Too hard ?

[monkian]

Im normally pretty decent at the campaign map but Im struggling to make any many or progress what so ever whith any faction.

How am I supposed to make money and build a population at the same time ?

Attacking rebel cities earns very little money and all th eother factions seem too poor to seel maps/trade rights etc to.

Can anyone give me some game play tips please ?

(especially with Dumonia - starts off at -27000 ? )

*edit*

Ok, its taken quite a few turns but Im now making money.

Why do the food production buildings lower the population - doesnt make sense to me

[swabian]

they dont lower it. the negative bonuses just reduce the growth bonuses due to farming. Meanwhile it is intended that the farms produce mony according to their level, it is not intended that they cause equivalent population growth at the same time. However the economy system will be reworked again in the next patch and the negative bonuses will not be necessary anymore (it doesn't look good and are irritating as your comment prooves).

cheers

[monkian]

Cool - thanks for the reply

[General Sun]

I have no complaints with the campaign map, it really rockzors. Great job guys!

But, the battle is a little ridiculous on VH. The AI morale is a little absurd. I once had a single 80 unit surrounded on three sides by 3 units of spearmen, and a general repeatdely slamming it into the back. For 10 minutes the stupid unit doesn't break. Maybe you guys overdid it on the making battles longer did?

[swabian]

Panic is much more likely to break out in large battles. However, the human player is usually better in morale braking than the AI, hence the game is harder if the battles last longer. And its not so badly unrealistic because warriors in this situation cannot flee anyway and the battle is overlookable in this case. You were also proably fighting elite which will not flee that easily. I definately don't think we 'overdid' it, i rather think you're too used to the view of little manikins routing

[Agraes]

At least more realistic than the 1 minute battles of vanilla

When a unit is surrounded they will often "fight to death", just move bakc your units and it will rout.

Elites often fight much longer. It was a heroic era, with warriors often seeking personnal glory. The psychology of the AS gesithas or Hearthgeneats (heart-companions) is well illustrated by this quote (included in the mode, though from the "viking" era):

Then went forth proud thanes, brave men hastened eagerly, desiring one of two things - their lives to lose or their lord to avenge.
The Battle of Maldon

[oudysseos]

First of all I can't really comment on difficulty overall as I wimped out and am running my Ui Neill campaign on H/VH, large armies not huge. My comp can't handle the battles on huge (large lags a bit but I can deal with it). Campaign wise, I have conquered all of Ireland by the year 499 and it was ludicrously easy after the first 15 turns or so. This may be due to the Hard setting instead of Very Hard.

Big battles are definitely different than my previous experience with RTR, EB, IBFD etc. For one thing I find that casulties are extremely high on both sides and I'm not sure that this is very historically accurate, but then I don't know very much about Dark Ages warfare. Casulties in the Classical, Hellenistic and Roman periods tended to be light for the victor and massive for the loser, if you consider major set piece battle like Marathon, Cannae, Aurasio, Gaugamela, Issus, Phrapsus. In contrast. I routinely lost half of my attacking force even in victory. Harsh.

The game definetly needs sprites- laggy battles is a real turn-off. Of course it helps a lot if you restrict yourself to the General's pov, as the fewer units in frame the faster everything moves. It only slows when you zoom out to that magical bird's eye view that any General of Antiquity would have given his children's vital organs to have.

[Agraes]

Infantry fights tend to be very bloody and indecisive. I can assure you that a Brythonic army based on cavalry can won crushing victories (maybe even too easy ).

[swabian]

the charge bonuses for cavalry are currently too high. they will be significantly lowered in the next patch.

[Ruhan Zarathustra]

Is there a particular reason certain factions start so miserably broke? Specifically I mean Dumnonia (as was touched on by the OP), -20k bank with a -2k-ish starting income (setting to finicial cities and then very high taxes)... and surrounded by allies and rebels. They also don't really start with enough for more than a single decent sized army. It honestly seems like a relative odd starting position. Is playing as Dumnonia supposed to be this way to take into account some late game benefit I haven't seen that they recieve?

[Agraes]

Dumnonia is really strong later in the game, having very wealth provinces - and Arthur. It is just that first turns are though for better challenge. And they don't have the worse position by far. If you manage to keep peace with Gwent, exige tribute from Saxons you will be able to secure your start in several turns.

[Ruhan Zarathustra]

Ah, okay Agraes... normally I'd just play one of the Irish factions, but since Dumnonia was in and I loved Cromwell's books (I think I may even have mentioned it in a thread for either Arthurian or some other similar RTW mod ages ago) I wanted to play as the Dumnonians... but I always look at that horrific monetary start... and missed the two small stacks the first time and it made me sad. Good to know there is a reason for it and that it's not as bad as it seems.

Edit to add: Oh yeah, great mod by the way. I love the setting and also the more historical, less romanticised views of the Arthurian legend and this mod has both.

[Henry of Grosmont]

I can assure you that a Brythonic army based on cavalry can won crushing victories (maybe even too easy ).

I disagree. Battles against saxon factions, if they have high quality infantry, can be very hard to win (I never lost a battle in vanilla, always play vh/vh, don't believe in vh/m, because didn't see any truth in this claim, and a few in mods. So, it's not me to blame ). Briton cavalry can make a damage, the key is to strike quick, cause your infanttry, even a good one, won't stand for long, which is, historically, perfect. Until britons started to use heavy (roman type) cavalry, they were losing their country to their, once allies, now enemies. More than that, until Arthur (let's assume he did live, because somebody, definetly, kicked saxons butt and stopped their expansion for 55 years in Britain), saxons were unbeatable (I know, we can argue about that, but I didn't find any evidence of any somehow significant battle, they lost. Aurelianus and Bendragon had little success in that, you can see it in unstopable saxon expansion through those years).
My only complain is: none seems to keep their alliances ,except rebels. Even when your ally fights TWO other factions, and you have an army close to the border, he strikes without hesitation. I know it's not your fault guys, but having at least one ally, and helping each other would be perfect. I remember this happenning in MTW and VI.
P.S. And if Eotan cavalry intercepts your charge, things can get very interesting
By the way, I loose battles in this mod, and thank you for that guys. Eotan example was from my Elmet campaign. I was bleeding badly with them. Every battle, I was loosing half or more of my best troops, and now, it seems, that everybody hates me there, because the very last turn, I was attacked by another THREE factions. Again, thanks guys, great work.

[Agraes]

Cavalry charges have been reduced by half in the 0.62 patch. In my Gwynedd campaign, I won crushing victories with an army composed of half heavy cavalry and half infantry. The key is to encircle the ennemy, charge a unit from 3 sides. If the charge is well done, nothing can withstand it. I fought a lot the Eotenas, who had lot of Duguth in their ranks, probably among the best anti-cavalry weapons, I just send the infantry on them and cavalry get ride of the rest of the army.

Historically, Jutes and Saxons took regions often suffering from a power vacuum pretty early. They were the essential military force as foederati in eastern Britain, since the 4th century at least.

Cavalry was the key of British success against Anglo-Saxons. It was however an expensive thing to have a mounted force of armoured warriors, thus restricting their numbers drastically. So Germanics had often the advantage of numbers over them. In the end, Welsh would no longer had enough wealth to train the powerful cavalry, relying on archers and ambush.

[Henry of Grosmont]

Cavalry charges have been reduced by half in the 0.62 patch.

Now I see it. After me telling that cavalry can take a bad blow in 0.61 patch, and not that powerfull, you say that charges redused by half in 0.62. When should we expect the second one? Sounds fun.

It was however an expensive thing to have a mounted force of armoured warriors, thus restricting their numbers drastically.

We all remember why Arthur married Gwenchwyfar. 100 mounted armored warriors

[swabian]

Its not exactle reduced by half. Marca Contwn have more than 50% of theior former charge bonuses fro example. The most important thing was to remove the power_charge attribute (only the wulfbyrnaan are still having it). Heavy cavalry is conditionally earlier available. I also reduced costs for cavalry by 5% and lowered the spear bonuses. The lances are upgradeable as blades, btw. Cavalry still playes the decisive role for Britons. I also changed other stats, especially of Brythonic heavy cav, in order to give the different heavy cavalry types more unique strategical and tactical purposes. I will write something about this more detalied in the ATW Unit Guide.

cheers

[swabian]

Is there a particular reason certain factions start so miserably broke? Specifically I mean Dumnonia (as was touched on by the OP), -20k bank with a -2k-ish starting income (setting to finicial cities and then very high taxes)... and surrounded by allies and rebels. They also don't really start with enough for more than a single decent sized army. It honestly seems like a relative odd starting position. Is playing as Dumnonia supposed to be this way to take into account some late game benefit I haven't seen that they recieve?

this low starting income is needed to give the AI a head start relative to the power of the players faction. It is also a mean trick by which i try to reduce the options to exploit the AI stupidity. Most hostile factions are coming up with a ceasfire proposal at the start, the player can now exploit this by demanding high tributes. The chance for this to happen at a later time (after the starting 'sequence') is very low and the player is forced to exploit the AI at this certain stage of the game. So, especially with Dyfneint and Rheged, you should try to get as much tribute at the beginning as you can get. It is possible with Dyfneint to get out of debt within 4-5 turns i think. Also note that the sizes of the starting forces are basically a help for the AI, so that one faction doesn't rush weaker neighbouring factions and to determine in which direction the deterrence works, thus wehre the agression is canalised to at the start. It's no fault to think about whether all troops are really needed at the start (this is actually quite an important decision).

[HamilcarBarca]

I just played my first campaign as Dumnonia. I lost. My ecomomy just never got out of the red. Starting at -27500 is tough!!!!

How is Dumnonia meant to get out of this financial hole? I sacked neighbouring cities - but that is only worth 1000-1200. I tried selling maps and alliances to the British kingdoms, but the best price I could get was a miserly 800 or so.

I could never build a building. I could never recruit a unit. I could never get replacements for existing units. I went under.

Give me some advice!!! This can't be the way its meant to be.

H.

[Agraes]

Try to keep peace in the first turns. Saxons and Jutes will probably come early on to ask for peace. Agree only in exchange of trade rights and a tribute of 5000 to 8000 denarii. Try to keep peace with Gwent, for this just just avoid making alliance with their neighbouring factions like Powys. Wait till your economy is back in the green to launch an attack.

[edmont]

It is also a mean trick by which i try to reduce the options to exploit the AI stupidity.

You are rare one of a mean trickster!Man just can't gather enough wits to decide his economical problems I mean its o'key on Christians but Pagans can't build shrines and have constant revolts as a result all their reinforcements have to garrison occupied towns it doesn't lead anywhere.