Something Missing That Made Rome I So Good (And mods might not fix it)

[agent 47]

I just cant get into this game at all as the Romans. I couldn't put my finger on it but then i realised.

The way the "civilized" nations act on the battlefield is simply no different to the barbarian factions. Whats worse is the game is made in a way that you just cant use them like in Rome I.

In the first Rome i used to always play defensively in battle, conserving fatigue and keeping order with guard mode, unleashing hails of javelins on the approaching enemy. This was the most effective way to play the Romans and to some extent the other civilized nations and it gave them a unique flavour.
It gave playing as the civilized factions, a feeling that your troops were cold, professional machine like soldiers, who felt no emotion in battle and were just following orders, grinding through the enemy like it was their days work.

As for the barbarians, they would throw all they had at you and rightfully so because to some extent this was the most effective way for them to fight, taking into account things like charge bonus and lower defensive stats and as such they would tire over the course of the battle because they weren't fighting defensively (Using guard mode essentially).

These two contrasting styles in fighting are what made Rome 1 for me, it looked beautiful seeing order against chaos like that, cold professional soldiers against emotional and tougher men, but still prevailing. On the other hand as the barbarians it felt great to get the better of the civilized nations because your men looked and played like they were fighting for a cause, each man trying to prove himself in battle.


Now, after playing quite a bit of Rome 2, i feel this is completely missing. The civilized factions units don't keep formation at all and you cant fight defensively without losing the ability to throw your javelins. Essentially now everyone fights like the barbarians in Rome 1, there's no strong contrast to their fighting styles on the battlefield. Sure, there might be in stats but the visual appeal just isn't there. Theres no neat, almost sterile look to the roman approach to war contrasted against the older traditional ways of fighting. IT ALL LOOKS THE SAME.

[universalmind]

I also used to do that in Rome 1, and this is my biggest problem with Rome 2.

[BeastG33]

Agreed 100%. This isn't even possible in Rome 2:

[jtfjtfjtf]

I agree. I remember in the stats file for the units they would have a line based on discipline. Really disciplined almost always maintained a squared formation. The peasants would have the lowest discipline setting and they'd be a spread out mass. It's like everyone in Rome 2 has the 2nd to lowest discipline setting from Rome 1. I seriously think CA just expects players to throw units at each other with the lack of a guard button and also lack of tight and loose formations. Bad CA! Bad!

[Swerg]

It's certainly true. I remember a major thing for Rome in particular was holding a line. As long as you kept your men organized, a couple units of Hastati could hold off a barbarian horde ten times their size. In this game...it doesn't matter. Units just devolve into blobs after initial contact.

I think another thing that's lacking is 'set up' time for the formations. All that awkward shuffling in Rome I for units to get into place when you clicked testudo or phalanx is gone...OK, it was annoying, but the current system where units instantly zap into formation is worse (to me, anyway.)

Somehow, I don't see CA fixing either of these problems...I hope that the 'most moddable TW ever' features some resources to help modders put things right.

[universalmind]

Some units in Rome 2 have an attribute that causes them to stay in formation while fighting, but the fact that battles end in 2-3 minutes means this is more detrimental to their fighting ability than anything else. The point of staying in formation is to outlast the enemy so you can either out maneuver or preserve your unit's overall strength, but when everything has such high attack everyone will die in a small amount of hits anyway so what's the point? Right now it's just about making sure you charge for the spear throw, and press every cool down as fast as you can.

[Evan MF]

I've banged on about it everywhere I can. It's the Warscape engine. It completely fails at depicting proper unit cohesion, has awful collision mechanics in melee and gives no sense of weight to units. On the RTW engine you had a much better intuitive sense of what was going on by just looking at the unit's physical state, that is not the case in Warscape Total Wars, it's just a flimsy mess that relies on shiney 'visual aids' to tell you what's going on, coupled with gimmicky 'strategic' add-ons in the form of magical 'special abilities' that are somehow meant to enhance the innately detaching experience. Total War is far from it's soul in Rome 2. It's about time Warscape was trashed and a new engine that is actually designed for melee with intuitive and informative particle collisions is developed.

[Eikki]

Has anyone figured out how to avoid friendly fire when charging in your legionaries from the flanks in a melee where your troops are already involved? Because for me I've managed to kill and rout my own troops due to the unavoidable charge javelin spam.

[cherryfunk]

Agreed 100%. This isn't even possible in Rome 2:

For starters, Rome 2 can't have that many men in a unit.

[keldor]

Im on my 3rd nation, just doesnt feel like total war. Plus Some of the factions start out in minor regions, you dont even control the provincial capital. For instance Parthia or Pontus. And no Family tree. And on top of that the other stuff that was taken out that people already said. Cant even zoom out on campaign map that far, a cheap trick to make it look like its a big map.

This game should be called Rome II King Arthur. More similarity with that game than a total war game.

[AngryGiant]

Cant even zoom out on campaign map that far, a cheap trick to make it look like its a big map.

I don't care how far you can zoom out, the map is big, even if there is a bunch of impassable terrain. I would love to be able to zoom out, and then have the strategic overview be past a certain point. Would have made a lot of sense to integrate them that way instead of just putting a button. Then again, with the FPS drops from selecting a unit, I'm sure half the map wouldn't be able to be rendered on most peoples computers so they made it so you couldn't.

[kiwimaster]

RotS did what you're talking about just fine on the same engine, though. Not sure why CA got rid of standard features present in all previous games like guard mode, tight formation, and loose formation just for Rome 2, however.

[bumblebee]

If it's accessible, wouldn't modding the discipline, health, attack, and defense values of the units in game give us more of the Rome I feeling you're looking for? It wouldn't get you the squared formations that are shown in the picture that's posted, but fights would become more drawn out, allowing for more maneuvering on the battlefield.

I'm not a fan of combat being over too quick, which is what soured Shogun 2 for me.

[agent 47]

If it's accessible, wouldn't modding the discipline, health, attack, and defense values of the units in game give us more of the Rome I feeling you're looking for? It wouldn't get you the squared formations that are shown in the picture that's posted, but fights would become more drawn out, allowing for more maneuvering on the battlefield.

I'm not a fan of combat being over too quick, which is what soured Shogun 2 for me.

The main thing is the lack of unit cohesion though and the javelins incentivise breaking what little unit cohesion there is, since you cant throw javelins without charging. These are the things i meant mods might not be able to fix.

[BeastG33]

I just played a game to test the cohesion of soldiers and infantry lines. I sat my 5 units of legionaries in a line, grouped them, put them in "group formation," and let some Gauls crash into one of them. The unit that fought immediately did a random 90 degree wheel (presumably to keep unit cohesion--you can tell there is some coding or some attribute in the game whereby units try to start together) but the point is, I didn't want that unit to wheel. It left a huge hole in my line and basically gave me no tactical advantage. You know what fixes this problem? Guard mode. Why was that removed again?

Of course all of my troops had full ammo after the fight because no one charged therefore no pila were thrown... really, really sensible design choice.

What made me lol at the end of the battle was the troops actually put themselves back into formation after the fight. Like how they should have remained the entire time. So it was like this:

Before battle: cohesive line / nice formation
Fighting: instantly start wheeling and moving around and blobbing
After battle: back into line / nice formation

......

[Samer312]

I mean what ever happen the revolution, evolution schedule Total war games were suppose to have? (shogun=revolution, Medieval=evolution, Rome=revolution, Medieval II=evolution, Empire=revolution......... Napoleon, Shogun II, and Rome II are all evolutions) The Warscape Engine was not designed for melee combat its as simple as that

[Smartbomb]

I mean what ever happen the revolution, evolution schedule Total war games were suppose to have? (shogun=revolution, Medieval=evolution, Rome=revolution, Medieval II=evolution, Empire=revolution......... Napoleon, Shogun II, and Rome II are all evolutions) The Warscape Engine was not designed for melee combat its as simple as that

Pretty much everything this guy said about Empire applies to Rome 2



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naQaRIaXyAU

Combat is ....Sorry everyone, but this isn't good and I don't really think it's terrible, but not good......NOT GOOD at all.

[donkixot]

Whats bugging me is that my legionaries never get tired. They can run half of the battlefield, fight a big group of enemies, run some more and still be fresh

[SonOfCrusader76]

I just cant get into this game at all as the Romans. I couldn't put my finger on it but then i realised.

The way the "civilized" nations act on the battlefield is simply no different to the barbarian factions. Whats worse is the game is made in a way that you just cant use them like in Rome I.

In the first Rome i used to always play defensively in battle, conserving fatigue and keeping order with guard mode, unleashing hails of javelins on the approaching enemy. This was the most effective way to play the Romans and to some extent the other civilized nations and it gave them a unique flavour.
It gave playing as the civilized factions, a feeling that your troops were cold, professional machine like soldiers, who felt no emotion in battle and were just following orders, grinding through the enemy like it was their days work.

As for the barbarians, they would throw all they had at you and rightfully so because to some extent this was the most effective way for them to fight, taking into account things like charge bonus and lower defensive stats and as such they would tire over the course of the battle because they weren't fighting defensively (Using guard mode essentially).

These two contrasting styles in fighting are what made Rome 1 for me, it looked beautiful seeing order against chaos like that, cold professional soldiers against emotional and tougher men, but still prevailing. On the other hand as the barbarians it felt great to get the better of the civilized nations because your men looked and played like they were fighting for a cause, each man trying to prove himself in battle.


Now, after playing quite a bit of Rome 2, i feel this is completely missing. The civilized factions units don't keep formation at all and you cant fight defensively without losing the ability to throw your javelins. Essentially now everyone fights like the barbarians in Rome 1, there's no strong contrast to their fighting styles on the battlefield. Sure, there might be in stats but the visual appeal just isn't there. Theres no neat, almost sterile look to the roman approach to war contrasted against the older traditional ways of fighting. IT ALL LOOKS THE SAME.

Agreed 100%. Those clowns over in the 'This isn't the old TW anymore and I love it' thread need to read this post.

I am growing more and more concerned that this is one TW game the modders won't be able to save. And it had to be Rome 2, didn't it??

[SonOfCrusader76]

The main thing is the lack of unit cohesion though and the javelins incentivise breaking what little unit cohesion there is, since you cant throw javelins without charging. These are the things i meant mods might not be able to fix.

Unless it's possible for the modders to give the infantry the fire at will ability?

To be honest, I'd be prepared to overlook a great many of the game's faults were it not for the fact that 90% of battles are crappy minor city battles, which all look the same, all play the same and all have the same army! And the other 10% are ruined by 'Capture the ing flag'.