Results 1 to 19 of 19

Thread: About Britain/Ireland in mod

  1. #1

    Default About Britain/Ireland in mod

    Just wanted to give some ideas of the non-Roman portions of the British isles. Haven't played mod yet, so keep that in mind (intend to, but BI has been giving me trouble). I tend to just go about forums and mods and chime in on this in historically-minded mods.

    Of the Picts and Gaels, the bigger threat to Roman-Britons were Gaels. Niall became king of Ireland early in the period (after seizing the forts at Teamhair {Tara}, Eamain Macha {Navan}, and Ard Macha {Armagh}), and was an associate of the Picts, and armed them (Gaels had far more iron). Picts themselves were becoming more Gaelic (until they began dressing sort of like them; wearing knee-length shirts and going bare-legged and such, but they didn't have the strict clothing laws), though they lacked the large amount of weapons Gaels had, spoke their own language, etc. Picts rarely conducted more than raids in the north. More of a threat to the southern Caledonian kingdoms (Gododdin, Strathclyde, Galwyddel) than the Roman Britons, though they did obviously raid deep at times. However, Niall raided deep in Britain and Gaels actually established kingdoms (Dyfedd was originally ruled by Irish lords subservient to the Eoganacht of Munster) or territorial holdings, and served as far as the Alps as mercenaries. Picts seemed more interested in maintaining their territories (mind also that Niall took submission payments from the Picts for a brief period, but that's possibly what led to his death; they got tired of paying them, and he went to Pictland to fight them, was ambushed and killed, though that's only one account of his death; another is he was serving with other Gaelic mercenaries in the Roman army and was killed in the Alps, another was he was strangled at sea by the treasonous Riruire of Leinster). I don't expect you to change faction selection, it just kind of struck me as odd, but I guess more people are familiar with the Picts at the time. However, I do hope Ireland at least isn't using Pictish units; they weren't the same, and we actually know what the Gaelic military structure was (after the Irish converted they wrote an awful lot, and regularly about the army and how it worked, which shows more sophistication than one may expect). They are not remotely similar to late medieval Irish armies (which CA seemed to assume), and dressed completely different than 'Celts'. Gaels were demi-Celts, not genuine Celts, and looked a lot different; that's a problem everyone seems to make, assuming that the inhabitants of Ireland were 'Celts' in the vein of Gauls or Britons, but they were vastly different people who had absorbed Celtic influences but had their own society and aspects of their life.

    And now, onto that, sorry if this gets longwinded. The army is divided into three main bodies (though one is mercenaries). Almost everyone carried darts (gassu or gae varieties) or throwing spears. I don't know if it's any use at this point, but here it is.

    The Ceithernn (Warband), which became 'kerns', but quite different in this period. The Ceithernn are levies, and divided themselves into a few sub-groupings, the 'Ceithernn' in the strict sense (levies of little trained people; also the lowest rank who ever fought; by law every settlement carried enough darts and small shields for every able bodied man and woman, so this was as close as they came to 'peasants'), the Fianadi (semi-professional soldiers who acted as light infantry), and Bogclocernn (missiles, usually slings), who were provided largely the same as the other lower Ceithernn. The Ceithernn wore tights, shoes, and a thigh length shirt, and typically shaved their faces clean, and wore their hair straight and long. Only the uppermost, the Fianadi, wore any armor (a padded jacket), and often a fur cloak. Fianadi were typically afforded a spear or sword (mind that Gaelic swords were wide, short flat blades usually, which resembled a gladius, and were drawn from the same source, an Iberian sword) in addition to a shield (usually a fairly big round shield) and some javelins. The lower Ceithernn were guaranteed a spear and a clutch of darts, and a little round shield, and little else.

    The Cliarthairi ('Troopers'), the volunteer regulars drawn from the ranching and business estates. The Cliarthairi dressed in a knee-length shirt with no trousers, and wore cloaks with colors and patterns (stripes, plaid, or checkers) and that designated their social rank (but not clan affiliation, that's tartan and comes centuries and centuries later, and is Scottish). The upper part of the ignoble Cliarthairi were Dhiolmaini. A Cliarthaire was assigned to a portion of a regiment (a ruta) based on what armaments he possessed. Every Cliarthairi had to provide a spear, two throwing spears, a shield (usually an oval shield), and a dagger. He would then be given a heavy padded coat. If he had wealth or a generous Fuire (a county-king, the lowest rank of Gaelic nobility) or Boaire (the highest ignoble rank, the owner of a farm estate), he would carry a sword of a similar type to what Fianadi carried, but better quality, and usually just a bit longer, and a round helmet. Most Gaelic horse was from the lowest type of Cliarthairi. They had to provide their own horse, but had to qualify on it as well (throwing javelins through rings). Cliarthairi trained one month out of every four months, including one week each of those months with the Ceithernn (and two with the Fianadi), so that the levies could march with them properly and understood how to follow commands. The uppermost part of the ignoble Cliarthairi was usually the Curadi (champions from among ignoblemen).

    The Aire (noblemen and their retainers) were technically part of the Cliarthairi. However, the uppermost of them wore robes instead, and fuller helmets with cheekguards, and armor above padding (bronze chest plates, scale armor, lamellar, or mail in the case of the upper most of them). They include the Arras (Oath-Friends, bodyguards of noblemen of the rank of Ruire or higher; that is, the actual kings and immediate sub-kings), the Deaisbard (the bodyguards of Fuire), the Loachi and Milidhi (noble champions and heroes). Mind that one was not necessarily born into a noble position; you would be 'elected' via tanistry. There was no genuinely blood-inheritance. While bloodlines affected the selection of the heir a totally unrelated heir could be and often was selected (that nonsense with 'Celtic noble clansmen' being in their position by birth is completely inaccurate). Wealthy enough, also, were they to afford actual long bladed swords more similar to the spatha, but of local make and design, and derived in general from old styles (Gaels seemed to carry a notable contempt for most Roman goods; they don't show up in Ireland far from the Roman forts on the coast, and, as such, with the exception of some small goods, most Gaelic objects seem largely derived from older designs of Celtic or Iberian objects).

    Gaels fought in formations akin to shieldwalls much of the time in the Cliarthairi and up, with charges being done by the Ceithernn or Deisi tribes (Deisi, or vassal, tribes had 'Cliarthairi' but they were equipped lighter, usually totally unarmored but for a shield, and just dressed like Cliarthairi; the Deisi also worked as mercenaries for foreigners regular, and may have been the 'Attacotti' the Romans hired) while the Cliarthairi approached, usually with the Marcshulaidh (cavalry) doing flanking manuevers. The nobles and champions were spread in small blocks in the wall to encourage the men.

    Men were organized in multiples of 25 or 50, up to 500 men in a single rutati (a sub-regiment/company). Each one of these groups in the Cliarthairi had a standard (a regional banner usually), a hornblower, and a Cobticc (a captain, drawn from the Ocairi, the farm managers, and Boairi); the Ceithernn acted as 'attachments' and took commands from a captain, but had no standard or horn. Commands were given by the hornblower of the leader of an army, and were repeated by the hornblowers of each troop. There were totally irregular troops, but they were typically mercenaries (Gasraidh, 'rabble') or fanatics in pagan Ireland (naked spearmen were apparently popular with pagan Irish in some capacity; with the exception of these, Gaels never fought shirtless, they could be fined for it). The actual Rutama (the army) obeyed a hierarchy though based on ranks of high social rank ignobles then the noble grades.

    Some other notes; mustaches were worn by the middle class and up, but not beards usually. Beards were rarely worn by anyone but upper nobles or the otherwise wealthy. People rose and bathed in a washtub with soap, and shaved clean of their bodyhair (it was considered too dirty and kept dirt on the body, a holdover from the Celtic cleanliness moors). Health and sanitation were not remotely new concepts, though they were bolstered when Christianity was introduced (Ireland became the most major repository of Greek medical knowledge in western Europe outside of Italy during the first half of the dark ages and still had a very dense population until the Renaissance era and ultimately the potato famine; Ireland had a population relatively equal to that of Britain most of the time, but denser overall due to Ireland's smaller size), with actual hospitals being built in the major forts (though two were destroyed by the Norse and the third by the Normans who then built a new one over it). The hermitic and monastic tradition was also heavily refined there (seems silly in BI that Celts didn't have monasteries when they clearly did). Something a bit older; Ireland is home to the oldest intact 'highway' in Europe (from around 200 BC), a wood-plank road that was of a type common of Celts between their major forts (most of the roads remained for some time, but were ripped up in various periods, and replaced with stone roads during the middle ages). Clans, while they 'existed' in a very loose sense, were not and are not a major component of traditional Irish society. The traditional component was a Fine (family), and above that, a Tuath (tribe), the Fine being substantially smaller than later clans, and the Tuath, substantially larger (Noble clansmen again, made no sense; Gaels were not a clan society, that is a later aspect of highland Scotland, and is not from ancient Gaelic society).

    I guess I get impassioned over it because this was the beginning of the Irish golden age. Until around 1100, Ireland experienced a period of relative advancement in many fields compared to their neighbors (which slowed down during the 1000s, and recessed in the 1100s as they internalized more), as they hadn't experienced the negative effects of the dark ages, and kept going on their path of development and further then introduced Christianity and imported Greek learning (more Greek developments than Roman, didn't care for most Roman things for some reason). It so regularly gets painted as some anarchic backwater, but in this period it was a major political player and held alliances with the Byzantines and other major Christian powers. The faux-intellecual likes to say 'Ireland was divided up between hundreds of kings' to 'prove' Ireland was anarchic, but seems to forget that 'king' is a generic term in Gaelic society that is interchangeable with 'noble'. Every single noble title except 'Flath' (which just meant a 'noble office' in this period, but came to mean a prince) was derived from a word for king. However, the kings were not indepedent, and were loyal to Coicid Ri (King of a Fifth)/Riruire (King Over Kings), and in the cases of the early genuine high kings like Niall, the Ri Eireannacht (King of the Irish/Ireland, not 'Ard Ri', which is a later term). There were some nominally indepedent lesser kings (like the Fuire of the Aran islands was often indepedent for a long time), but most of them held loyalty to at least a provincial king. Below them were Boaire, who are sometimes maligned by modern speakers as 'kings', but they clearly weren't. They weren't real nobles and could pass on land by blood (that was the only thing children of nobles were guaranteed, they'd inherit a parcel of land, because every noble was also a Boaire, but most Boaires were not nobles). A Boaire was effectively just any wealthy farm owner or businessman, who divided his territory up into 'treb' to be managed by his Ocairi, typically his relatives.
    Last edited by Anthony; September 13, 2006 at 10:26 AM.

  2. #2
    Ramon Gonzales y Garcia's Avatar Nobleza y Valor
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    New York (Long Island)
    Posts
    1,743

    Default Re: About Britain/Ireland in mod

    I think you would love Arthurian:Total War http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=107
    Ramon Gonzales y Garcia

    INVASIO BARBARORVM II



    Proud patron of Riothamus, Pompeius Magnus and SeniorBatavianHorse
    If we had gone so far, it is because we stand on the shoulders of giants

  3. #3

    Default Re: About Britain/Ireland in mod

    I know, I've helped with it before.

  4. #4
    Slaxx Hatmen's Avatar This isn't the crisis!
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    The Living End
    Posts
    3,081

    Default Re: About Britain/Ireland in mod

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony
    Just wanted to give some ideas of the non-Roman portions of the British isles. Haven't played mod yet, so keep that in mind (intend to, but BI has been giving me trouble). I tend to just go about forums and mods and chime in on this in historically-minded mods.

    Of the Picts and Gaels, the bigger threat to Roman-Britons were Gaels. Niall became king of Ireland early in the period (after seizing the forts at Teamhair {Tara}, Eamain Macha {Navan}, and Ard Macha {Armagh}), and was an associate of the Picts, and armed them (Gaels had far more iron). Picts themselves were becoming more Gaelic (until they began dressing sort of like them; wearing knee-length shirts and going bare-legged and such, but they didn't have the strict clothing laws), though they lacked the large amount of weapons Gaels had, spoke their own language, etc. Picts rarely conducted more than raids in the north. More of a threat to the southern Caledonian kingdoms (Gododdin, Strathclyde, Galwyddel) than the Roman Britons, though they did obviously raid deep at times. However, Niall raided deep in Britain and Gaels actually established kingdoms (Dyfedd was originally ruled by Irish lords subservient to the Eoganacht of Munster) or territorial holdings, and served as far as the Alps as mercenaries. Picts seemed more interested in maintaining their territories (mind also that Niall took submission payments from the Picts for a brief period, but that's possibly what led to his death; they got tired of paying them, and he went to Pictland to fight them, was ambushed and killed, though that's only one account of his death; another is he was serving with other Gaelic mercenaries in the Roman army and was killed in the Alps, another was he was strangled at sea by the treasonous Riruire of Leinster). I don't expect you to change faction selection, it just kind of struck me as odd, but I guess more people are familiar with the Picts at the time. However, I do hope Ireland at least isn't using Pictish units; they weren't the same, and we actually know what the Gaelic military structure was (after the Irish converted they wrote an awful lot, and regularly about the army and how it worked, which shows more sophistication than one may expect). They are not remotely similar to late medieval Irish armies (which CA seemed to assume), and dressed completely different than 'Celts'. Gaels were demi-Celts, not genuine Celts, and looked a lot different; that's a problem everyone seems to make, assuming that the inhabitants of Ireland were 'Celts' in the vein of Gauls or Britons, but they were vastly different people who had absorbed Celtic influences but had their own society and aspects of their life.

    And now, onto that, sorry if this gets longwinded. The army is divided into three main bodies (though one is mercenaries). Almost everyone carried darts (gassu or gae varieties) or throwing spears. I don't know if it's any use at this point, but here it is.

    The Ceithernn (Warband), which became 'kerns', but quite different in this period. The Ceithernn are levies, and divided themselves into a few sub-groupings, the 'Ceithernn' in the strict sense (levies of little trained people; also the lowest rank who ever fought; by law every settlement carried enough darts and small shields for every able bodied man and woman, so this was as close as they came to 'peasants'), the Fianadi (semi-professional soldiers who acted as light infantry), and Bogclocernn (missiles, usually slings), who were provided largely the same as the other lower Ceithernn. The Ceithernn wore tights, shoes, and a thigh length shirt, and typically shaved their faces clean, and wore their hair straight and long. Only the uppermost, the Fianadi, wore any armor (a padded jacket), and often a fur cloak. Fianadi were typically afforded a spear or sword (mind that Gaelic swords were wide, short flat blades usually, which resembled a gladius, and were drawn from the same source, an Iberian sword) in addition to a shield (usually a fairly big round shield) and some javelins. The lower Ceithernn were guaranteed a spear and a clutch of darts, and a little round shield, and little else.

    The Cliarthairi ('Troopers'), the volunteer regulars drawn from the ranching and business estates. The Cliarthairi dressed in a knee-length shirt with no trousers, and wore cloaks with colors and patterns (stripes, plaid, or checkers) and that designated their social rank (but not clan affiliation, that's tartan and comes centuries and centuries later, and is Scottish). The upper part of the ignoble Cliarthairi were Dhiolmaini. A Cliarthaire was assigned to a portion of a regiment (a ruta) based on what armaments he possessed. Every Cliarthairi had to provide a spear, two throwing spears, a shield (usually an oval shield), and a dagger. He would then be given a heavy padded coat. If he had wealth or a generous Fuire (a county-king, the lowest rank of Gaelic nobility) or Boaire (the highest ignoble rank, the owner of a farm estate), he would carry a sword of a similar type to what Fianadi carried, but better quality, and usually just a bit longer, and a round helmet. Most Gaelic horse was from the lowest type of Cliarthairi. They had to provide their own horse, but had to qualify on it as well (throwing javelins through rings). Cliarthairi trained one month out of every four months, including one week each of those months with the Ceithernn (and two with the Fianadi), so that the levies could march with them properly and understood how to follow commands. The uppermost part of the ignoble Cliarthairi was usually the Curadi (champions from among ignoblemen).

    The Aire (noblemen and their retainers) were technically part of the Cliarthairi. However, the uppermost of them wore robes instead, and fuller helmets with cheekguards, and armor above padding (bronze chest plates, scale armor, lamellar, or mail in the case of the upper most of them). They include the Arras (Oath-Friends, bodyguards of noblemen of the rank of Ruire or higher; that is, the actual kings and immediate sub-kings), the Deaisbard (the bodyguards of Fuire), the Loachi and Milidhi (noble champions and heroes). Mind that one was not necessarily born into a noble position; you would be 'elected' via tanistry. There was no genuinely blood-inheritance. While bloodlines affected the selection of the heir a totally unrelated heir could be and often was selected (that nonsense with 'Celtic noble clansmen' being in their position by birth is completely inaccurate). Wealthy enough, also, were they to afford actual long bladed swords more similar to the spatha, but of local make and design, and derived in general from old styles (Gaels seemed to carry a notable contempt for most Roman goods; they don't show up in Ireland far from the Roman forts on the coast, and, as such, with the exception of some small goods, most Gaelic objects seem largely derived from older designs of Celtic or Iberian objects).

    Gaels fought in formations akin to shieldwalls much of the time in the Cliarthairi and up, with charges being done by the Ceithernn or Deisi tribes (Deisi, or vassal, tribes had 'Cliarthairi' but they were equipped lighter, usually totally unarmored but for a shield, and just dressed like Cliarthairi; the Deisi also worked as mercenaries for foreigners regular, and may have been the 'Attacotti' the Romans hired) while the Cliarthairi approached, usually with the Marcshulaidh (cavalry) doing flanking manuevers. The nobles and champions were spread in small blocks in the wall to encourage the men.

    Men were organized in multiples of 25 or 50, up to 500 men in a single rutati (a sub-regiment/company). Each one of these groups in the Cliarthairi had a standard (a regional banner usually), a hornblower, and a Cobticc (a captain, drawn from the Ocairi, the farm managers, and Boairi); the Ceithernn acted as 'attachments' and took commands from a captain, but had no standard or horn. Commands were given by the hornblower of the leader of an army, and were repeated by the hornblowers of each troop. There were totally irregular troops, but they were typically mercenaries (Gasraidh, 'rabble') or fanatics in pagan Ireland (naked spearmen were apparently popular with pagan Irish in some capacity; with the exception of these, Gaels never fought shirtless, they could be fined for it). The actual Rutama (the army) obeyed a hierarchy though based on ranks of high social rank ignobles then the noble grades.

    Some other notes; mustaches were worn by the middle class and up, but not beards usually. Beards were rarely worn by anyone but upper nobles or the otherwise wealthy. People rose and bathed in a washtub with soap, and shaved clean of their bodyhair (it was considered too dirty and kept dirt on the body, a holdover from the Celtic cleanliness moors). Health and sanitation were not remotely new concepts, though they were bolstered when Christianity was introduced (Ireland became the most major repository of Greek medical knowledge in western Europe outside of Italy during the first half of the dark ages and still had a very dense population until the Renaissance era and ultimately the potato famine; Ireland had a population relatively equal to that of Britain most of the time, but denser overall due to Ireland's smaller size), with actual hospitals being built in the major forts (though two were destroyed by the Norse and the third by the Normans who then built a new one over it). The hermitic and monastic tradition was also heavily refined there (seems silly in BI that Celts didn't have monasteries when they clearly did). Something a bit older; Ireland is home to the oldest intact 'highway' in Europe (from around 200 BC), a wood-plank road that was of a type common of Celts between their major forts (most of the roads remained for some time, but were ripped up in various periods, and replaced with stone roads during the middle ages). Clans, while they 'existed' in a very loose sense, were not and are not a major component of traditional Irish society. The traditional component was a Fine (family), and above that, a Tuath (tribe), the Fine being substantially smaller than later clans, and the Tuath, substantially larger (Noble clansmen again, made no sense; Gaels were not a clan society, that is a later aspect of highland Scotland, and is not from ancient Gaelic society).

    I guess I get impassioned over it because this was the beginning of the Irish golden age. Until around 1100, Ireland experienced a period of relative advancement in many fields compared to their neighbors (which slowed down during the 1000s, and recessed in the 1100s as they internalized more), as they hadn't experienced the negative effects of the dark ages, and kept going on their path of development and further then introduced Christianity and imported Greek learning (more Greek developments than Roman, didn't care for most Roman things for some reason). It so regularly gets painted as some anarchic backwater, but in this period it was a major political player and held alliances with the Byzantines and other major Christian powers. The faux-intellecual likes to say 'Ireland was divided up between hundreds of kings' to 'prove' Ireland was anarchic, but seems to forget that 'king' is a generic term in Gaelic society that is interchangeable with 'noble'. Every single noble title except 'Flath' (which just meant a 'noble office' in this period, but came to mean a prince) was derived from a word for king. However, the kings were not indepedent, and were loyal to Coicid Ri (King of a Fifth)/Riruire (King Over Kings), and in the cases of the early genuine high kings like Niall, the Ri Eireannacht (King of the Irish/Ireland, not 'Ard Ri', which is a later term). There were some nominally indepedent lesser kings (like the Fuire of the Aran islands was often indepedent for a long time), but most of them held loyalty to at least a provincial king. Below them were Boaire, who are sometimes maligned by modern speakers as 'kings', but they clearly weren't. They weren't real nobles and could pass on land by blood (that was the only thing children of nobles were guaranteed, they'd inherit a parcel of land, because every noble was also a Boaire, but most Boaires were not nobles). A Boaire was effectively just any wealthy farm owner or businessman, who divided his territory up into 'treb' to be managed by his Ocairi, typically his relatives.
    Thanks but we arent planning on doing any mods for Britian ATM.
    Under the patronage of Basileos Leandros I

  5. #5

    Default Re: About Britain/Ireland in mod

    Wasn't bout Britain specifically, but rather rebels in Ireland more than anything, though I do like to be thorough.

  6. #6
    Slaxx Hatmen's Avatar This isn't the crisis!
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    The Living End
    Posts
    3,081

    Default Re: About Britain/Ireland in mod

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony
    Wasn't bout Britain specifically, but rather rebels in Ireland more than anything, though I do like to be thorough.
    Well theres certianly enough info there to do more than just rebels my friend! I'd love to see a Gaelic faction in the future(*Drools over the thought of Gaels vs.WRE*) and will take this information to heart when thinking of it. Thanks Anthony.
    Under the patronage of Basileos Leandros I

  7. #7

    Default Re: About Britain/Ireland in mod

    It would be nice to see, but doubt it'd happen, though if there is any period on a major scale in Europe where one could reasonably exist and be realistically influential, it's the dark ages. It kind of struck me as odd the Picts were chosen over them (as noted above), because they didn't really do over much except fight in Britain (Gaels fought in the Roman empire as mercenaries, but that could be rectified with just having 'Attacotti' or 'Deisi' mercenaries available in Britain and northern Gaul), and numerous early royal lineages claimed Gaelic descent due to their invasions (Dyfedd, Brittany, and Cornwall all had distinctive Gaelic dynasties at one point or another) and intermarriages (including with Romans in Britain, which resulted in numerous relations between early Roman-British kings and sub-kings and Gaelic aristocracy).

    Even the Picts themselves were under heavy Gaelic influence (which ultimately modified their style of dress and naming customs; originally they looked more like pre-Roman Celtic Britons, often fighting barechest with trousers, but they adopted the Gaelic leine {long-shirt}, though modified it sometimes to wear plaid on it, the Gaelic brat {shoulder cloak, which they apparently wore incorrectly, but it was there}, and numerous Gaelic weapons and items came into their use, and they began using 'ni' and 'mac' in their paternal namings instead of the British 'map' or 'ap', implying some linguistic adoption, likely due to Irish missionaries). I don't object to the Picts necessarily and doubt anyone is willing to make a faction change, just, kind of struck me offside. At the least though, some well done rebels would be nice to see (ATW has nice enough Gaels, but they need minor touch ups, specifically more oval shields, as the round shield was used mainly for shock troops and some horse, but line soldiers and the upper shock troops tended to carry oval shields). And a Deisi mercenary or two would be nice; akin to Gaelic soldiers typically, but they wore much less armor (Gaels actually had a fairly large supply of light armor worn by the regulars, but Deisi regulars had no gaurantee of any armor and typically fought without it, except maybe a helmet, and their shield, which was usually a bit lighter, though they were, in Ireland at least, gauranteed more javelins, or even throwing spears, as opposed to darts given to most soldiers, and were notable more for their powerful charges rather than line fighting, which was augmented by their heavier missiles).

    The swords in ATW could also use a touch up, most are a bit long. The typical Gaelic sword was very similar to a gladius (the style itself predated their contact with Romans though and is clearly of Iberian derivation, like the gladius itself), with a wide flat blade used for stabbing, though it had a cutting edge. They were actually of pretty good quality usually (not necessarily stellar, but good); Ireland was not as plentiful in iron as Iberian or Gaul had been, so when they made swords they focused on their quality. Longswords in the hands of ignobles (or at least those below Boairi) were pretty uncommon except in some specific iron-rich regions where they could be produced more cheaply, which saw the lower Cliarthairi open to being able to purchase a longer sword, though they were usually lower quality and more a mass produced piece. It wasn't really until the early golden age when they stepped up trade of books for iron (usually with the eastern Roman empire; they had poorer relations with the west, especially seeing as Gaels were serving as well in the armies of Franks and other Germans looking for mercenaries to help fight Rome) that swords became a common object owned by most of the warrior class (though a single-edged long dagger was a common object owned by almost all of the free class; it eventually evolved into the medieval skein).

    The period for Gaels is quite interesting stuff, culturally in particular, but militarily as well, just because it provides possibly the clearest look at an un-Romanized Celtic-style military, and shows off a level of complexity that isn't usually attributed to them, and is a style reminiscent (though not identical) to the later feual systems, and involved organized, regimental units that had to train, and recieved pay (though it was not standardized pay, it was based on experience and reported actions of one's feats). At the least, examination of it might provide incite into the Picts to making them more realistic. Key in understanding is that it was not a disorganized horde, but a fairly organized military structure (not as organized as the Romans, obviously, but more organized than just getting together a horde of warriors to charge blindly at an enemy). There was a method of battlefield command (horns and standards), a knowledge of combined arms focuses (the still in translation Arnaga ('Battle-Craft') notes the use of lines of men armed differently to maximize their effectiveness in a large engagement). A lot of people focus too much on 'clan war', which is hardly reminiscent of actual large scale battles, and was more about earning honor and settling a legal dispute (it was actually a branch of law that was a way to settle out of court in case of a mistrial; the fight itself may not even involve any deaths in some cases, and instead be done by two champions who fight only to drawing blood a set number of times). A good rule of thumb in general is to assume very little about them, but because most modern assumptions are not remotely close to what it was actually like.

    And I'm rambling again, sorry bout that. I just like to hope any of it can possibly help in any way, and I like to make note of small details, because they give a clearer picture of things and help allay mistaken assumption. If there is ever any need for the information on this or any future projects, I love to babble and would enjoy helping. As for Gaels versus the WRE...well, it did happen. Niall invaded Roman Britain at the request of the Picts, and did quite a bit of damage before retreating; Gaelic raids were a genuine threat and served to make Britain highly unprofitable for the Romans.

  8. #8
    Slaxx Hatmen's Avatar This isn't the crisis!
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    The Living End
    Posts
    3,081

    Default Re: About Britain/Ireland in mod

    I know, I tend to babble sometimes myself. And beleave me, I dont think the Picts would be terribly missed as a faction if they were removed.(Last I checked they didint recieve very favorable feedback from the fans in 1.5)
    Under the patronage of Basileos Leandros I

  9. #9

    Default Re: About Britain/Ireland in mod

    Well, if any genuine interest comes to exist in swapping them, I'm all for helping, know extensively the history and capabilities of them at the time. Oh, of ATW again, the dinuadda claiomhnaghta are an interesting unit (two-handed swords did see some recorded use by champions), but the sword is too big and of a much later type I think; the sword in the period would be relatively the length of a spatha, just with a longer 'Gaelic' grip (no or little hilt guard, a round, decorated grip with a flared pommel).
    Last edited by Anthony; September 20, 2006 at 09:31 PM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: About Britain/Ireland in mod

    I like a lot the Picts. They are in all the books I have read about the Fall of the Roman Empire. I will miss them a lot and in my opinion it would have been picts or scots.

  11. #11

    Default Re: About Britain/Ireland in mod

    Scots in a strict sense didn't exist yet. 'Scotti' was just a (derogatory) slang term for Gaels, specifically Gaelic pirates and raiders (and was then freely applied to Gaelic inhabitants of the Pictish coasts, who were Dalriatta from Ireland). However, it came to be the regular Latin term for all Gaels (for example, the term for the king of all Ireland in Latin in the Catholic Church was 'Scotorum Imperator'; 'Emperor of the Irish/Scots, Gaels'). The reason Picts are mentioned so much is that they were adjacent to imperial territories, and that the Romans really had no concept of what the Pictish political landscape was like (for example that they were being armed by Gaelic kings). 'Scots', as they would come to be, were Gaels from Ireland, and having 'Scotti' would be totally erroneous and ahistoric (they were a tiny, almost totally unimportant group for centuries, and in this period were regularly subverted to an Irish king or a Pictish one). The Irish kept record of what was going on fairly well after converting.
    Last edited by Anthony; September 20, 2006 at 10:03 PM.

  12. #12
    PhilipO'Hayda's Avatar Vicarius
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Éire, in the Kingdom of Munster
    Posts
    2,640

    Default Re: About Britain/Ireland in mod

    Well this is a very good read and anyone doing mods in Ireland right now for Attila should give this a read.

    Irish Historical adviser for Albion:Total war


  13. #13

    Default Re: About Britain/Ireland in mod

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilipO'Hayda View Post
    Well this is a very good read and anyone doing mods in Ireland right now for Attila should give this a read.
    Hi PhilipO'Hayda. Agree with you. In IB2 Britaaniae there are the Picts who were native to Scotland(Northern and Southern Pics differed somehat). Dal Raita is in a small part of South West Scotland. They were I believe a people(Scotti) used as a buffer between the Pics and the Romano British peoples. There was an existing peoiple there I believe who had roots in Gaelic Ireland. They(a more reknown military like people) were likely accelerated in the region by the relocated by Magnus Maximus as it was a very comon Roman practice. Alt Clut, the powerful Bryhtonic Romano British Kingdom was a bit further south of Dal Raita but adjacent to the Kingdom of Dal Raita ..The Scotti and they formed strong alliances with each other. The Gaels were in Ireland divided into several Gaelic factions. This we are well aware of and a part of our Attila mod project. This is actually part of my Masters studies so I think I have a pretty good understanding of this. The Vikings wiped out the power of the Picts so much of there history was covered over by the advancing Scotti who better survived the Viking onslaughts in the 9th century and most likely intermarried with the Pictish surviving nobles.

    Although Britain made great strides in reviving there status in the 5th century, they still need to be made not a major role in the Attila mod. Although saying that they could make a strong potential presence.
    Last edited by Riothamus; May 15, 2016 at 11:36 AM.

    Under the esteemed patronage of Ramon Gonzales y Garcia IB and IB2 Mod

  14. #14
    PhilipO'Hayda's Avatar Vicarius
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Éire, in the Kingdom of Munster
    Posts
    2,640

    Default Re: About Britain/Ireland in mod

    Give me a link to your mod there Riothamus, I'nd love to have a look at that. It'll be great if you could move this over to Attila forum. I would hate to lose all this information that is very handy, it's sucks that Anthony has been offline since 2007, I would love to see his work fix up the Irish in AOC.
    am going in to second year in both Celtic Civilisation and History in UCC and am doing a mod with Big Bad Wolf on 450AD Europe using the Attlia mod and put work in to Lóegaire mac Néill and his fighting with the Déisi Muman and Déisi Temro. also going to try and learn modding this week, Ireland is in the middle of a Golden age. Sick of his just been kicked to the side here.
    Last edited by PhilipO'Hayda; May 15, 2016 at 12:02 PM.

    Irish Historical adviser for Albion:Total war


  15. #15

    Default Re: About Britain/Ireland in mod

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilipO'Hayda View Post
    Give me a link to your mod there Riothamus, I'nd love to have a look at that. It'll be great if you could move this over to Attila forum. I would hate to lose all this information that is very handy, it's sucks that Anthony has been offline since 2007, I would love to see his work fix up the Irish in AOC.
    am going in to second year in both Celtic Civilisation and History in UCC and am doing a mod with Big Bad Wolf on 450AD Europe using the Attlia mod and put work in to Lóegaire mac Néill and his fighting with the Déisi Muman and Déisi Temro. also going to try and learn modding this week, Ireland is in the middle of a Golden age. Sick of his just been kicked to the side here.
    Will do

    Under the esteemed patronage of Ramon Gonzales y Garcia IB and IB2 Mod

  16. #16

    Default Re: About Britain/Ireland in mod

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilipO'Hayda View Post
    Give me a link to your mod there Riothamus, I'nd love to have a look at that. It'll be great if you could move this over to Attila forum. I would hate to lose all this information that is very handy, it's sucks that Anthony has been offline since 2007, I would love to see his work fix up the Irish in AOC.
    am going in to second year in both Celtic Civilisation and History in UCC and am doing a mod with Big Bad Wolf on 450AD Europe using the Attlia mod and put work in to Lóegaire mac Néill and his fighting with the Déisi Muman and Déisi Temro. also going to try and learn modding this week, Ireland is in the middle of a Golden age. Sick of his just been kicked to the side here.
    Click the threasd below PhilipO'Hayda and thast will get you to the forums site
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forum...NNIAE-RELEASED

    Under the esteemed patronage of Ramon Gonzales y Garcia IB and IB2 Mod

  17. #17
    PhilipO'Hayda's Avatar Vicarius
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Éire, in the Kingdom of Munster
    Posts
    2,640

    Default Re: About Britain/Ireland in mod

    A! Medieval 2 when you could do some really good work, till Windows 10 blocked me from doing so.

    Irish Historical adviser for Albion:Total war


  18. #18

    Default Re: About Britain/Ireland in mod

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilipO'Hayda View Post
    A! Medieval 2 when you could do some really good work, till Windows 10 blocked me from doing so.
    I haven't uploaded windows 10. I have been hearing horror stories for the modding world.

    Under the esteemed patronage of Ramon Gonzales y Garcia IB and IB2 Mod

  19. #19

    Default Re: About Britain/Ireland in mod

    M2tw somehow works for me on Windows 10 without any tweaks. Just in case I disabled the virtual storage thing for mods.

    However yeah I don't really like it lol, had to disable hordes of surveillance functions and tweak some startup stuff that kept hogging my limited RAM (toaster pc that can barely run Rome 2's campaign map, well at least compared to many gaming enthusiasts that I have on my steam friendslist) haha.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •