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Thread: Units that need to be edited

  1. #1
    Quinn Inuit's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Units that need to be edited

    Some of you may remember my numerous attempts to produce altered EDUs for RTRPE to remove most of the two hp units. I eventually gave up because the new development versions were coming out so fast.

    Now, though, we seem to be approaching a truly finished (and polished!) product. So I thought I'd solicit suggestions and do one heck of a unit re-balancing for a mini-mod. Think something should be altered? Post it here. Think something that's posted shouldn't be altered? Post it here. Got a relative in Nigeria with money troubles? Don't we all.


    General question:
    In RTRPE, do all hoplites and hoplite levies have shield wall, or is that a result of Candel's mod?


    Here's what I'm going to be altering:

    In general:
    Most of the 60-80 man (on the setting where a normal hoplite unit has 120) units will get pushed up to 120. Small uber-units are a neat idea, but I've run tests and they get pwned one-on-one by a normal mercenary hoplite unit. I'll be pushing up their upkeep and recruitment costs proportionally.

    Pontic Nobles:
    The description says they are l33t, but they are not l33t. We can make them l33t.
    Besides increasing their size+cost, I'm going to give them attack/def. stats = Spartans -1.

    Hoplite levy:
    I'm taking away their shield wall. I love these guys, really, and I used them with shield wall to beat off a much better Carthaginian army in street fighting (that was a great battle!). But they seem too untrained to be able to do a shield wall realistically.

    Corinthian and Athenian hoplites:
    Increasing unit size, but not cost (they're already expensive). These guys should be something special if they're going to be in there at all. Otherwise, why bother? I say we claim that they're the especially well-armed and -trained upper classes of those unusually large cities.

    Eastern HI:
    Increasing unit size+cost. It should be hard for the Armenians and whoever else can make these things to get access to troops that fight like that.

    Carth. Sacred Band (the Beatles?):
    Doubling unit size, reducing hp to 1.

    Poeni Citizen Inf.:
    Increasing unit size. No increase in recruitment cost, but substantial increase in upkeep. If these guys were only called up in emergencies, let's alter their costs to make them easy to recruit but difficult to maintain for any length of time.

    All Hypaspistai:
    I saw in another thread that I'm not the only one who really, really hates seeing full armies of these things show up from the AI. Let's fix that by doubling their unit size, halving their hp, increasing recruitment costs by 25%, and upkeep by 33-50%.

    Spartan Hoplites:
    Leave as is. I want anyone using this mini-mod (at minimum, me) to still have a "Oh, $#@)&%!" reaction whenever they see Spartans, just like generals did back in the day.

    Mercenary units:
    Increase costs of all merc. cavalry. In most cases, it's substantially more cost-effective to buy mercs than it is to use your native cav, even when you're someone like Pontus with some reasonably good native lancers.

    Actually, how do I increase the costs of all mercenary units, or at least most? The units that are designed as mercs are usually fine (Eastern Mercs or Samnite Mercs, for instance), but the mercenary regular units are IMO too cheap.

    Bastarnae:
    I can't figure out how to double this unit's size without getting error messages, and they're hard enough to get that I'm ok with leaving them as is.

    Roman Regular Inf.:
    Should we increase the upkeep and/or cost on these to force the computer to use more alae?


    Any thoughts?
    RTR Platinum Team Apprentice, RTR VII Team Member, and Extended Realism Mod Team Coordinator. Proud member of House Wilpuri under the patronage of Pannonian

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  2. #2

    Default Re: Units that need to be edited

    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn Inuit
    Some of you may remember my numerous attempts to produce altered EDUs for RTRPE to remove most of the two hp units. I eventually gave up because the new development versions were coming out so fast.

    Now, though, we seem to be approaching a truly finished (and polished!) product. So I thought I'd solicit suggestions and do one heck of a unit re-balancing for a mini-mod. Think something should be altered? Post it here. Think something that's posted shouldn't be altered? Post it here. Got a relative in Nigeria with money troubles? Don't we all.


    General question:
    In RTRPE, do all hoplites and hoplite levies have shield wall, or is that a result of Candel's mod?


    Here's what I'm going to be altering:

    In general:
    Most of the 60-80 man (on the setting where a normal hoplite unit has 120) units will get pushed up to 120. Small uber-units are a neat idea, but I've run tests and they get pwned one-on-one by a normal mercenary hoplite unit. I'll be pushing up their upkeep and recruitment costs proportionally.

    Pontic Nobles:
    The description says they are l33t, but they are not l33t. We can make them l33t.
    Besides increasing their size+cost, I'm going to give them attack/def. stats = Spartans -1.

    Hoplite levy:
    I'm taking away their shield wall. I love these guys, really, and I used them with shield wall to beat off a much better Carthaginian army in street fighting (that was a great battle!). But they seem too untrained to be able to do a shield wall realistically.

    Corinthian and Athenian hoplites:
    Increasing unit size, but not cost (they're already expensive). These guys should be something special if they're going to be in there at all. Otherwise, why bother? I say we claim that they're the especially well-armed and -trained upper classes of those unusually large cities.

    Eastern HI:
    Increasing unit size+cost. It should be hard for the Armenians and whoever else can make these things to get access to troops that fight like that.

    Carth. Sacred Band (the Beatles?):
    Doubling unit size, reducing hp to 1.

    Poeni Citizen Inf.:
    Increasing unit size. No increase in recruitment cost, but substantial increase in upkeep. If these guys were only called up in emergencies, let's alter their costs to make them easy to recruit but difficult to maintain for any length of time.

    All Hypaspistai:
    I saw in another thread that I'm not the only one who really, really hates seeing full armies of these things show up from the AI. Let's fix that by doubling their unit size, halving their hp, increasing recruitment costs by 25%, and upkeep by 33-50%.

    Spartan Hoplites:
    Leave as is. I want anyone using this mini-mod (at minimum, me) to still have a "Oh, $#@)&%!" reaction whenever they see Spartans, just like generals did back in the day.

    Mercenary units:
    Increase costs of all merc. cavalry. In most cases, it's substantially more cost-effective to buy mercs than it is to use your native cav, even when you're someone like Pontus with some reasonably good native lancers.

    Actually, how do I increase the costs of all mercenary units, or at least most? The units that are designed as mercs are usually fine (Eastern Mercs or Samnite Mercs, for instance), but the mercenary regular units are IMO too cheap.

    Bastarnae:
    I can't figure out how to double this unit's size without getting error messages, and they're hard enough to get that I'm ok with leaving them as is.

    Roman Regular Inf.:
    Should we increase the upkeep and/or cost on these to force the computer to use more alae?


    Any thoughts?
    Agree with most things. About the Romans..NO The Romans always relied on their heavy infantry. Cavalry wasn't too much important untill around the vanilla BI time frame. Keep the Spartans how they are About the hypastai. Try using a hidden resource so they can only be made in the starting capitals.
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  3. #3
    Quinn Inuit's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Units that need to be edited

    Quote Originally Posted by The Walrus
    Agree with most things. About the Romans..NO The Romans always relied on their heavy infantry. Cavalry wasn't too much important untill around the vanilla BI time frame. Keep the Spartans how they are About the hypastai. Try using a hidden resource so they can only be made in the starting capitals.
    Ok, I'm fine with leaving the Romans as is. I was just tossing that idea out there to see what happened.

    What do you mean about the cav?

    That's a good idea about the hidden resource. How do you do that? I know very little about modding, besides how to edit the EDU (and there was the one incident with the historical events files, too).
    RTR Platinum Team Apprentice, RTR VII Team Member, and Extended Realism Mod Team Coordinator. Proud member of House Wilpuri under the patronage of Pannonian

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  4. #4

    Default Re: Units that need to be edited

    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn Inuit
    Ok, I'm fine with leaving the Romans as is. I was just tossing that idea out there to see what happened.

    What do you mean about the cav?

    That's a good idea about the hidden resource. How do you do that? I know very little about modding, besides how to edit the EDU (and there was the one incident with the historical events files, too).
    The Romans didn't start using a lot of cavalry until around the BI time period.

    Here is a link where you can learn about it. I am going to put it in my mod

    http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=43747
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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Units that need to be edited

    Quote Originally Posted by The Walrus
    The Romans didn't start using a lot of cavalry until around the BI time period.

    Here is a link where you can learn about it. I am going to put it in my mod

    http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=43747
    Ah, I see. Thanks for linking that.

    Anything you (or anyone else) want me to work into this while I'm modding?
    RTR Platinum Team Apprentice, RTR VII Team Member, and Extended Realism Mod Team Coordinator. Proud member of House Wilpuri under the patronage of Pannonian

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  6. #6

    Default Re: Units that need to be edited

    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn Inuit
    Ah, I see. Thanks for linking that.

    Anything you (or anyone else) want me to work into this while I'm modding?
    Can't think of anything. You want to join my team Give in.......
    Whoever gives nothing, has nothing. The greatest misfortune is not to be unloved, but not to love.
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  7. #7
    Quinn Inuit's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Units that need to be edited

    No thanks, I've never been a fan of M&N. But I will hack together an EDU with these changes for your mod if you want. Right now I'm just waiting for an official 1.7 to come out and figured I'd quiz everyone until then.
    RTR Platinum Team Apprentice, RTR VII Team Member, and Extended Realism Mod Team Coordinator. Proud member of House Wilpuri under the patronage of Pannonian

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  8. #8

    Default Re: Units that need to be edited

    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn Inuit
    No thanks, I've never been a fan of M&N. But I will hack together an EDU with these changes for your mod if you want. Right now I'm just waiting for an official 1.7 to come out and figured I'd quiz everyone until then.
    Okay. Do you know the capitals of the factions train Hypastai
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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Units that need to be edited

    Quote Originally Posted by The Walrus
    Okay. Do you know the capitals of the factions train Hypastai
    Nope. I figured I'd just start up a new campaign and see where the capitals of the Ptolemies, Seleucids, and Bactrians were.
    RTR Platinum Team Apprentice, RTR VII Team Member, and Extended Realism Mod Team Coordinator. Proud member of House Wilpuri under the patronage of Pannonian

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  10. #10

    Default Re: Units that need to be edited

    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn Inuit
    Nope. I figured I'd just start up a new campaign and see where the capitals of the Ptolemies, Seleucids, and Bactrians were.
    NVM. I got them.
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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Units that need to be edited

    One more question for the group:
    Should I instead edit units like the Pontic Nobles and Eastern HI to be the size of a Spartan unit so as to be more easily affordable for cash-strapped factions?
    RTR Platinum Team Apprentice, RTR VII Team Member, and Extended Realism Mod Team Coordinator. Proud member of House Wilpuri under the patronage of Pannonian

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  12. #12

    Default Re: Units that need to be edited

    Check this out Quinn Inuit

    Quote Originally Posted by florin80
    IIRC they were not touched as much, but someone needs to check and compare their stats. This point was brought up during the discussion of the cavalry stats.
    See "Roman Cavalry" thread
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  13. #13
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    Default Re: Units that need to be edited

    Interesting, thanks. I'll wander in.
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  14. #14
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    Default Re: Units that need to be edited

    After reading the Roman Cav thread, I think I will also:

    Cut the attack bonus of sarissa-armed cav by 3
    Increase the attack bonus of sword cav by 1-2
    Cut the charge bonus of sword cav by 8.
    RTR Platinum Team Apprentice, RTR VII Team Member, and Extended Realism Mod Team Coordinator. Proud member of House Wilpuri under the patronage of Pannonian

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  15. #15

    Default Re: Units that need to be edited

    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn Inuit
    After reading the Roman Cav thread, I think I will also:

    Cut the attack bonus of sarissa-armed cav by 3
    Increase the attack bonus of sword cav by 1-2
    Cut the charge bonus of sword cav by 8.
    I eagerly await the results of this rebalancing.
    Whoever gives nothing, has nothing. The greatest misfortune is not to be unloved, but not to love.
    -Albert Camus

  16. #16

    Default Re: Units that need to be edited

    Is it possible to have cavalry charge with a spear/lance but then switch to swords if they stay in melee?

  17. #17

    Default Re: Units that need to be edited

    Quote Originally Posted by mcantu
    Is it possible to have cavalry charge with a spear/lance but then switch to swords if they stay in melee?
    I'm 95% sure yes. Since they do it in vanilla(IE roman armored general). But you would need to make an animation/model/skin for it. I think.(not sure since I don't do this)
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  18. #18
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    Default Re: Units that need to be edited

    Quote Originally Posted by The Walrus
    I eagerly await the results of this rebalancing.
    Really? Cool.

    I think it'll really make people have to think before they decide between a unit of heavy sword cav and heavy spear cav. At the moment, they're almost identical.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Walrus
    I'm 95% sure yes. Since they do it in vanilla(IE roman armored general). But you would need to make an animation/model/skin for it. I think.(not sure since I don't do this)
    That's waaaayyyy beyond my modding abilities. Heck, I think this project is beyond my modding abilities as is, but said abilities aren't going to improve if I don't give it a shot.
    RTR Platinum Team Apprentice, RTR VII Team Member, and Extended Realism Mod Team Coordinator. Proud member of House Wilpuri under the patronage of Pannonian

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  19. #19

    Default Re: Units that need to be edited

    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn Inuit
    Really? Cool.

    I think it'll really make people have to think before they decide between a unit of heavy sword cav and heavy spear cav. At the moment, they're almost identical.



    That's waaaayyyy beyond my modding abilities. Heck, I think this project is beyond my modding abilities as is, but said abilities aren't going to improve if I don't give it a shot.
    Mine too. I don't even have 3ds max
    Whoever gives nothing, has nothing. The greatest misfortune is not to be unloved, but not to love.
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  20. #20

    Default Re: Units that need to be edited

    In general, I like your ideas. Would this be only for BI and not for PE based on Rome 1.5 only?

    And how much does the poeni infantry cost to start off? Another thing I like is your pontus noble idea, I'd like to see them more battle cabable than they are now, which isen't very impressive at all.

    For the most part, I like already the way Roman infantry are organized. Although Allae/First Cohort/eagle bearing cohorts were the most experienced men of the legion historically, therefore more battle capable than the other cohorts in the same legion, yet in RTRPE they have no bonuses over normal legionaires. Could they possibly come with some experience bars or some more defence skill or something?

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