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Thread: Diplomacy sucks so bad...

  1. #61
    General Maximus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Diplomacy sucks so bad...

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    But... that option is still there and I've used it over 12 times to make satrapies. I also play with Parthia and I have more satrapies than the Seleucids used to have.
    Is it the 'Subjugate' option you are talking about?

    I haven't used it till yet, but if it really is the 'create protectorate/vassal' button from the two previous games, it is good to know that the option is still there.
    सार्वभौम सम्राट चत्रवर्ती - भारतवर्ष
    स्वर्गपुत्र पीतसम्राट - चीन
    महाराजानाभ्याम महाराजा - पारसिक

  2. #62
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Diplomacy sucks so bad...

    Yes and satrapies are more useful in this game. Kinda weird, but more useful. Once you drag them to a few wars with you (they come whather they hate you) their oppinion for you increases manyfold. Then you get trade with them (till the "next to no trade" thing sets on).

    Quite neat eh?Well that's not even half of it. They Really join wars with you. In weird and I may say perverse ways.

    I had the Qidri from Arabia and the Bactrians from India sending stack after stack to help me fight the Luigi in... the Caspia. Royal Scythia (also my vassal) was attacked an my Caspian allies held the first wave of enemies till my more distant vassals mobilized and started the (huge) treck to fight Ponto-Caspians.

    Till the time Qidri managed to get in the black sea, a faction holding a part of Macedonia declared war and now Qidri have 2 regions in Arabia aaaand a region in Northern Greece.What's the perverse about it? That they didn't help me fight in Africa. Egyptians have nearly reached Caspia and then turned back and I expect it will take them more than 6-7 turns to reach the African front...


    As a note, in a less perverse satrap assist, an ally of mine, Dahians, controling like 5-6 regions east of the Black sea backstabbed me and attacked a vassal of mine deep in Arabia. Then as I joined my vassal in war... they send 3-4 stacks in my lands. Well, as they did that, Armenians rushed forward and kicked their butt. Egyptians assisted me defending in Eastern Syria (that's where the Dahae attacked my provinces) and the Armenians broke the camel's back by taking 4 out of 5 of their provinces till I made Dahae my satrapy too.
    Last edited by alhoon; September 22, 2013 at 05:02 PM.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
    "Angry Uncle Gordon" describes me well.
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  3. #63

    Default Re: Diplomacy sucks so bad...

    i think there is a major dumb bug with subjugate that makes it very hard to keep them alive. Your other client states keep fighting them even after they have been subjugated. Really felt it with my Carthage campaign when i subjugated Cortuba and Nova Carhtage kept coming at them with half stacks until they got destroyed by their African neighbors. According to description of client state/satrapy, they have limited diplomatic decision making power. So why do they keep fighting even after their masters made peace... I find the only use for them if you don't plan to expand in the direction where faction is and want to have a friendly faction there until you ready to expand. Income you get from them is way to small to be reliant. Hell, Carthage has most of north Africa as client states at the start and all they get is 1k/turn.

  4. #64

    Default Re: Diplomacy sucks so bad...

    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorJulian View Post
    The reality of things was that the Seleucids had no hope of regaining their lost territories and though I was somewhat frozen due to my own issues, it would just be a matter of time before surrender would be the only alternative. So, will they accept a peace (of any kind)? Of course not!
    Looks like the only way for them to regain their lost territories is having your empire crumble away - they wont achieve that by taking pressure off you...

    It would be one thing if the AI had only become recalcitrant after my Civil War began, but this was going on for many turns beforehand. I don't have any interest in Amdummatu, Hegra and Charmuthas anyway; but alas peace can't be bought at any price and so with a two front war, I had to give up. There's just no way to win, and I'd hate to think how uppity the Seleucids would be if they managed to retake everything they lost.
    The AI probably had a better grasp of your internal poilitical situation than you had beforehand (not necessarily your fault - internal politics aren't transparent at all and look really unfinished atm).

    At any rate, maybe things are better on Normal in terms of AI sanity, but in that case the AI is a complete pushover; so it is, as always a Catch 22. Either have meaningful diplomatic relations, or have AI factions that are willing to fight back. Evidently we can't have both. Very sad.
    As a matter of fact, the AI showed some ingenuity there and behaved almost human - at least it did what I would have done if I had been in its place. Having 140 hours in the game on all legendarary campaigns (except my 'tutorial' campaign which was on VH), I found the diplomatic AI to be similary smart, which is quite the opposite of sad.

    What's sad is the lack of CAI and BAI to keep up with the occasional glances of brilliance the DAI shows, enabling humans to push them over without any effort.

    And what's even more sad is your lack of willingness to accept the slightest challenge in this far too easy game and giving up instead.

    I always rejoice if something similar happens to me, just to be disappointed how easy it is to actually deal with the situation.

  5. #65
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Diplomacy sucks so bad...

    Satrapies do not fight and they immediately go to peace with everyone they were at war with.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
    "Angry Uncle Gordon" describes me well.
    _______________________________________________________
    Beta-tester for Darthmod Empire, the default modification for Empire Total War that does not ask for your money behind patreon.
    Developer of Causa Belli submod for Darthmod, headed by Hammeredalways and a ton of other people.
    Developer of LtC: Random maps submod for Lands to Conquer (that brings a multitude of random maps and other features).

  6. #66
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Diplomacy sucks so bad...

    So... which factions make those pesky and irresponsible client states and which make the diplomacy-impaired satrapies?
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
    "Angry Uncle Gordon" describes me well.
    _______________________________________________________
    Beta-tester for Darthmod Empire, the default modification for Empire Total War that does not ask for your money behind patreon.
    Developer of Causa Belli submod for Darthmod, headed by Hammeredalways and a ton of other people.
    Developer of LtC: Random maps submod for Lands to Conquer (that brings a multitude of random maps and other features).

  7. #67
    General Maximus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Diplomacy sucks so bad...

    I never played on easy due to dumb AI, and never played on hard or above due to ridiculous AI. Normal is the only one I ever played.

    And AI is the issue in all things.
    सार्वभौम सम्राट चत्रवर्ती - भारतवर्ष
    स्वर्गपुत्र पीतसम्राट - चीन
    महाराजानाभ्याम महाराजा - पारसिक

  8. #68
    Libertus
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    Default Re: Diplomacy sucks so bad...

    From what I have seen it all boils down to who you are playing as. Just like
    in real life you have past relationships and they effect your present, same
    with the game as shown by the diplomacy pop up.
    Macedon seems to have pissed off most factions near them, so no one
    will really deal with them fairly. Rome doesn't seem to make treaties with
    anyone for whatever reason. Athens and Sparta are usually joined at the hip
    along with Egypt. Have only once seen those (Athens/Sparta) two at
    war and that was in a Sparta campaign of mine in which I rushed for Larissa.
    It must have pissed them off because they invaded in the second turn of the
    game (One of the FEW times the AI has declared on me for any reason) Was
    great to get Athens so early for so many reasons. One main one being trade
    the whole trade being directly linked to your capital blows, especially when
    your capital has no port but that is something else entirely.
    That all sad I do believe the diplomacy is better than any other TW game to
    date, though light years behind other games like Europa Universalis etc. I do
    hold out hope things will get solved in so many areas of this game. Really
    feels like a shell that has been left to unpaid modders to fix and make work

  9. #69

    Default Re: Diplomacy sucks so bad...

    So the OP is complaining that other nations are not rolling over and playing ball and want to negotiate with a little ŁŁŁ.

    Poor you, I bet your just a spambot type of player as well right?

    Try using some savvy and yes if you want them to play ball pay them, there's a nice balance of factions who want to do it for free, factions who try to gain and ones who just don't want you to get stronger ...... the way it should be.

    Stop whining!

  10. #70

    Default Re: Diplomacy sucks so bad...

    You only know how bad Diplomacy is, when every faction declares war on you within 3-4 turns. Even your trade partners and friendly factions. Even factions you never had relationsships with who are on the other side of the world. JUST EVERYONE. Could happen anytime. Happened to me twice. One time in early game, one time in late game (together with civil war). 20 war declarations within 4 turns, no trading partners left, 16 civil war full stacks,... ing whole Map was red. Just ridiculous!

  11. #71
    General Maximus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Diplomacy sucks so bad...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ansar Warrior View Post
    Stop whining!
    I didn't know there were still some CA apologists and counter-whiners left, even when hundreds of them disappeared overnight after 3 September.
    सार्वभौम सम्राट चत्रवर्ती - भारतवर्ष
    स्वर्गपुत्र पीतसम्राट - चीन
    महाराजानाभ्याम महाराजा - पारसिक

  12. #72

    Default Re: Diplomacy sucks so bad...

    It is the same as it is in all TW games, apart you have to give them a payment or two to sweeten the deal! Which does not matter as the income is far more substantial in this game than any other!

  13. #73

    Default Re: Diplomacy sucks so bad...

    Quote Originally Posted by General Maximus View Post
    I didn't know there were still some CA apologists and counter-whiners left, even when hundreds of them disappeared overnight after 3 September.
    Because I'm not a sheep!

    Let me make this clear ........ I know how to play the game, the game works fine for me especially after patch 2 which has made the battle scenes not one messy mosh pit, everything else works absolutely fine for me ....... so why should i hate it again?
    If the game is screwed up for some people I'd understand but if its working, we're playing the same game and the one I'm playing is pretty awesome.

  14. #74
    EmperorJulian's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Diplomacy sucks so bad...

    Quote Originally Posted by Niccolo Machiavelli View Post
    Looks like the only way for them to regain their lost territories is having your empire crumble away - they wont achieve that by taking pressure off you...



    The AI probably had a better grasp of your internal poilitical situation than you had beforehand (not necessarily your fault - internal politics aren't transparent at all and look really unfinished atm).



    As a matter of fact, the AI showed some ingenuity there and behaved almost human - at least it did what I would have done if I had been in its place. Having 140 hours in the game on all legendarary campaigns (except my 'tutorial' campaign which was on VH), I found the diplomatic AI to be similary smart, which is quite the opposite of sad.

    What's sad is the lack of CAI and BAI to keep up with the occasional glances of brilliance the DAI shows, enabling humans to push them over without any effort.

    And what's even more sad is your lack of willingness to accept the slightest challenge in this far too easy game and giving up instead.

    I always rejoice if something similar happens to me, just to be disappointed how easy it is to actually deal with the situation.
    Thanks for the reply - you make some good points, but looking back I think I didn't make my own case very well. Or at least I didn't quite get it across. I'm not quitting because there's "no way to win" as such. Although I think it's very likely if I lose all of Anatolia and Syria that my remaining forces would starve before I could make a counter attack, that's presuming the civil war stacks would move out of my capitol region, and there's no guarantee that they would, at that. I've got Nine quality armies in the field which would, under different circumstances make dealing with my civil war trivial - however if Rome 2 does do one thing right, it's giving you a food budget and that's very likely what would cause me to fail.

    That said, I'm rage quitting because I'm fed up with what the game is giving me. Not in terms of difficulty, but in terms of lack of features and complexity. You say that the AI probably had a better idea of where things were trending for me than I did, well amen to that. I couldn't have put it better myself. The fact is I can't make heads or tails of the political system, everything I do causes me to lose noble support and nothing I do wins it back. Gravitas, military victories, expansion, prestige - none of this has any effect on those recalcitrant "other families." If I marry, or bribe, or adopt I lose noble support, every time, without fail. As far as I can see there is NO way to gain votes amongst the nobility and if there is it's so well hidden I can't find it. I knew the Civil War was coming and frankly I felt I had no way to stop it, even as I watched my numbers tick down over the years.

    Then there's the nonexistent diplomatic system. From your perspective, I get why this would have an appeal, but let's be honest there's nothing realistic about the Seleucid satrapies following their master into some far flung war and having zero interest in pursuing an independent foreign policy. Particularly with Aria, they've already gained ground and lost several stacks in the process, I'm sure they'd be amenable to a peace offering (if I could make one... which, of course, I can't). What about Drangiana, they're even further afield and you're telling me they're so loyal to their overlord that they couldn't be bribed to go away? What about Persia - they've never deployed a single army against me, so they wouldn't consider a white peace? The lack of even basic diplomatic offers renders the only option of taking every province from every state that's at war with me, and honestly I don't want to do that. That's not my style and such conquest has no appeal for me. In truth I've already achieved my war aims and I have no interest in further conquest. But, that's not the half of it.

    The broken diplomatic "system" doesn't allow me to cut a very favorable deal with the Seleucids, a deal which surely would end the war - like returning the provinces I've taken for instance. Which I of course can't do, since that feature was removed. It doesn't just seem like diplomacy was dumbed down, it seems like CA is saying the only solution to any disagreement in Rome 2 is complete military victory. Again, that might appeal to some - but it doesn't appeal to me. Besides that it removes all strategic considerations anyway, as you're only possible goal is conquest - any other consideration being either impossible or exceedingly difficult. Like I said, I'm getting fed up with this. Diplomacy is important and I dare say it should be an integral part of Total War - divide and conquer and what have you. Too bad CA seems to disagree on that front. Anyway thanks for the reply.
    Under the Patronage of Valus the Indefatigable.

  15. #75
    General Maximus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Diplomacy sucks so bad...

    The lack of region-exchange option has bugged me ever since Shogun II. That game managed to somehow work without it since after some expansion, conquering everything was the only option left. But still that feature was really needed, there was no reason for CA to remove it at all.

    And in Rome II, without it all of the campaign is a mess.

    I seriously cannot decode the ingenius mind of the person who is designing this stupid diplomacy.
    सार्वभौम सम्राट चत्रवर्ती - भारतवर्ष
    स्वर्गपुत्र पीतसम्राट - चीन
    महाराजानाभ्याम महाराजा - पारसिक

  16. #76
    B. W.'s Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Diplomacy sucks so bad...

    Playing as Rome I didn't have any problems getting trade agreements. First I would get a non-aggression pact, wait a few turns and sometimes they would come back to me asking for a treaty. I quit playing because of that stupid and idiotic UI. I really hope they fix this game because I was really looking forward to it.

  17. #77
    EmperorJulian's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Diplomacy sucks so bad...

    As Pontus, I found it most frustrating that I could get no military allies, and beyond that no defensive allies save Pergamum. What I typically encountered was this; I could get trade agreements, but chiefly only with very minor powers and even then only with heavy bribes. I did also find it possible to get non-aggression pacts with the Greek States in the Aegean, but again only the small ones, like Rhodes, Knossos, and Sparta. That was about the end of it though, no major state would accept any diplomatic agreements from me, of any kind, for any amount of money or inducement. I saw no evidence that long-standing good relations would make factions more willing to treat with me, and I certainly never saw trade or non-aggression pacts leading to alliances of any sort. This was on hard difficulty and I can't imagine VH or Legendary would be any different. How -other- people seem to be bucking this trend is beyond me, either they're playing on Easy/Normal, or their copy of Rome II is different in some meaningful way.
    Under the Patronage of Valus the Indefatigable.

  18. #78
    Langer Kerl's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Diplomacy sucks so bad...

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    So... which factions make those pesky and irresponsible client states and which make the diplomacy-impaired satrapies?
    I remember reading a tooltip or something stating that this is decided by what culture the subjugated faction has relative to yours ...?

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