why can enemy sally forth during a night battle?

[RedGuard]

Now correct me if I'm wrong but whole point of a night battle is to catch your enemy off-guard and in the ancient world it was the same as today. Marines, Seals etc.. don't go fight the enemy at night because they love the cool air and not being able to see , its because its when the enemy is expecting to be able to relax and eat, and warm themselves to sleep. So why in the is the enemy alerted to my attack (a garrison in my title but really this goes for all night battles) the moment I make it. It should be akin to a ambush, however the defending army should probably be made aware of your presence and where you deploy but maybe give him no time to deploy his and his troops form where they are(like arcade mode, remember that feature?) but for damn sure a enemy should not sally forth from a town to attack your army that is sneaking up to the town to attack you, that is just the dumbest thing I ever heard.

two legionaries: "Romulus be quiet, we don't want the Gauls to wake, and make sure you look out for anyone taking a piss from too much wine so we can kill him quietly"

"Romulus: There's no need centurion. Caesar told the enemy we were attacking at night and instead of getting drunk they are standing in formation ready to kill us."

I guess CA never thought anyone would care, but damnit its just another one of those things, that as a military person myself and as a wannabe historian that sticks out like a sore thumb waiting to be cut off

[mmarekk11]

I dont know if you knew it, but I think the main point of night battles is that army which you want to attack can not be reinforced. And that is the hell great advatage.

[alQamar]

It's your torches mate, it's all about torches they are too bright, waking up freaking every soldier! Never bothered to play night battles?!



Rome 2



Rome 1

[GoTW Kubee]

It's like a ing spotlight lol.

[RedGuard]

I dont know if you knew it, but I think the main point of night battles is that army which you want to attack can not be reinforced. And that is the hell great advatage.

yeah sure that is the video gamey reason to use it. there should be other reason to as well though, and having your enemy sallie forth from a settlement during one is pretty stupid

@ALQAMAR, I dont know if you ever played Medal of honor Allied Assault, but the spotlights in that game when they saw you ahd a machine gunner that mowed you down and the night battles remind me of that and ww2 era air raid siren

[Cacciato]

Marines, Seals etc.. don't go fight the enemy at night because they love the cool air and not being able to see , its because its when the enemy is expecting to be able to relax and eat, and warm themselves to sleep.

To be fair it's usually because our military has the ability to fight at night (Thermal scopes, PVS-14s, etc) while the enemy typically doesn't.

[RedGuard]

To be fair it's usually because our military has the ability to fight at night (Thermal scopes, PVS-14s, etc) while the enemy typically doesn't.

sure that's a grand idea but in practice NVGs etc are more of a visibility hindrance (not as much as not having them) and are susceptible to white outs, bad batteries, lack of depth perception etc... Not to mention that most militaries now days have NVGs that are worth anything, but yeah its a huge advantage against say the Taliban.

But night battles were just as common in the ancient era and some cultures even praised it and practiced for it. There was a German tribe that colored their warriors in black.

I just think the sally forth thing is ridiculous when done at night(The AI should have no idea your attacking and should therefore not be able to sally forth)

[the lightning legion]

I agree whole heartedly with the OP

[Takizama]

Maybe the opposing army couldn't sleep or are vampires and they can sally forth at night.

[jonny duck]

Because they saw your silly Barbarian Invasion torches from a mile off?

[daelin4]

It's like a ing spotlight lol.

Can't be more wrong:

it IS a spotlight! *facepalms CA*

[Tiwaz]

sure that's a grand idea but in practice NVGs etc are more of a visibility hindrance (not as much as not having them) and are susceptible to white outs, bad batteries, lack of depth perception etc... Not to mention that most militaries now days have NVGs that are worth anything, but yeah its a huge advantage against say the Taliban.

An idiot goes into night battle with NVG without fresh set of batteries set in.
And when was last time US military fought army that was worth anything? As in, same or superior technological level? Not in decades. If marines DID fight such enemy, they would not be so eager to engage in night combat precisely because the playing field would be too even.

But night battles were just as common in the ancient era and some cultures even praised it and practiced for it. There was a German tribe that colored their warriors in black.

I just think the sally forth thing is ridiculous when done at night(The AI should have no idea your attacking and should therefore not be able to sally forth)

No, they really weren't that common. All cats are grey at night and so forth.
There is also issue you fail to remember. Your OWN troops cannot form up magically and silently. Getting a whole army into readiness at night is not stealthy. Making perfect night attacks have been mentioned in histories because they were nearly impossible to pull off due to amount of warning your opponent would receive from nearly inevitable noise caused by preparing the army for attack.

[Archesel]

There is also issue you fail to remember. Your OWN troops cannot form up magically and silently. Getting a whole army into readiness at night is not stealthy. Making perfect night attacks have been mentioned in histories because they were nearly impossible to pull off due to amount of warning your opponent would receive from nearly inevitable noise caused by preparing the army for attack.

Probably, but don't you agree that a night attack would have been, in antiquity, at least as surprising as an ambush? So i agree with OP, in a later patch CA should make the defender unable to deploy like in ambush, for example, with his units formed in a hurry among fires and tents, in a confuse order... Would this be hard to create?

[JaM]

there were several attempts on night attacks during Antiquity, lots of them failed, but other succeeded. One of such attempt caused Pyrrhus a battle at Maleventum, when his troops were too disordered by night march, that it took them whole night just to get close to Roman camp. They only arrived in the morning, and while they still surprised the Romans, it was not enough.. Examples of successful night attacks can be found with Scipio, who managed to raid enemy camp in night successfully in several occasions.

[Dago Red]

Seems silly to have the enemy sallying out in a night attack, agreed that another advantage of doing so is catching the enemy off guard -- unless the commander has some night fighting attribute. Night attacks were common in the extreme in certain places, being a regular custom of the tribes and kings of Thrace. If the Greeks weren't already privy to the idea at the beginning of time, they certainly were after enough encounters with people to their north/east.

Xenophon writes clearly about the night attacks of Thracians, some of which he was victim of while in service of the Odrysian kingdom.

Examples of generals with "night fighting" who could counter such an attack (and sally out, etc):

Exerpts of Polyaenus 10.1

Clearchus, plundering Thrace and fearing a nocturnal attack of the Thracians, ordered all his men to remain under arms and to rouse themselves frequently. As the night was dark, he took part of the army and appeared striking their weapons in the Thracian manner, but his men were ready as though the enemy were attacking. In the meantime when the Thracians did make their assault, seeing that Clearchus' men were found awake, they killed most of the Thracians.


Polyaenus Stratagems 3.9.50

After invading Thrace, Iphicrates encamped in a plain surrounded by mountains, with a narrow exit across a bridge, which the Thracians intended to cross in order to attack at night. Lighting many fires in the camp, he ran up with his soldiers toward the foot of the mountain, set an ambush in a forest near the bridge, and kept quiet. The Thracians crossed the bridge and rushed towards the fires, thinking they would find the enemy there. Iphicrates took his soldiers from the forest, crossed the bridge, and retreated safely.

[RedGuard]

An idiot goes into night battle with NVG without fresh set of batteries set in.
And when was last time US military fought army that was worth anything? As in, same or superior technological level? Not in decades. If marines DID fight such enemy, they would not be so eager to engage in night combat precisely because the playing field would be too even.

again, another grand idea but in practice its not always possible to ave a fresh set of batteries or have a brand new pair of NVGS that work perfectly, no matter what COD would have you believe. and there are plenty of idiots in charge believe me. Sure its been decades, but at the risk of derailing the thread lets go back to Vietnam. Did the Vietnamese stop the US from fighting at night even though they had no access to NVGS and the most basic NVG that the US military uses today is from after Vietnam

No, they really weren't that common. All cats are grey at night and so forth.
There is also issue you fail to remember. Your OWN troops cannot form up magically and silently. Getting a whole army into readiness at night is not stealthy. Making perfect night attacks have been mentioned in histories because they were nearly impossible to pull off due to amount of warning your opponent would receive from nearly inevitable noise caused by preparing the army for attack.

they were common but often unsucessful mostly because they had no idea what they were doing because it was dark. Obviously this is a video game and I do not ask for that degree of realism. Im not asking the question "Why did the AI know I was coming my men were stealthy" I'm just asking why the AI would sally forth knowing that my army should be encamped at night unless they had a general that could also make night battles(they did not but that could be an exception to the rule)

[veverčák]

Well honestly, whole siege battles are totally off in terms reality vs game. I mean typical siege looks something like this: You gather your army, supplies, engineers etc. Than you march to desire city and lay siege. During window of opportunity (your supplies are not infinite and your army could be limited to your ability to pay them money for their services or by law - 30 day of active duty, then it is up to further agreement etc.) you, as attacker, are trying to break defenders and/or their defenses by any means necessary. Of course, your first goal is to persuade defenders to surrender without fight by offering them mercy/tactical retreat/whatever for exchange of fortifications. And to be honest there is chance the defenders will accept because in case of defeat well no mercy for misguided. Such burst of violence as siege battles in TW games means the gates/walls are down and we got full fledge assault on the streets with all inhabitants and defenders by usually superior force of attackers. Even if the outcome is positive and attackers are driven back, the position of defenders is in long run pretty dark. Long story short besieging settlement could not be represent by single battle and hope to capture medieval, antique or basically any pre end 19./20. century siege with any authenticity. it is just due the turn based nature of the game and fact most games work on set of predetermine rules. Therefor I am very skeptical about any talk about "true live examples". At the end of the day we are ending with our own imagination of the rules which should capture our own image of the event.

On the subject of defenders counter attack during night assault I am more on side "and where is problem, friend?". After all in most cases besieged force should keep eye on moving of the enemy and try their best to counter them. After all Dago Red already provide us with examples of generals who are aware of possible night ambushes and taking steps to counter it. I would even say it is countering any need for special ability to engage in night battle against someone, who is pretty famous for doing night battles. Not to mention I really do not like of countering general/character trait with another general/character trait. It sounds to me as rock/paper/shotgun which in my experience leads to into two extremes: half characters have the skill/second have counter skill or nobody have the skill/counter skill.

[Tiwaz]

again, another grand idea but in practice its not always possible to ave a fresh set of batteries or have a brand new pair of NVGS that work perfectly, no matter what COD would have you believe. and there are plenty of idiots in charge believe me. Sure its been decades, but at the risk of derailing the thread lets go back to Vietnam. Did the Vietnamese stop the US from fighting at night even though they had no access to NVGS and the most basic NVG that the US military uses today is from after Vietnam

If you don't have batteries then you don't have them. But while you have power on the goggles you have clear advatage at night.

they were common but often unsucessful mostly because they had no idea what they were doing because it was dark. Obviously this is a video game and I do not ask for that degree of realism. Im not asking the question "Why did the AI know I was coming my men were stealthy" I'm just asking why the AI would sally forth knowing that my army should be encamped at night unless they had a general that could also make night battles(they did not but that could be an exception to the rule)

Getting army within range to attack a settlement without them being noticed long time earlier was in ancient world practically impossible. They know you are coming, so they will prepare and keep scouts at you. And those scouts would pay notice that your men are not stopping to make camp for the night, which would take a long time and have to be started while there was still light.

You were going to initiate the battle at night, so they responded by forcing you to fight further away from their settlement. You could just as well ask why you cannot always have automatic ambush when performing night attack on army on the field, as you theoretically would catch them while camped for the night.

[DogSoldierSPQR]

I don't want to sound like a fool...but how does one go about initiating a night battle? I've literally never seen an option or had the ability to and all I really seem to do is siege places.

My generals are skilled too so if it were anything like Rome 1, I would've had the option too already but I seem to be missing something. Would appreciate a heads up, guys

[Ritmas]

yeah sure that is the video gamey reason to use it. there should be other reason to as well though, and having your enemy sallie forth from a settlement during one is pretty stupid

@ALQAMAR, I dont know if you ever played Medal of honor Allied Assault, but the spotlights in that game when they saw you ahd a machine gunner that mowed you down and the night battles remind me of that and ww2 era air raid siren

Do you have any arguments or sources to back up your claim that it's stupid? Or this another "I feel like it should be that and that" thread?