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Thread: Counter-skirmisher tactic/strategy during Napoleonic War?

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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Counter-skirmisher tactic/strategy during Napoleonic War?

    Consider the widely use of skirmishers for all participants of Napoleonic War, what were some counter-measure againsting the mass spam of skirmishers everyone tried to throw?
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    Default Re: Counter-skirmisher tactic/strategy during Napoleonic War?

    Longer range and training.
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    Default Re: Counter-skirmisher tactic/strategy during Napoleonic War?

    Well yeah, Prussia's answer was to train it's own skirmishers in loose formations (between 1806 and 1812, mainly).
    "Pompeius, after having finished the war against Mithridates, when he went to call at the house of Poseidonios, the famous teacher of philosophy, forbade the lictor to knock at the door, as was the usual custom, and he, to whom both the eastern and the western world had yielded submission, ordered the fasces to be lowered before the door of science."

    Pliny the Elder, Naturalis Historia, 7, 112

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    Default Re: Counter-skirmisher tactic/strategy during Napoleonic War?

    Despite the increasing use of light infantry units, line infantry were often not too shabby at throwing forward their own skirmish lines. Conventional line engagements were often impossible in built up or thickly vegetated areas, and so it was do this or suffer heavy casualties.

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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Counter-skirmisher tactic/strategy during Napoleonic War?

    Hardly; the role of skirmishers was to distract enemies long enough so columns could get close and bayonet enemies when they were in shocked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
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    Default Re: Counter-skirmisher tactic/strategy during Napoleonic War?

    IIRC the usual tactic was to swish some light cavalry at them, push 'em back into the enemy lines. This could get expensive if the cav pursued too close to the supporting line.

    At Waterloo some clever (and I suppose more experienced) British light inf (was it KGL?) lay down on the approach of cavalry and the sabres couldn't reach them, and horses naturally avoided trampling them. The horsemen either had to dismount (risky) or ride off (embarrassing). Of course lancers had a field day, these dudes were killing machines vs cav and inf, a fella lying on the turf was a juicy target.

    Of course light inf countered light inf typically, which could lead to a "sticky" situation. Once infantry in general got in an exchange of fire there was a problem getting them to stop and move somewhere else ("buit I can see them! they're right there!"). Light inf generally showed more initiative but still had this problem.

    Light inf would get pushed back by an infantry column approaching but I don't know of any occasions this was used as a specific tactic: IIRC the British light inf (Maitland?) fell back before the Guard columns at Waterloo but the Guard weren't after the skirmishers, they were looking to hit the line inf. In the end the lights took their flank.
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    Col. Tartleton's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Counter-skirmisher tactic/strategy during Napoleonic War?

    Mortars or howitzers. Spherical shells should persuade them to clear out.

    Unfortunately in these proto industrial years cannon and shot were going to be limited to more important targets.

    Counter skirmishing is really the only choice. Cavalry would also be wasted on them.
    Last edited by Col. Tartleton; September 11, 2013 at 07:31 PM.
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    Default Re: Counter-skirmisher tactic/strategy during Napoleonic War?

    Skirmishers were used effectively before the Napoleonic period, IIRC the Austrians gave Frederick der Grosse some curry, was it at Prague? Disrupted the superb Prussian firing lines, they only excaped because the Currasiers charged down the Croatians.

    Cav was the weapon of choice to sweep away skirmishers for powers lacking light infantry of their own. Not sure if arty was ever used to clear off pesky riflemen in the Napoleonic period, is that an ACW thing?
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    Default Re: Counter-skirmisher tactic/strategy during Napoleonic War?

    For how skirmishing worked in the Napoleonic Wars see:

    Infantry Skirmishing in the Napoleonic Wars by Peter Hofschröer.
    Napoleonic Skirmishing In Practice by Peter Hofschröer.

    MIRROR SITE
    Infantry Skirmishing in the Napoleonic Wars
    by Peter Hofschröer.
    Napoleonic Skirmishing In Practice
    by Peter Hofschröer.

    druzhina345
    Illustrations of Soldiers
    Last edited by druzhina345; September 11, 2013 at 08:10 PM.

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    Default Re: Counter-skirmisher tactic/strategy during Napoleonic War?

    Nice, Druzh.
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    Default Re: Counter-skirmisher tactic/strategy during Napoleonic War?

    Concerning 18th Century German light troops and the text by Hofschröer, we need to differentiate a few things:

    - Pandours and other Austrian irregulars. These were border troops from the Balkans used to guerilla warfare. They certainly were the best in that trade of their time, but played little role in pitched battles. Lobositz indeed would be the only example that comes to my mind in which these troops made a difference under special circumstances (holding a steep vineyard against Prussian line). Off the field, they really gave Austria's enemies a hard time in the "Little War", see Frederic's Bohemian campaign of 1744 as an example.

    - Prussian Light Infantry, and similar units of other states. These were a rather poor attempt to counter the Pandours. While they were as effective in raping and plundering, they were no real match for the Austrian lights. They had but some minor successes in the Western Theatre during the SYW (against the French and their German allies). Frederic considered them completly useless and expandable, and that's the background of his post-war quote suggesting to use light troops in the opening moves: the first line was to expect the worst casualties. In fact those light infantry was only used in field battles in situations of dire need.

    - Jäger. This was a specialists corps of snipers, usually (but not exclusivly) armed with rifles. These weapons required different tactics, such as operating in teams of two (sniper and spotter), keeping away from enemy formations, picking targets by their importance, and so on, in which the Germans became experts in the 18th Century.


    None of these can really be considered the forerunners of the 19th Century light infantry. This goes to a different formation of infantry: the grenadiers. Grenadiers were picked men from the line infantry, grouped in their own companies (which fromed special battalions in the Prussian army). Grenadiers were given the tasks that the lights were given in the 19th Century, such as forming the avantguard, covering the flanks, fighting in difficult terrain, forming detachements, etc. And also screening the own forces (not so much in the Prussian army were they formed independent battalions).


    Concerning counter-skirmish tactics, I can't recall any occasions in which cavalry was used against skirmishers. I am not saying that this never happened, but it certainly wasn't the norm for a simple reason: skirmishers were screening the infantry (center of the line), while cavalry was placed on the flanks. Artillery excludes itself too because the deal with those skirmishers is that they are spreading and that way make a poor target. In fact skirmishers was the most effectiv arm against artillery.

    The only thing to do against skirmishers indeed was to use your own ones, or to keep to on pushing foreward and that way force them back on their main line.

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    Default Re: Counter-skirmisher tactic/strategy during Napoleonic War?

    In theory, the light company of each regiment was supposed to provide an organic skirmishing element.
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    Default Re: Counter-skirmisher tactic/strategy during Napoleonic War?

    Quote Originally Posted by KEA View Post
    ...
    Concerning counter-skirmish tactics, I can't recall any occasions in which cavalry was used against skirmishers. I am not saying that this never happened, but it certainly wasn't the norm for a simple reason: skirmishers were screening the infantry (center of the line), while cavalry was placed on the flanks. Artillery excludes itself too because the deal with those skirmishers is that they are spreading and that way make a poor target. In fact skirmishers was the most effectiv arm against artillery....
    Pretty sure there are multiple examples at Waterloo alone. Now I think about it there were cav attacks on French light infantry at Wagram too, I forget all the details but it was a common tactic in the Napoleonic era.

    Just did a quick wiki and there's a few references to arty being used as well, so Tarles was on the money.
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    Default Re: Counter-skirmisher tactic/strategy during Napoleonic War?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Pretty sure there are multiple examples at Waterloo alone.
    Multiple examples of cavalry attacking skirmishers at Waterloo? when? where?

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    Default Re: Counter-skirmisher tactic/strategy during Napoleonic War?

    I'm quite fond of the anti material snipers of the day, the Amusette armed Jaegers. 1 pound bipod mounted musket aimed and fired by a pair of green uniformed German huntsmen. Best of both worlds. Boom Headshot.
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    Default Re: Counter-skirmisher tactic/strategy during Napoleonic War?

    Quote Originally Posted by KEA View Post
    Multiple examples of cavalry attacking skirmishers at Waterloo? when? where?
    IIRC in Battle tactics of Napoleon and his Enemies it mentions several instances around La Haye Sainte, and possibly around the squares later in the day (don't have the book before me). There's incidents from a quick google of French lancers pig sticking Russian skirmishers in 1813. I can't recall all the instances I've read.

    Happy to be corrected if I have this wrong, but pretty sure it was a common tactic.
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    Default Re: Counter-skirmisher tactic/strategy during Napoleonic War?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    IIRC in Battle tactics of Napoleon and his Enemies it mentions several instances around La Haye Sainte
    There was French cavalry accompanying d'Erlon's Corps on that flank. Insofar we can assume that they came across enemy skirmishers. But these already were retreating - in fact the entire line of skirmishers was at this point because of the advance of the French infantry. That's what I meant: advancing with the infantry was the best way to get rid of the skirmishers. Here it rather was accidently that some assisting cavalry would have caught some straggling lights on their way back to their parent units.

    The main fighting of light infantry at this point of the battlefield was done by the rifles inside La Hay Sainte, which was of course done by French infantry, not cavalry.

    and possibly around the squares later in the day
    I think we can exclude skirmishers operating deliberately between their squares in the midst of an attack for enemy heavy cavalry. This would pretty much render the entire idea of squares pointless.

    There's incidents from a quick google of French lancers pig sticking Russian skirmishers in 1813. I can't recall all the instances I've read.
    Sounds like Borodino. The Russians had thrown out a thick line of skirmishers in front of their redoubts, while the French were attacking with everything at hand, even heavy cavalry against fortifications. In this chaos French lancers indeed would have come across Russian light infantry. But Borodino probably is the worst example of poor generalship of the entire periode and cannot be taken as a pattern for early 19th Century standard operations.

    Happy to be corrected if I have this wrong, but pretty sure it was a common tactic.[/QUOTE]

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    Default Re: Counter-skirmisher tactic/strategy during Napoleonic War?

    Quote Originally Posted by KEA View Post
    ...
    Sounds like Borodino. ...
    No it was in Germany somewhere.
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    Default Re: Counter-skirmisher tactic/strategy during Napoleonic War?

    Quote Originally Posted by KEA View Post
    skirmishers were screening the infantry (center of the line), while cavalry was placed on the flanks.
    This doesn't hold up to reality, though, considering that by the Napoleonic era, armies were no longer invariably drawn up in a single, clearly defined formation, with infantry in the center and cavalry on the flanks. The armies were deployed by corps or mutually supporting divisions, and some cavalry was generally around to support any sector of the front. At a battle like Aspern-Essling, Wagram or Borodino, for example, there were cavalry units all over the place, not just on the flanks of the armies.

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    Default Re: Counter-skirmisher tactic/strategy during Napoleonic War?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blatta Optima Maxima View Post
    This doesn't hold up to reality, though, considering that by the Napoleonic era, armies were no longer invariably drawn up in a single, clearly defined formation, with infantry in the center and cavalry on the flanks. The armies were deployed by corps or mutually supporting divisions, and some cavalry was generally around to support any sector of the front. At a battle like Aspern-Essling, Wagram or Borodino, for example, there were cavalry units all over the place, not just on the flanks of the armies.
    Those "cavalry units all over the place" was heavy cavalry held in reserve. Their task was to break through the enemy line once it showed signs of weakness or otherwise became softened up. This has absolutely nothing to do with skirmishing.

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