men, Women and Children. Men and Women were boiled then eaten. Children were barbequed on spits, somewhat like a shish-kabob. In a letter to the Pope one of the Crusader commanders wrote; Radulph of Caen wrote explicitly how:

    "In Ma'arra our troops boiled pagan adults alive in cooking-pots; they impaled children on spits and devoured them grilled."

    For centuries afterwards, the image of the Crusaders as fanatical cannibals lived on in Arabic, Persian, and Turkish literature. Some Arab commentators have even suggested that the behavior of the Crusaders was born not of necessity, but rather out of fanaticism, their religious fervor leading them to view the Muslims as lower than animals. Thus Amin Maalouf, in his book The Crusades through Arab Eyes, points to the words of the Crusader chronicler, Albert of Aix, who wrote:

    "Not only did our troops not shrink from eating dead Turks and Saracens; they also ate dogs!”

    What is interesting to note is that if these Christians were really on a “Holy” mission to oust the “heathen” Muslims…then why did they break Christian morals and values to eat Muslim Men, Women, and Children?

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    Default Re: Is Christianity a Violent Religion?

    Some History from my own country.

    Don Fernando Álvarez de Toledo y Pimentel, 3rd Duke of Alba (es: Don Fernando Álvarez de Toledo y Pimentel, tercer duque de Alba) (October 29, 1507–December 11, 1582) was a Spanish general and governor of the Spanish Netherlands (1567-1573), nicknamed "the Iron Duke" by Protestants of the Low Countries because of his harsh rule and cruelty. Tales of atrocities committed during his military operations in Flanders became part of Dutch and English folklore, forming a new and central component of the Black Legend.

    (...)




    Alba in the Netherlands

    In 1567, Philip, who was a zealous persecutor of Protestants, sent Alba into the Netherlands at the head of an army of 12,000 men, with unlimited powers for the extirpation of heretics. When he arrived he soon showed how much he merited the confidence which his master reposed in him, and instantly erected a tribunal which soon became known to its victims as the "Blood Council," to try all persons who had been engaged in the late commotions that the rule of Philip had excited. During the six years of his governorship, thousands of people were executed. Dutch accounts refer to 18,000; while in Spanish history only a few hundred are mentioned. About 6,000 casulaties can be considered as the most accurate estimate[1]. He imprisoned Lamoral, Count of Egmont and Philip de Montmorency, Count of Hoorn, the two popular leaders of the dissatisfied Dutch nobles, and had them condemned to death even though they were opposed to the Protestants.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fernand...d_Duke_of_Alba



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    Default Re: Is Christianity a Violent Religion?

    The different christian churches (most notably the catholic) has been very violent.

    but the actual teachings of Jesus are very peaceful. Can you find the same level of peaceful messages in the qu'ran? I think not.

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    Default Re: Is Christianity a Violent Religion?

    My general opinion regarding world religions, especially in the case of Islam and Christianity, is that the religions should not be judged based upon the behavior of a couple of their so called "followers". Many people will distort, pervert, and alter religious teaching for their own gains.

    Is Christianity a violent religion? No. Is Islam a violent religion? No. Do they both have their own share of violent histories? Yes.

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    Default Re: Is Christianity a Violent Religion?

    I suspect that Christianism was a violent religion.

    For cultural, political and economic reasons independent from the teachings of Jesus, as well.
    Last edited by Ummon; September 16, 2006 at 08:23 PM.

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    Default Re: Is Christianity a Violent Religion?

    My general opinion regarding world religions, especially in the case of Islam and Christianity, is that the religions should not be judged based upon the behavior of it's so called "followers"
    I agree with that

    Is Christianity a violent religion? No.
    I agree

    Is Islam a violent religion? No
    what is said in the qu'ran isn't exactly peaceful though is it?

    and here I'm not judging islam by its followers, I'm going strictly by the book (literally!) here.

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    Default Re: Is Christianity a Violent Religion?

    Christianity WAS a violent religion.

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    Default Re: Is Christianity a Violent Religion?

    christianity is a moral and righteous religion. all people should follow its values and morals and read the bible at least twice a year.

    all other religions do not matter compared to it and are insignificant.

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    Default Re: Is Christianity a Violent Religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Honor&Glory
    My general opinion regarding world religions, especially in the case of Islam and Christianity, is that the religions should not be judged based upon the behavior of a couple of their so called "followers". Many people will distort, pervert, and alter religious teaching for their own gains.

    Is Christianity a violent religion? No. Is Islam a violent religion? No. Do they both have their own share of violent histories? Yes.
    I agree with you partially. But I believe that monothiestic faith in general breeds intolerance, hatred and eventually violence. The moment you say "this is the only truth" you are basically setting up a faith of intolerance.


    But this thread is not meant to actually say "YES CHRISTIANITY IS EVILL!!111". Its meant to catalogue Christian dogma and acts, and to act as a present reminder to people who get too caught up singling out Islam as the source of all the world's problems.

    So please, this is not a thread for debate. Post historical occurances of Christian cruelty and/or intolerant dogma.

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    Default Re: Is Christianity a Violent Religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bwaho
    The different christian churches (most notably the catholic) has been very violent.

    but the actual teachings of Jesus are very peaceful. Can you find the same level of peaceful messages in the qu'ran? I think not.
    and werent the crusades a extenuation of christ message? They were altruisiticly helping the people. A muslim, by not accepting christ as his personel favor, goes to hell. By converting them they are saving thier souls, even if in the process they destroy thier body.

    Do I actually belive that? No. But it shows that a any message can be twisted into meaning anything in practice. What is written in the bible is not as important as how that writing is interpreted. The bible has been interpreted throughout most of the bibles history in grusomley violent lights. So yes, chirstianity was a violent riligion. Chirsitnaity, however, is no longer violent. One of christianities greatest flaws is how much it depends on interpretation ( as many other riligions do too). Chirsitanity in other words use to follow whatever the average person and the pope thought it should be like. So christanity was teh result of people, and not the other way around as you would expect. That lead to chirsinaity being violent while the leaders of the riligion were violent. The pope who started the crusades, for example, was in the middle of mediaval italy, which was made of many warring states and could be said to have lead to the papacies secretive and politicly militaristic structure during those times. Today, the average ceuropean ( which is synonomous with the average christian if you consider American's european) is no longer the ruthless profiteer that europeans to be back in the 10th-20 centuries, and the calming of the people lead to the calming of the riligion and its interpretation.

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    Default Re: Is Christianity a Violent Religion?

    The following is the text and summary of the force expulsion and conversion of the Spanish Jews after the conquest of the last Moorish (Muslim) kingdom in Spain.

    Note that the Jews had been living in relative harmony under Muslim/Moorish rule for the last 400 years. Also note that after the Jews were expelled the Muslim Ottoman Sultan sent a ship to rescue those Spanish Jews and gave them safe homes in Turkey, Greece and the Levant (palestine, syria, lebanon).

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhambra_decree

    Alhambra decree

    The Alhambra Decree was issued in 1492 by the Catholic Monarchs of Spain (Isabella of Castile and Ferdinand II of Aragon, married in 1469), following the final triumph over the Moors after the fall of Granada. The decree ordered the expulsion of all Jews from Spain and its territories and possessions by July 31, 1492 (Tisha B'Av).

    It is as a result of this expulsion that the Sephardim (Spanish Jews) dispersed throughout the Maghreb and south-eastern Europe, intermingling in many places with the Mizrachi (Oriental Jews) communities.




    King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella, by the grace of God, King and Queen of Castile, León, Aragon and other dominions of the crown - to the prince Juan, to dukes, marquees, counts, the holy orders, priors, knight commanders, lords of the castles, cavaliers, and to all Jews, men and women of whatever age, and to anyone else this letter may concern - health and grace unto you.

    You well know that in our dominion, there are certain bad Christians that judaised and committed apostasy against our Holy Catholic faith, much of it the cause of communications between Jews and Christians. Therefore, in the year 1480, we ordered that the Jews be separated from the cities and towns of our domains and that they be given separate quarters, hoping that by such separation the situation would be remedied. And we ordered that and an Inquisition be established in such domains; and in twelve years it has functioned, the Inquisition has found many guilty persons. Furthermore, we are informed by the Inquisition and others that the great harm done to the Christians persists, and it continues because of the conversations and communications that they have with the Jews, such Jews trying by whatever manner to subvert our holy Catholic faith and trying to draw faithful Christians away from their beliefs.

    These Jews instruct these Christians in the ceremonies and observances of their Law, circumcising their children, and giving them books with which to pray, and declaring unto them the days of fasting, and meeting with them to teach them the histories of their Law, notifying them when to expect Passover and how to observe it, giving them the unleavened bread and ceremonially prepared meats, and instructing them in things from which they should abstain, both with regard to food items and other things requiring observances of their Law of Moses, making them understand that there is no other law or truth besides it. All of which then is clear that, on the basis of confessions from such Jews as well as those perverted by them, that it has resulted in great damage and detriment of our holy Catholic faith.

    And because we knew that the true remedy of such damages and difficulties lay in the severing of all communications between the said Jews with the Christians and in sending them forth from all our reigns, we sought to content ourselves with ordering the said Jews from all the cities and villages and places of Andalusia where it appeared that they had done major damage, believing that this would suffice so that those from other cities and villages and places in our reigns and holdings would cease to commit the aforesaid. And because we have been informed that neither this, nor the justices done for some of the said Jews found very culpable in the said crimes and transgressions against our holy Catholic faith, has been a complete remedy to obviate and to correct such opprobrium and offense to the Christian faith and religion; because every day it appears that the said Jews increase in continuing their evil and harmful purposes wherever they reside and converse; and because there is no place left whereby to more offend our holy faith, as much as those which God has protected to this day as in those already affected, it is left for this Holy Mother Church to mend and reduce the matter to its previous state inasmuch as, because of our frailty of humanity, it could occur that we could succumb to the diabolical temptation that continually wars against us so easily if its principal cause were not removed, which would be to expel the said Jews from the kingdom. Because whenever a grave and detestable crime is committed by some members of a given group, it is reasonable that the group be dissolved or annihilated, the minors for the majors being punished one for the other; and that those who pervert the good and honest living on the cities and villages and who by their contagion could harm others, be expelled from the midst the people, still yet for other minor causes, that would be of harm to the Republic, and all the more so for the major of these crimes, dangerous and contagious as it is.

    Therefore, with the council and advice of the eminent men and cavaliers of our reign, and of other persons of knowledge and conscience of our Supreme Council, after much deliberation, it is agreed and resolved that all Jews and Jewesses be ordered to leave our kingdoms, and that they never be allowed to return.

    And we further order in this edict that all Jews and Jewesses of whatever age that reside in our domain and territories, that they leave with their sons and daughters. Their servants and relatives, large and small, of whatever age, by the end of July of this year, and that they dare not return to our lands, not so much as to take a step on them not trespass upon them in any other manner whatsoever. Any Jew who does not comply with this edict and is to be found in our kingdom and domains, or who return to the kingdom in any manner, will incur punishment by death and confiscation of all their belongings.

    We further order that no person in our kingdom of whatever station or noble status hide or keep or defend any Jew or Jewess, either publicly or secretly, from the end of July onwards, in their homes or elsewhere in our reign, upon punishment of loss of their belongings, vassals, fortresses, and hereditary privileges.

    So that the said Jews may dispose of their household and belongings in the given time period, for the present we provide our assurance of royal protection and security so that, until the end of the month of July, they may sell and exchange their belongings and furniture and other items, and to dispose of them freely as they wish; and that during said time, no one is to do them harm or injury or injustice to their persons or to their goods, which is contrary to justice, and which shall incur the punishment that befalls those who violate our royal security.

    Thus we grant permission to the said Jews and Jewsses to take out their goods and belongings out of our reigns, either by sea or by land, with the condition that they not take out either gold or silver or minted money or any other items prohibited by the laws of the kingdom.

    Therefore, we order all councilors, justices, magistrates. cavaliers, shield-bearers, officials, good men of the city of Burgos and of other cities and villages of our reigns and dominions, and all our vassals and subjects, that they observe and comply with this letter and all that is contained in it, and that they give all the help and favor that is necessary for its execution, subject to punishment by our sovereign grace and by confiscation of all their goods and offices for our royal statehouse.

    And so that this may come to the notice of all, and so that no one may pretend ignorance, we order that this edict be proclaimed in all the plazas and usual meeting places of any given city; and that in the major cities and villages of the diocese, that it be done by the town crier in the presence of the public scribe. and that neither one nor the other should do the contrary of what was desired, subject to the punishment by our sovereign grace and deprivation of their offices and by confiscation of their goods to whosoever does the contrary. And we further order that evidence be provided to the court, in the manner of signed testimony, regarding the manner in which the edict is being carried out.

    Given in this city of Granada on the thirty-first day of March in the year of our Lord Jesus Christ 1492.

    Signed, I, the King, I the Queen, Juan de Coloma, Secretary of the King and Queen, which I have written by order of our Majesties.

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    Default Re: Is Christianity a Violent Religion?

    I am starting to wonder: exactly, after we already stated that Christianism was a violent religion, what is the purpose of this thread?
    Last edited by Ummon; September 16, 2006 at 08:24 PM.

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    Default Re: Is Christianity a Violent Religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by mirage41
    But this thread is not meant to actually say "YES CHRISTIANITY IS EVILL!!111". Its meant to catalogue Christian dogma and acts, and to act as a present reminder to people who get too caught up singling out Islam as the source of all the world's problems.

    So please, this is not a thread for debate. Post historical occurances of Christian cruelty and/or intolerant dogma.
    Woulden't it just be better to just search after the Crusades on Google or Wikipedia? :hmmm:

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    Default Re: Is Christianity a Violent Religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by hekk
    Woulden't it just be better to just search after the Crusades on Google or Wikipedia? :hmmm:
    Yeah, but its always nice to have a continuously and regularly update thread to act as a 'library' of Christian atrocities. Just so no one forgets.

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    Default Re: Is Christianity a Violent Religion?

    Oh but rest assured, no one forgets here: the problem is, today, exactly, how does this relate with the Christian message and behaviour? Additionally, how come that westerners here have all immediately said that Christianism was a violent religion? Nobody protested, or felt insulted. Finally, was that the only violent religion, at the time? Or are you implying that it was the most violent?

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    Default Re: Is Christianity a Violent Religion?

    Most westerners are thoroughly secularized and their religious ideas have been thoroughly neutered and watered down. Islam is religion that is 600 years younger. I hope that in my lifetime that serious secularization will take place in the Muslim world too.

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    Default Re: Is Christianity a Violent Religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by mirage41
    Most westerners are thoroughly secularized and their religious ideas have been thoroughly neutered and watered down. Islam is religion that is 600 years younger. I hope that in my lifetime that serious secularization will take place in the Muslim world too.
    I consider myself religious, yet I do not go around burning mosques because I don't like the message of Islam...

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    Richard the Lionheart's Avatar Chihaku
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    Default Re: Is Christianity a Violent Religion?

    Well there is violence in the New and Old Testaments. :hmmm:

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    Default Re: Is Christianity a Violent Religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Honor&Glory
    Well there is violence in the New and Old Testaments. :hmmm:
    That must mean that Christianity encourages violence!

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    Default Re: Is Christianity a Violent Religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Honor&Glory
    Is Christianity a violent religion?
    Of course it is. Christianity descended from Judaism and Judaism was one of the most violent religions on earth, where it was strongly encouraged to slaughter every heathen man, woman, and child. Just read the various lurid details in the Old Testament of Israelites sacking cities, slaughtering civilians and otherwise wreaking bloody havoc like football hooligans with serious anger management issues (but with divine right mixed in). In fact, an Israelite king was punished by God for failing his religious duty to slaughter every man, woman, and child and burn the city to the ground.

    So yes. The root of Christianity is extremely violent and Christianity has had violence within it since its conception - Christianity just learned it would need to reform before it was completely shunned by popular society in the 18th and 19th centuries, when people started to frown on that sort of thing.

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