Test BAI path 3 beta

**Humble Warrior** · September 22, 2013, 03:38 AM

The more I see of this, the more I think of the smug face of that AI programmer on utube. This is why, I don`t as a rule watch utube or podcasts featuring members of CA because then I might associate a face with my distrust of CA\SEGA. Which I want to avoid.

I mean, how can someone show his face and say the AI is so much better than previous Total Wars like he`s your best friend when it plainly IS NOT? There`s no other word for it then pure lies.

**Shaggy1973** · September 22, 2013, 05:06 AM

Originally Posted by Humble Warrior

The more I see of this, the more I think of the smug face of that AI programmer on utube. This is why, I don`t as a rule watch utube or podcasts featuring members of CA because then I might associate a face with my distrust of CA\SEGA. Which I want to avoid.

I mean, how can someone show his face and say the AI is so much better than previous Total Wars like he`s your best friend when it plainly IS NOT? There`s no other word for it then pure lies.

Nice way to hijack a productive thread with nothing more than negativity... par for the course tho really eh HW?

At others, looks like some interesting work, looking forward to seeing the results carried into a mod

**Humble Warrior** · September 22, 2013, 07:04 AM

Originally Posted by Shaggy1973

Nice way to hijack a productive thread with nothing more than negativity... par for the course tho really eh HW?

At others, looks like some interesting work, looking forward to seeing the results carried into a mod

Wrong.
Considering I was invited here, and I`m testing the AI too and along with sieges (which the AI is also awful at) I think it`s important we don`t forget what we were promised. So can it.

At others:
One of my first findings is Siege AI when facing a WALL basically consists of attack nearest gate and keep going until it meets the flag. It never uses alternative gates to attack from 2 sides or siege weapons like Towers.

Hopefully I`ll have more details later.

**husserlTW** · September 22, 2013, 08:26 AM

Hey Luntik, good to see you around! After Darth's "retirement" we need more than ever good AI modders. If there is a way I can help send the word.

Trying to decode BAI intentions, I think BAI is trying to do 2 things while advances: First concentrates most of the melee power to the opponent sides or/and second in specific centre spots plus flanking (if the later is indeed BAI intention and not a side effect of the former, which more likely happens). This creates gap(s) in its centre, that is why it keeps some units behind in reserve while the (ridiculously) overpowered missile units help also to defend these gaps. The second is to attack by angle to confuse player and tempt him to create one or more gaps in his centre, if he rushes to support with his centre units the heavily attacked points. This strategy will be successful if the flanking or/and the attack in the 2 sides is successful, as the defender will be "rolled" by both sides while receiving attacks by the reserved units in his open centre.

I can "see" a constant development of the flanking manoeuvres that Jack Lusted introduced in his Terra Expugnandae for Rome I and Lands to Conquer for M2TW, as a modder (in those days) and next as CA stuff. The same time BAI is trying to deal with its ghosts: units in a "chicken run", messed formation, attacks on opponent units they should 't (e.g. cavalry on spearmen, light on heavy units, etc.).

As I said these may be the intentions. Because in action there are many problems, though I have to admit that vanilla BAI is much better than expected for a new Total War game (never took series the marketing announcements). I like for example the way it uses cavalry units. I think that the main problem is that flanking and the attacks on sides priorities, produce a confusing break of AI formation. I'll agree with you that confusion increases with the variety of the army composition.

Maybe I am wrong but the result is that after a couple of battles the player can easily find the right strategy to beat AI (e.g. with varieties of Themistocles "H" formation (Marathon battle), or even with varieties of the Pelopidas oblique phalanx used by Thebes crashing Spartans. In any case BAI gaps and by angle attacks are deadly mistakes for a formation.

**Magnar** · September 22, 2013, 04:03 PM

From the open field battles ive played, the ai has kept formation quite well... unitil a few seconds before reaching my lines, then it blobs up before attacking. But its what ive come to expect and I havent noticed it any better pre patch 3. I hope it gets fixed or we are able to mod better behavior in... Its not all bad though, ive seen decent blob flanks as well, where the ai forms a blob and then slowly flanks.

**Magnar** · September 22, 2013, 04:09 PM

From the open field battles ive played, the ai has kept formation quite well... unitil a few seconds before reaching my lines, then it blobs up before attacking. But its what ive come to expect and I havent noticed it any better pre patch 3. I hope it gets fixed or we are able to mod better behavior in... Its not all bad though, ive seen decent blob flanks as well, where the ai forms a blob and then slowly flanks.

**cevap** · September 22, 2013, 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by Humble Warrior

Wrong.
Considering I was invited here, and I`m testing the AI too and along with sieges (which the AI is also awful at) I think it`s important we don`t forget what we were promised. So can it.

At others:
One of my first findings is Siege AI when facing a WALL basically consists of attack nearest gate and keep going until it meets the flag. It never uses alternative gates to attack from 2 sides or siege weapons like Towers.

Hopefully I`ll have more details later.

Are you joking, the siege AI is the best! I put my units on the gates one on top of the other, put the battle at 3x speed and take a nap.
But seriously CA needs to fix this asap, Im deserting my 7th campaign because I lost all interest again because of the BAI. Its no fun fighting a retard.

**DARTH VADER** · September 23, 2013, 10:54 AM

What I see from images (have not played myself yet the game...) is that flanking code has been overdone.
Flanking should happen from more natural causes and paths and not as a basic aim of AI because eventually it can confuse itself very often.
So here I see AI trying to do flanking maneuvers too much, dividing his army, picking randomly units for this purpose and eventually making mess and blobs.

Just my humble comment and tip about this... could not stand any more.

**Luntik** · September 23, 2013, 12:08 PM

Hi Darth!

I think the explanation is simple error in coding.

PS

before patch 3 beta the AI in these tests behave better, + responded well to moding.
[click image to enlarge]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

in images - vanilla + my modest modification (13.09.2013 before patch 3 beta)

**DARTH VADER** · September 23, 2013, 12:50 PM

Hi Luntik, long time to speak. If there are values in db open that affect flanking I would suggest to minimize them. Just a speculation.

**Master Necromancer** · September 23, 2013, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by DARTH VADER

Hi Luntik, long time to speak. If there are values in db open that affect flanking I would suggest to minimize them. Just a speculation.

Hello Darth, it is a pleasure to see you post here.

I fully agree with over flanking, but do you think there is a solution for when the AI decides to attack and chase a single scout cavalry with it's entire army?

**hellblazer** · September 23, 2013, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by Master Necromancer

Hello Darth, it is a pleasure to see you post here.

I fully agree with over flanking, but do you think there is a solution for when the AI decides to attack and chase a single scout cavalry with it's entire army?

This still happens in Rome 2? It broke cav in Shogun 2 because you could use one unit while beseiged and have 80% of the attacking army chase your cav around instead of going over your walls to get your flag. The Ai should use one or two units to stay between the attacking stack and the cav but stick close to the attacking column.

**Master Necromancer** · September 23, 2013, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by hellblazer

This still happens in Rome 2? It broke cav in Shogun 2 because you could use one unit while beseiged and have 80% of the attacking army chase your cav around instead of going over your walls to get your flag. The Ai should use one or two units to stay between the attacking stack and the cav but stick close to the attacking column.

It happens in open field battles, to the AI the flag is GOD and it doesn't care about anything except getting to the

ing flag, another annoyance...

**hellblazer** · September 27, 2013, 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by panzerschreck

I read on the official forum that a player says that to keep their formation in patch 3, units, as soon as they have an ennemy turning them, on their side were turning and turning, trying to face the new ennemy, forgotting the one that is in front of them. I saw that since the beginning with the bowmen, they turn each time they changed their target, even when it's unecessary, loosing time in their defense and being charged by the other before having fired one single arrow. I read a lot of posts since yesterday on various forums, it seems that a lot of people have problems with patch 3: more lags, strange behaviours for units etc.)

The balancing of unit formation cohesion vs. individual initiative in Shogun 2 was great. Why can't they go with that by default and give us back our guard mode button?

This madness of streamlining the UI and options to the point where they take out game functionality is frustrating. i.e removing one way military access or determining how many turns it should last; 5 turns, 10 turns, 20 turns, or indefinitely.

Is there a way to edit a file to make the units not continually turn to face the opposing units center?