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Thread: Better Cavalry v3.00 (updated 29/09/13)

  1. #1

    Icon1 Better Cavalry v3.00 (updated 29/09/13)

    This mod is discontinued. All my recent updates are being put on Ars Gratia Artis:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ated-14-10-13)

    There you will find all the changes to cavalry, elephants and units.




    This mod tries to rebalance cavalry in the game to make horse infantry worth in comparison to infantry and not just an "harassing" force.

    Changes:

    Re-balanced cavalry as a whole(new). Now in normal circumstances melee cavalry beats infantry, shock cavalry beats melee cavalry (but it's weaker against infantry) and anti-cav infantry beats both; moreover the longer the weapon the more advantage cavalry has against infantry. It may be not very historically accurate (apart for the weapon bonus) for the period but gameplay speaking it is the best approach, hands down (and how previous titles worked). After very many testings nothing beats this balance and renders certain factions that have shock cavalry more powerful in cavalry and every unit have its meaning. Yes, historical fidelity is important, but gameplay balance is even more and the way CA made Cavalry in this iteration didn't have much rhyme or reason: melee cavalry was half anti-cav or not depending on the weapon used, shock cavalry was much weaker than melee cavalry so it had not much place, anti-cav infantry had no place in the same way because infantry did beat cavalry no matter what.

    Increased charge bonus for all cavalry units.
    As it was in vanilla many times horse infantry had less charge than melee one, and this didn't make any sense. Now charge bonus is balanced both on type of cavalry (missile, melee, shock) and type of weapon used (with lance cavalry having the greater bonus).

    Increased melee defense for shock cavalry.
    In vanilla Rome II shock cavalry had really too low melee defense bonus and even with the changes in patch 3 beta shock cavalry routs really too early just for this. Now shock cavalry cannot still sustain prolonged melee but at last it will be able to not rout until you can do something about the issue by retreating or reinforcing.

    Increased bonus vs. infantry for melee cavalry. In vanilla melee cavalry had a very little bonus vs. infantry. If you do sum this to the default very little charge and the fact that cavalry has much less men than infantry it's easy to understand how melee cavalry cannot stand against even average infantry in melee in this game. Now melee cavalry cannot still stand toe to toe with good/elite infantry (as it should be, given the limitations of the period, apart for Cataphracts) but at last it will be able to hold its own against average one.

    Adjusted armour bonuses for cavalry.
    This was really odd as in vanilla cavalry didn't scale type of armor with type (light, medium, heavy, very heavy, super heavy) while infantry did; in almost all cases (bar one or two) even very heavy cavalry still remained with at max leather armor. I very much think it is a bug because it doesn't make any sense, especially for the fact that infantry instead scale armor properly. This is another motive why (added the the points above) cavalry is so subpar in this game in comparison to infantry.

    Reworked Cataphracts(update).
    Now they carry shields and are hands-down the best cavalry in the game. In previous versions I reworked them as melee cavalry but with the most recent changes I reverted them to shock cavalry becaue there is no more need to have them as melee cavalry and so that they are even more specialized than before (in the fact that they are also specialized anti-cav now being shock cavalry).

    Revisited all speeds of run/acceleration/deceleration for types of cavalry.
    Now for example super heavy cavalry (as Cataphracts) will have take much more to stop after a charge and they will many times go "aboard" through the ranks, as it should be, given the mass.

    Added armor bonuses to mounts depending on weight and mass. In melee very armored horses made no difference whatsoever from very light ones. This is now corrected. This change includes also armored elephants.

    Missile cavalry has more range but with less accuracy. The range of missile cavalry in the game was very very low in confront to infantry. This added to the less men made missile cavalry much less powerful than missile infantry. Now they both have good points and drawbacks and are more balanced.

    Steppe and Estearn missile cavalry gets bonuses on accuracy. The steppe and eastern horse archers were known to be the best missile cavalry of the era, so it is appropriate they get a little boost on accuracy in confront to other missile cavalry.

    Anti-Cavalry weapons bonuses increased.
    With the changes in the mod cavalry becomes more powerful and for this it is indispensable a way to balance the increase in power. Now units that carry anti-cav weaponry have greater bonuses against them so they can counteract cavalry better. This in turns make the gameplay more intense and balanced because cavalry is more powerful but anti-cav units will make short work of them even more than before.

    Balanced factions cavalry bonuses. Averni now have no more the best all around cavalry (on top of the best all around infantry). For example the German Noble Riders are now the 2nd more powerful cavalry (after Cataphracts), no more Noble Horses. Also Praetorians are more powerful than Noble Horses now (albeit only slightly).


    Compatibility:
    Use this mod with any other Battle Mod around without too many problems. It is true that the tables will override some of the ones existing in them but the tables changed are anyway very little modified by all Battle Mods currently available so you will have no issues.

    Installation:
    Extract the pack (with 7-Zip or Winrar), chose the compatibility version you like (vanilla game with no mods, Radious, Improved War or Close Combat) and then put its content inside the "Data" dir under the Rome II installation folder.

    Notes:
    You will notice that there are no more various compatibility versions in the packed file. This is because with the new changes there is no more need. These changes will just override those of other Battle Mods because I've seen that almost nobody of them anyway changes drastically units attributes, so there was no point to have 3 different versions for just a single digit change. It will be compatible with other Battle Mods and even make them better.

    If you are an user of Armour Reworked just use this mod along it, it will override the default tables with these ones.

    If you liked more the old version (prior 3.0) you can find it here. The difference is that cavalry is not re-balanced for type (it is the same mess as in vanilla) and Cataphracts are melee cavalry plus changes in armour coming from Armour Reworked that make units more balanced are not there so stats are sometimes strange (as Cataphracts having strong melee defense even with a very high armour).

    History changes:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    v3.00: Major update. Re-balanced all cavalry units to work as in precedent titles because this is by far the best approach. Melee cav beats infantry, Shock Cav is the anti-cav cavalry and spear/lance infantry is the anti-cav infantry. Updated Cataphracts with the new changes so they are reverted to shock Cav.
    v2.79: Tweaked stats of missile cavalry.
    v2.78: Had to balance again everything because on testing I discovered that the changes in CC to cohesion made certain changes in this mod too powerful. Also added more cohesion by defaul in the vanilla mod.
    v2.76: Resolved bug that cause correct radius (the value to not cause bobbling) to not register properly in Close Combat compatibility version
    v2.75: Further tweaking of stats for more balance
    v2.70: Made a vanilla version for people not using mods. Further balance of stats.
    v2.50: Released Close Combat and Improved War compatible version. Added accuracy bonuses to steppe and eastern horse archers. Reworked again shields of Cataphracts; now they are more in line to my view of them.
    v2.10: Changed type of shield on Cataphracts. Lowered slightly elite cavalry melee defense and attack bonuses.
    v2.01: Averni cavalry bonuses lowered.
    v2.00: Reworked almost completely all stats and reworked cataphracts
    v1.00: First version of the mod.
    Last edited by Selea; October 14, 2013 at 03:28 AM. Reason: mod update

  2. #2

    Default Re: Better Cavalry v2 (updated 21/09/2013)

    Forgot to mention two other changes:

    Added armor to mounts depending on weight and mass. In melee very armored horses made no difference at all in this respect towards very light ones. Now this is corrected. This includes armored elephants that have now added armor.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Better Cavalry v2 (updated 21/09/2013)

    Cool. I'm glad you chose to make cataphracts melee cavalry, that's a change I was thinking of putting in myself. Gonna go try this out.

  4. #4
    hooahguy14's Avatar Ducenarius
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    Default Re: Better Cavalry v2 (updated 21/09/2013)

    Great job, cant wait to test it out- do you know if its compatible with the Yarkis battle mod? Currently Im using the first version of Yarkis's battle mod?
    On the Path to the Streets of Gold: A Rome II Suebi AAR
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


  5. #5

    Default Re: Better Cavalry v2 (updated 21/09/2013)

    Quote Originally Posted by hooahguy14 View Post
    Great job, cant wait to test it out- do you know if its compatible with the Yarkis battle mod? Currently Im using the first version of Yarkis's battle mod?
    No, with the battle mod is not compatible, sadly. I took the most popular battle mod (Radious) to be compatible with for now, but in the future it can be I will make other battle mods compatibility versions. The mod doesn't change very many tables but sadly it changes at last one that all battle mods change (land_units) and there is no way to change only individual lines so I will have to take all those other battle mods and apply the changes to them. A lot of work but doable.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Better Cavalry v2 (updated 21/09/2013)

    Cohort Evocati changed to heavy spearmen. Its a bug xD

  7. #7

    Default Re: Better Cavalry v2 (updated 21/09/2013)

    Quote Originally Posted by wookie13 View Post
    Cohort Evocati changed to heavy spearmen. Its a bug xD
    No, it's not a bug, it is a change that has been done by Radious. I made this mod compatible with his first of all because it is the most popular mod out there and I knew that if I didn't make a version compatible nobody would have downloaded it.

    Very soon I will make a version that works with vanilla without any mods then I will add some other mods compatibility.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Better Cavalry v2 (updated 21/09/2013)

    First however I have to reach 25 posts so I will be able to update the thread and add the links, oh well...

  9. #9

    Default Re: Better Cavalry v2 (updated 21/09/2013)

    Hey i love this and i want to try your mod but im a noob when it comes to them and thefore i want to ask if this is compatible with close combat mod?
    ty<3

  10. #10

    Default Re: Better Cavalry v2 (updated 21/09/2013)

    Quote Originally Posted by weex88 View Post
    Hey i love this and i want to try your mod but im a noob when it comes to them and thefore i want to ask if this is compatible with close combat mod?
    ty<3
    Nope yet. For now it is compatible only with Radious battle mod.
    Sadly as it is now Rome II is not very mod friendly for what it concerns compatibility with various mods. Usually you can just alter single lines and change name of the table and the game will recognize the changes and update only them but not with Rome II, you have to change ALL the table and this turns compatibility between mods a nightmare since the tables used are almost always the same.

  11. #11
    craziii's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Better Cavalry v2 (updated 21/09/2013)

    I like this mod, now Cataphracts will finally be useful. eastern faction players would love you for this
    fear is helluva drug
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    “The only rule that ever made sense to me I learned from a history, not an economics, professor at Wharton. "Fear," he used to say, "fear is the most valuable commodity in the universe." That blew me away. "Turn on the TV," he'd say. "What are you seeing? People selling their products? No. People selling the fear of you having to live without their products." freakin' A, was he right. Fear of aging, fear of loneliness, fear of poverty, fear of failure. Fear is the most basic emotion we have. Fear is primal. Fear sells.” WWZ

    Have you had your daily dose of fear yet? craziii
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

  12. #12
    Kymmuriel's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Better Cavalry v2 (updated 21/09/2013)

    Swwet bro, really love how it works now, now my Carthaginian noble and Scutarri cathaphracts do some great jobs on the mobs of plebeain No seriously awesome mod, everyone should just taste it, it is a game experience you have to feel, Cav with your mod has it rightfull place in the era battles

  13. #13

    Default Re: Better Cavalry v2 (updated 21/09/2013)

    Quote Originally Posted by craziii View Post
    I like this mod, now Cataphracts will finally be useful. eastern faction players would love you for this
    I'm one of those myself

    I am always been a cavalry player: In Medieval II I always took France, in Shogun I always played Takeda and so on, so after I got Rome II I started a campaign as Parthia and jumped immediately on the research of the technology for Cataphracts. It was a bad surprise when I finally got them seeing the status CA reduced them. The most powerful cavalry of the era (and much probably even one of the most powerful units bar elephants) rendered one of the weakest units (for the price) in all the game.

    Then I tried other factions with good cavalry, as Averni or Epirus and while in this case it was better cavalry where still so underpowered in comparison to elite infantry as to be just filler. I don't think there's need in this game to have cavalry at all an in fact almost all MP player use full melee units with at most 1-2 cavalry just to harass the enemy and nothing more. It's a shame to watch.

    So I put myself to work and tried my best to recover the issue. I restarted just now a Parthia campaign and it is all another thing.

  14. #14
    Kymmuriel's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Better Cavalry v2 (updated 21/09/2013)

    Quote Originally Posted by Selea View Post
    I'm one of those myself

    I am always been a cavalry player: In Medieval II I always took France, in Shogun I always played Takeda and so on, so after I got Rome II I started a campaign as Parthia and jumped immediately on the research of the technology for Cataphracts. It was a bad surprise when I finally got them seeing the status CA reduced them. The most powerful cavalry of the era (and much probably even one of the most powerful units bar elephants) rendered one of the weakest units (for the price) in all the game.

    Then I tried other factions with good cavalry, as Averni or Epirus and while in this case it was better cavalry where still so underpowered in comparison to elite infantry as to be just filler. I don't think there's need in this game to have cavalry at all an in fact almost all MP player use full melee units with at most 1-2 cavalry just to harass the enemy and nothing more. It's a shame to watch.

    So I put myself to work and tried my best to recover the issue. I restarted just now a Parthia campaign and it is all another thing.
    OOOOhh, you should try the carthaginian campaign, tried the hard asses faction to boot, and Carthage has it rought with the Radious mod, naval mod, get the aditionnals carthage units + the decals for the carthage inf shields, then when u begin to pop up ure carthaginian cav, + the iberian cataphract, that then u trown by packs of 4 in the field, and that u see their effectiveness with ure shcok troops supports, you get this feeling, im sure most of the cav guy has tasted it, when u see all ure cavs charging on the same line, then trample over all, its just amazing.

    Well Cav will still die if u charge upfront any hoplite, profesional or noble lancer units but omagad feels so good

  15. #15

    Default Re: Better Cavalry v2 (updated 21/09/2013)

    I made a little update. I reworked a little Averni cavalry because Averni are a pretty overpowered faction. They have the better overall infantry AND the better overall cavalry (at last until this mod with Cataphracts). Now this is changed and Averni have not more the 2nd best cavalry after Parthia (and Greek states) with Cataphracts. Germanic cavalry with Noble Raiders and either Rome Pretorians (albeit these last only marginally) are more powerful than Noble Horses.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Better Cavalry v2 (updated 21/09/2013)

    Any chance the texture for your cataphracts shield can be changed to the eastern general one or something less...poor? Its funny how Cataphracts run around with full llamanar armor and carry large wood boards while Median calvary carry much better shields.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Better Cavalry v2 (updated 21/09/2013)

    Lol. For once CA didn't make cav into "I WIN" button and users created that button anyways.
    The answer for all your "didn't make any sense" and "bonus too low" is STIRRUPS, or rather absence of them in the ancient world. Rider without stirrups and on a saddle offering no support isn't supposed to be efficient in melee. You cant swing a weapon too hard if the inertia can knock you off the horse. And you cant charge too hard for the same reason. In the vanilla the cavalry has to be used carefully, against flanks or rear, against skirmishers etc. You've made them back into medieval knights. No thinking needed - just charge anything that isn't set spears to win.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Better Cavalry v2 (updated 21/09/2013)

    Quote Originally Posted by Topsoldier99 View Post
    Any chance the texture for your cataphracts shield can be changed to the eastern general one or something less...poor? Its funny how Cataphracts run around with full llamanar armor and carry large wood boards while Median calvary carry much better shields.
    Sadly for eastern troops there are no meshes for metal shields. I would have to take other faction's shields or either create them for myself.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Better Cavalry v2 (updated 21/09/2013)

    Quote Originally Posted by Slit View Post
    Lol. For once CA didn't make cav into "I WIN" button and users created that button anyways.
    The answer for all your "didn't make any sense" and "bonus too low" is STIRRUPS, or rather absence of them in the ancient world. Rider without stirrups and on a saddle offering no support isn't supposed to be efficient in melee. You cant swing a weapon too hard if the inertia can knock you off the horse. And you cant charge too hard for the same reason. In the vanilla the cavalry has to be used carefully, against flanks or rear, against skirmishers etc. You've made them back into medieval knights. No thinking needed - just charge anything that isn't set spears to win.
    Of what the hell are you talking about? Medieval knights are coming straight from cataphracts of this historical period. Cataphracts in the battle of Cannae were able to win 4 times the number of infantry Roman armies. Their charge was phenomenal and they were phenomenal in melee.

    You want to pass as the historian but you don't seem to have much knowledge about it.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Better Cavalry v2 (updated 21/09/2013)

    As for just "charging anything that isn't set spears to win" that's not right at all. Melee cavalry also with this mod cannot fight with elite melee infantry troops, with the only exception of cataphracts. Try to do a 1 vs 1 battle of Noble Riders (the 2nd best cavalry now in this mod) against Oathsworn or Hoplites (or Thracian Nobles or whatever else elite melee) and then come back, want you?

    The only exception is Cataphracts because they SHOULD be able to do so.

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