Ekpyrosis mod - battle mechanism for multiplayer mode (v.0.30)

[Ziuk]

Range of infantry missile weapons (for coming version)


I. Bow:

There are few types of bow in game: Normal, Composite, Recurve, Long
My knowledge about bows is actually not impressive. I don’t know why some units in game use specific type of bow. I don’t understand difference between range of ancient version of composite bow and recurve bow so bow is still ambiguous topic for me.

Below I present temporary solution which base on article:
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.230...21102655557873

Range of values for range of bows: 155-190 meters
Max range of Cretan bow: 175 meters (approximation) = base value

Normal – 155 meters
Composite/Recurve – 175 meters
Long/Longbow: 190 meters ?

Other source:
http://www.romanarmy.info/skirmishers1/skirmishers.html


II. Javelin:

Abort range of javelin I have found few interesting sources. There is significant difference between normal throw and throw with amentum/ankule:

http://www.academia.edu/2631534/Recr...Javelin_Thrown
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.230...21102656068063
http://www.archive.org/stream/journa...e/249/mode/1up

http://www.romanarmy.info/skirmishers1/skirmishers.html
http://www.ancient.eu.com/Peltast/

My calculation base mainly on results from this article:
http://www.academia.edu/2631534/Recr...Javelin_Thrown

Range: 55-70 meters – (Base value) avg ~ 63 meters

Ankyle – 70 meters
Normal - 63
Improved - 70
Prec - 70
Wooden - 63
Iron – range between – max range of pilium (30) and minimal range of javelin (55): ~ 43 meters


III. Pilium:

It’s was heavier weapon than typical javelin:

Range: 20-30 meters – avg 25 meters

http://www.romanum.historicus.pl/pilum.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilum


IV. Sling

"The more conservative estimates are around the 200 m mark (Ferrill 1985: 25), Connolly suggests 350 m (1981: 49), Korfmann estimates 400 m (1973: 37) while Demmin and Hogg go to 500 m (1893: 876; 1968: 30). The few accurately recorded observations are rather different. Reid records 55 m with a 227 g stone, and 91 m with 85 and 113 g balls (1976: 21). Burgess threw stones with his reconstructed Lahun sling between 50 and 100 yds, but admits to being unskilled at the art (1958: 230). Korfmann observed Turkish shepherds sling ordinary pebbles, ‘in 5 out of 11 trials the pebbles reached 200 m, and the three best casts were between 230 and 240 m (1973), while Dohrenwend has himself thrown beach pebbles over 200 yds (1994: 86)."

http://slinging.org/index.php?page=sling-ranges

Other sources:

http://www.romanarmy.info/skirmishers1/skirmishers.html
http://www.academia.edu/176644/New_E...ng_Projectiles

I have chosen more conservative value: 200 meters

[Luis Daoiz y Velarde]

Thank You so much for this mod!!!! Ill follow it closely, since I agree the best experience in tw games are multiplayer campaigns (sadly forgotten by CA and still in same beta status as with empire).
I only play multiplayer campaigns, so Ill test your mod.
I like the changes so far, and think youre aiming in the right direction !

Yes Im happy theres finally an mp mod!!!

[Southern Hunter]

Well done. I think I will start a new campaign with this. Works quite well as is, but finally the speed is such that you can see the effect of other minor problems with the sim.

[JaM]

Actually, i would contest the ranges for javelins a bit.

on page 2 of "Recreating the Ancient Greek Javelin Throw: HowFar Was the Javelin Thrown?"

To our knowledge (and we owe this to Harris, the only reference to the distance that the javelin was thrown inantiquity is from Statius in the
Thebaid , where the distance of a chariot racecourse at Nemea is described as being “three times a bow shot and four times a javelin throw: finem iacet inter utrumque quale quater iaculo spatium, ter harundine vincas” (6.353).

anyway this mention might be misleading, as It might be reffering to direct shooting range, which was used for bow competitions than indirect range.. average direct range for bows is around 60m, which means distance for chariot racecource could be 180m, while javelin range would be then 180/4=45m, which is exactly what Gary Bruggemann suggests at his page.

[JaM]

anyway its a good reading, thanks for that, its quite useful.

[Ziuk]

Don't worry you can contest my method and my decisions. It's lead to discussion and i have chance to learn something from other members.

I base on Conclusion
http://www.academia.edu/2631534/Recr...Javelin_Thrown

(page 13):

Conclusion
The ancient Greeks threw the javelin as part of their athletic festivals. Theuse of the ankyle increases the distance the javelin can be thrown, especially withhighly trained throwers using a run-up and proper technique. The actual distancethat the ancient Greeks could throw the javelin has been estimated bycontemporary scholars to be around 90 meters. This number, we have found, is ahigh estimate and is unlikely to have been achieved. We believe that a distance of 55 to 70 meters is more realistic as the maximum distance that the ancient Greeks probably threw the javelin during their athletic festivals.

We should remember that historians of ancient age are in completely different situation than for example people who study napoleonic age: poor source database, huge time distance, "romanocentrism" (history written winners), unreliable sources and authors etc.
It's mean that many times decision is a matter of trust. I think that we should check reliability of ancient sources so sometimes experiments are quite important.


We also have Rome 2 limitations:
Short range is good for small units when you command for example unit where you have 90 skirmishers you need strongly concentrate your attention on micromenagment. In my opinion interaction between skirmishers and other units is a very simplified so units with shorter range will generate annoying problems on battlefield. Especially when player commands 40 units.

[T-Duke]

I tried this mod both on line and vs ai and I was very surprised! Battle pace, fatigue system, projectile damage are very balanced and quite "coherent" to warfare era. I strongly suggest everyone to test it!

[Ziuk]

I have published new version:
- new movement system
- new range of weapons + some changes in projectiles damage
- stronger terrain modifiers (forest)

Link is in first post.

[T-Duke]

I agree wit increasing men per unit just for pikes but maybe double it its too much, what about 160---> 200 ?

[Ziuk]

I can decrease size of phalanx. Maybe -25%? I increased because small phalanx doesn't allow to use whole tactic typical for that formation.
I need check effectiveness of archers becuase maybe they are too strong - but they also cannot be too weak.

I also need test 40 units vs 40 units (1vs1) and check how new movement system works when 1 player command big army. There could be problem which i call: dfficulty of management. Quite realistic speed of battle can be bad solution in game where player plays role of whole chain of command.

[Ziuk]

Eureka !!!


I know why cavalry tired faster than cavalry and why we have problem with fatigue system.
We all know that modders have tendency to slow down movement of units in CA's games but in Rome 2 fatigue strongly depends on speed of animation(dynamism). So when you use second speed (run) in game it's not mean that game counts fatigue for run - everything depends on animation of movement. Especially in mods with slower movement system run looks like walk (in game) and it's very important because when run looks like walk it's mean that game engine counts fatigue for walk not for run. So unit must run and this run must looks like run in game. Otherwise we will have chaos in fatigue system. It's lead to revision of second speed which should represent fast run of soldier otherwise there will be still problem with fatigue.


Im still thinking about idea of 3 speed:
1. walk;
2. rapid advance as fast walk
3. run (normally it's a second speed)

[Ziuk]

reserved

[Oplitis]

Awesome job man! Thanks for this!

Keep it up!

[Southern Hunter]

Ziuk,

As for cavalry tiring, there is a specific setting for them (split into Cav and Light Cav) for fatigue when running in the fatigue table. It is set much higher than infantry. Just change it to suit yourself.

Or am I missing something that you are saying?

Hunter

[Kaunitz]

That's very interesting, Ziuk!

I fear that the animations are hardcoded? So, you cannot make units use the run animation when they're moving (comparatively) slowly. I just noticed that the charge-animation always seems to trigger (irrespective of actual movement speed, so it would look like horses are galloping on the spot), whereas running-animations seem to be linked to actual movement speed. If you set running speed too low, your soldiers will not use the run-animation, even when you let them go double-quick.

[Ziuk]

These options in _kv_fatigue:

running_cavalry
running_cavalry_light

totaly don't work and it's very annoying.

in previous game fatigue system works well(for example in NTW) but not in Rome 2.

My knowledge about animation is very low so i cannot help. You should probably wait for official tools for 3d models (import, export).

[Kaunitz]

Well it's not so much a problem with animations. Rather the question about when the animation (to which fatigue-tables seem to be linked....) is used.
Well yes, the fatigue-table is always a little mysterious. The "under small arms fire"-factor didn't work in NTW/ETW either (at least not in the way you would imagine, if at all....).

[Oplitis]

Any new stuff for this mod mate?

[Ziuk]

I tested mod in battles with 40 units per player and i think that such big battles have got totaly different character than 20vs20. Now i think that they are better because they give player more
tactical possibilities and macromanagement, general plan of battle is more important than details.

I work on size of units - relation between roman military organisation and hellenistic system. I would like introduce different size of units and tear down paradigm of equality because inequality is more natural and closer to reality.

[Southern Hunter]

These options in _kv_fatigue:

running_cavalry
running_cavalry_light

totaly don't work and it's very annoying.

in previous game fatigue system works well(for example in NTW) but not in Rome 2.

I think you may be mistaken about that. I have just done a few tests where I up those factors significantly (say 1,000), and my cavalry tire very quickly when running.


On the other matter, of fatigue being tied to the animation and not the stance, that seems to be true, and VERY annoying. It means my legionaries take fatigue for walking when walking, and walking when running (because my running speed is still considered a walk for animation purposes by the engine). Makes it very difficult to change the speeds of troops with ground scale. Sigh.