Aeimnestus Ancient Naval Warfare & Realistic Combat mod (Current version 1.5)

[jockmcplop]

Dunadd i see your point, but the testudo HAS to be effective or there is no point in it being in the game. It was a good tactic that did pretty well at neutralizing the heavy ranged combat that Rome often faced. What this mod will hopefully do well i simulate the fact that when the romans were prepared, they could face any type of ranged army and win most of the time. If caught unawares, or tactically outmaneuvered, they were toast. The mod should do this fairly well from the descriptions here because ranged units hitting from the back and side are still going to be extremely dangerous.

[jockmcplop]

Please ignore the above post. I can't find the edit button i didn't properly read the conversation before responding. I have a hangover sorry

[Dunadd]

Dunadd i see your point, but the testudo HAS to be effective or there is no point in it being in the game. It was a good tactic that did pretty well at neutralizing the heavy ranged combat that Rome often faced. What this mod will hopefully do well i simulate the fact that when the romans were prepared, they could face any type of ranged army and win most of the time. If caught unawares, or tactically outmaneuvered, they were toast. The mod should do this fairly well from the descriptions here because ranged units hitting from the back and side are still going to be extremely dangerous.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be pretty effective, just doubting whether it was used before the late republic (1st century BC) or early empire (1st century AD). From wikipedia Plutarch and Cassius Dio wrote that Mark Anthony's soldiers used it in Parthia. That's possible, but equally possible that they were ascribing things they knew about in the present to the past. Maybe others will know the sources better though and be able to say whether it was used during the Macedonian and Punic wars.

[Aeimnestus]

I like the general idea for this mod and a lot of what it does is good, but parts of it are either unrealistic or the exact opposite of historically realistic, so i won't be trying it at least in it's current form.

Thankfully, no one is forcing you.

This just makes no sense. It's the opposite of realism. There are plenty of historical references to slingers being able to damage heavily armoured troops in both the ancient and medieval period, so making archers have higher armour penetration than slingers is just exactly the opposite of the reality. Sling shots (especially the commonly used lead ones) could cave in helmets and breastplates made of bronze or iron. It didn't need to go through the armour to break the bones of the person wearing it by caving it in. That's why slings should have armour penetration.

Balaeric slingers were the only Carthaginian foot skirmishers the Romans rated as good troops for a reason - they could wound and kill the heaviest armoured Roman infantry from a range way beyond that of any javelin.

The trouble with slings is that different projectiles were used at different ranges. Caving in helmets and breastplates would be close range hits with larger projectiles. This is hard to accurately reflect ingame. The trouble with historical accounts is that they are usually written by ancient writers who had never been near a battle and were...biased. They usually include information such as how the enemy numbered 200.000 troops who were brave and ferocious and also extremely skilled warriors yet slaughtered to a man, while his own nation's victorious army consisting of only 10.000 troops only lost 50 unfortunate soldiers. Of course, those same objective sources also usually claim how fantastic certain enemy (mercenary) units performed, who by that time had miraculously become auxiliary units in his nation's army.

I'm not disputing slingers weren't effective. But they also weren't battle winners on their own, no missile weapons were until the 100-year war.

That's good, but transport ships shouldn't have oars or rams at all - they were usually commandeered merchant sailing vessels and dead and sunk if they met enemy warships without oared warships of their own to protect them.

Historically, ancient armies would generally embark on warships or at least be escorted by them unless there was a desperate situation. I feel I have neutered transport ships sufficiently. Even a basic navy consisting of hemiolia's can wipe the floor with them.

Also on the testudo being used in the early republic the only source i can find from googling is Livy - and his reliability here is in doubt given that he also claims the Gauls formed a testudo when they sacked the Capitol of Rome under Brennus in 390 BC. So if you believe Livy, the Italian celts and Gauls have to be able to form testudo too. If you decide Livy is unreliable then no pre-marian and possibly no pre-Imperial Romans used testudo. I'd say him even claiming the Gauls were using it in 390 BC shows he's completely unreliable on it and just claiming any close formation with overlapping shields is testudo - seems unlikely it was used until Imperial times.

Possibly. It is likely that the testudo existed in some form during the early- and mid republic, though by all likeliness not as complex as the famous legionary testudo we know from Asterix and hollywood which evolved from an earlier, simpler testudo.

[Kristoff]

Aeimnestus, while waiting for 1.5, could you tell me how exactly fix 1.4 so it works in-game (you mentioned changing formats?)? I could waste some hours playing now :-)

[Dunadd]

I'm not disputing slingers weren't effective. But they also weren't battle winners on their own, no missile weapons were until the 100-year war.

Mounted missile armed troops were often battle winners (parthians, sassanids, numidians, etc).

And no troop type was a battle winner on it's own - Roman legionaries on their own got massacred repeatedly if their own and allied cavalry were outnumbered and beaten by the enemy's (e.g battle of Cannae and the Bagradas Plains). When the Romans won decisively in battles in Africa under Scipio their cavalry outnumbered the Carthaginian cavalry due to Masinissa and his Numidians going over to their side. If there was decisive unit type in the punic wars it was cavalry - including missile armed Numidian cavalry, though even cavalry usually couldn't win a battle on it's own.

Slingers and archers were only ever used in small numbers in most armies of the period. The Persian archers were certainly ineffective against phalangites and lance armed cavalry in Alexander's wars before the punic wars, but it's quite possible that slingers were only used in small numbers despite being highly effective.

e.g If you read Professor Matthew Strickland's book 'The Great Warbow' longbows as powerful as those use in the Hundred Years War existed and were used in small numbers long before the English adopted them as one of their main weapons.

Historically, ancient armies would generally embark on warships or at least be escorted by them unless there was a desperate situation.

True, which is why i think they should be destroyed automatically if they meet enemy warships and don't have a friendly fleet of warships with them. Escorting warships couldn't just be commandeered the way merchant ships could - they took time and money to build and money to pay the oarsmen.

I feel I have neutered transport ships sufficiently. Even a basic navy consisting of hemiolia's can wipe the floor with them.

Well that's an improvement.

Possibly. It is likely that the testudo existed in some form during the early- and mid republic, though by all likeliness not as complex as the famous legionary testudo we know from Asterix and hollywood which evolved from an earlier, simpler testudo.

yeah, quite possibly they used a shield wall or say had the second rank of the formation raise their shields above their heads or something like that

[Aeimnestus]

Version 1.5 changelog:

Naval changes:
- Implemented the naval (or to be more exact, boarding) changes for all the Hellenistic and eastern kingdoms.
- Increased the effectiveness of ranged units in naval battles somewhat.

Missile weapon changes:
- Tweaked the ammo count of every missile unit in the game to more realistic values. Slingers and arrows do less damage than in vanilla, but can sustain firing roughly 30% longer.
- Tweaked the bow types of certain units to be more historical.
- My earlier javelin ammo-count changes were by error not fully implemented. All infantry javelin units now have 7 javelins, based on the amount a velite would carry according to plutarch.
- Slightly increased the damage of javelins compared to version 1.4
- Increased the difference in effectiveness between elite ranged units like Rhodian Slingers and peasant type ranged units like Helot Slingers.

Melee unit changes:
- Increased the stats of Spartan Hoplites so they are now slightly superior to normal Hoplites instead of slightly inferior.
- Increased the effectiveness of the testudo substantially, however units engaged in melee while in testudo formation are only 50% (defensive testudo) or 70% (attacking testudo) effective in their attacks in combat until the formation is disabled.

Campaign changes:
- Added the Training Field building chain as an option for minor settlements.


Download version 1.5 here: http://www.fileswap.com/dl/pS00Bvgyae/

[TheSunEmperor]

Thank the Gods! A Quinquereme with Marines (Well, Principes work just as well! )

Thanks for this fantastic mod, you really fixed the naval warfare.

[♠ Thomas Cochrane ♠]

Want to DL this as Naval Battles are screwed at the moment, but I get a freeze at the splash screen using this mod. It must be a big conflict with other mods. Can you say what mods this clashes with please

[♠ Thomas Cochrane ♠]

Can you also please release a naval only version. I saw you said the mods was now too complicated to do separate releases, but are the combat changes relevant in naval combat as well?

[agnes69]

Version 1.5 changelog:

Campaign changes:
- Added the Training Field building chain as an option for minor settlements.

Alas, this option does not work.

[raest]

liking most of the changes so far... do you have any plans to also mod the land rosters of some factions to be more... accurate? (f.e. removing most of the artillery from barbarians, the plethora of redundant units in hellenic factions, etc..)

[Master Necromancer]

Yes! Now only the barbarians are left for tweaking.

[KaerMorhen]

For some reasons I can't download this file?

[elodea]

Seems to have same 'bug' as 1.4

Rome 2 doesn't seem to recognize 1.5 and reverts to vanilla. All the special abilities are still there.

[Aeimnestus]

Seems to have same 'bug' as 1.4

Rome 2 doesn't seem to recognize 1.5 and reverts to vanilla. All the special abilities are still there.

Hmm it works fine for me. Have you extracted the file into the rome2/data folder, then launched Rome 2 through the mod manager after selecting my mod?

[/URL]]
Want to DL this as Naval Battles are screwed at the moment, but I get a freeze at the splash screen using this mod. It must be a big conflict with other mods. Can you say what mods this clashes with please

When you launch the mod manager, you can see exactly which mods conflict with mine. As a general rule, any mod that changes combat stats (ex. Radious).
Mods that are compatible are any and all cosmetic mods, such as the various skinpack mods or the realistic colouring mod.

[Aeimnestus]

Alas, this option does not work.

I've just tested it, and it does work, though you still need to unlock the proper technology to be able to actually build it. If it doesn't work for you, is it possible you have another mod installed that conflicts with mine? Is it a specific faction that you do not get the option to construct them with?

For some reasons I can't download this file?

I checked the link. The download is working fine.

[KaerMorhen]

I checked the link. The download is working fine.

I've no download option at all.

[Master Necromancer]

I've no download option at all.

Click on slow download.

[elodea]

Hmm it works fine for me. Have you extracted the file into the rome2/data folder, then launched Rome 2 through the mod manager after selecting my mod?

Ah thanks! Wasn't using mod manager. Silly me.