Balance improvement suggestions

[Nice]

I have some ideas to increase the balance and I also know enough to implement them.
I don't claim them to bring perfect balance but I think they would make the game slightly more enjoyable.
I also try to avoid very drastic changes because they might change the balance way more then we might expect.

I break the game in 4 big conflicts and give my opinion about the overall balance and what I would change.
I write my opinion on overall faction power(not only autoresolve) in brackets. (Ratings from 1-10)

1. HE(1), Eriador(2), Dwarves(9), SE(3) VS OotMM(7) and OoG(8)
Current balance: slightly favors good factions
Problem: Dwarves autoresolve is overpowered while HE and Eriador are horrific and seem unrewarding to play.
Solution: redistribute power of Dwarves to the other factions
Idea: decreasing defense value of Dwarves by around 10%. Increasing Unit size as well as costs of Eriador and He Militia by 20%

2. Dale(5) VS Rhun(7)
Current balance: favors Rhun
Problem: Rhun and Dale both have weak early units, but Rhun can back it up with an extremly powerfull economy.
Solution: weaken Rhuns economy
Idea: reduce highway and gold mine income

3. Rohan(5) VS Isengard(6)
Current balance: quite balanced (many probably will disagree here)
Let me explain shortly:
In my opinion a well played Rohan should be able to keep Isengard at bay with their immense starting advantage.
Rohan will just get defeated if it leaves Isengard time to develope.
The only problem I see is that Isengard high-tier units are very powerful. I will probably slightly weaken them.

4. Gondor(7) VS Mordor(10) and Harad(4)
Current balance: Gondor is doomed if Harad and Mordor don't make mistakes
Problem: Gondor faces multiple fronts while fighting the most powerfull faction
Solution: Harshly weaken Mordor AR or remove Harad and ships
Idea: first idea could probably work with a 20% unit size and price reduction of Mordor
second idea is a bit drastic but it would give Gondor the chance to concentrate on Modor without having insanly fast reinforcement thanks to secure shiprouts.
(Also there were complaints about to many factions)

I will only plan to change the following documents because they are easy to configure and I understand them:
export_descr_buildings, export_descr_units, descr_strat


If you have any proposals to improve the balance please send them.
If you think think that some of my thoughts are wrong please give a good explanation.

If there is any hotseats willing to play with my proposed changes I will try to implement my ideas.

[Nice]

A decent list, though I strongly disagree with some ratings.

1. HE is not a 1, it's economy is decent and units, while expensive, are average. A 3 imho. Which makes good side stronger in area 1.
2. Dale AR is on the level of Eriador, and it's economy is even worse than Eriador's. It has a great potential though it cannot reach it in most cases due to horrible early units. Again, 3 imho. But the thing to consider is that Dwarves also fight in area 2, which makes area 2 quite well balanced.
3. Isengard is the second strongest AR faction. It starts weak but if played correctly, it simply cannot lose to Rohan. A rating of 8 is appropriate and lowering the stats by 10% is necessary.
4. Gondor is a 10. It has a very good AR and by far the best economy in the game. Removing Harad or it's ships would be the death of evil.

HS patch is a double-edged sword. It will make hotseating better but less players will be willing to play because it will require a special instalation of TATW just for hotseating. So before you start working on it, I suggest making an official poll to see how many would be willing to install it.

1. I just tested HE autresolve against Eriador. I am now tempted to give HE a 0 if it was possible. Eriador has already terrible autoresolve but HE completly lost, while I expected it to be on par. Even though HE has insanly slow recruitment their sword militia loses to the Eriador spear militia, while their archers lose to Eriador achers. HE economy isn't really good and the only decent settlement of HE will instantly be taken by OotMM.
1+2. Eriador economy always seemed to be pretty good. Better then HE.
2. Tested Dale AR and also have to disagree: Even though Watchmen(spearmilita) are terrible Dale has 3 settlements were they can build units that easily beat Balchoth and Rhun Clansmen.
Dalesmen, Rivermen and Archers constantly beat them, while Dale Swordsman are absolutly Supreme. Ofcourse Rhun is still stronger because of their great economy.
3. second strongest AR but if played correctly Rohan won't let Isengard develope. If somebody wants I can try that matchoff against him but I am pretty sure that Rohan can keep them at bay.
4. While Gondor has the strongest Human AR and a great economy, their AR is chanceless against Mordor. They have a pretty much undefendable flank to Harad even if they are able to keep sea supremacy, so their situation isn't that great. Gondor was beaten in almost every hotseat so far.

You don't need a seperate installation for the changes I plan to make. It is enough to replace the normal data with the HS data before you begin playing your turn.
Just put those 2 folders(TA data example.7z) in your TA folder and replace the current data with the needed one.

So let me write the equation down that is left according to Nice
HE(1) + Dwarves (9) vs OotMM (7) + OoG (8)
This implies an easy victory for evil side, however this battle is not decided (dwarves in my opinion are much much stronger than 9)....

You left out SE and Eriador. I even said that good has a slight advantage. I don't think that OotMM and OoG are in terrible situation though. They have great AR.

Dwarven economy isn't great so they normally have a slow start. I gave them a 9 because of that.
Mordor got a ten for supreme AR, good economy and very easy to defend.

[Gallus]

Ah damn, I replied in the other thread. In any case, please make a poll regarding a HS patch. Specifically, how many players would be willing to install it if it meant a separate instalation of tatw is needed.

[Chieftain Khuzaymah]

1. I just tested HE autresolve against Eriador. I am now tempted to give HE a 0 if it was possible. Eriador has already terrible autoresolve but HE completly lost, while I expected it to be on par. Even though HE has insanly slow recruitment their sword militia loses to the Eriador spear militia, while their archers lose to Eriador achers. HE economy isn't really good and the only decent settlement of HE will instantly be taken by OotMM.
1+2. Eriador economy always seemed to be pretty good. Better then HE.
2. Tested Dale AR and also have to disagree: Even though Watchmen(spearmilita) are terrible Dale has 3 settlements were they can build units that easily beat Balchoth and Rhun Clansmen.
Dalesmen, Rivermen and Archers constantly beat them, while Dale Swordsman are absolutly Supreme. Ofcourse Rhun is still stronger because of their great economy.
3. second strongest AR but if played correctly Rohan won't let Isengard develope. If somebody wants I can try that matchoff against him but I am pretty sure that Rohan can keep them at bay.
4. While Gondor has the strongest Human AR and a great economy, their AR is chanceless against Mordor. They have a pretty much undefendable flank to Harad even if they are able to keep sea supremacy, so their situation isn't that great. Gondor was beaten in almost every hotseat so far.

You don't need a seperate installation for the changes I plan to make. It is enough to replace the normal data with the HS data before you begin playing your turn.
Just put those 2 folders(TA data example.7z) in your TA folder and replace the current data with the needed one.



You left out SE and Eriador. I even said that good has a slight advantage. I don't think that OotMM and OoG are in terrible situation though. They have great AR.

Dwarven economy isn't great so they normally have a slow start. I gave them a 9 because of that.
Mordor got a ten for supreme AR, good economy and very easy to defend.

That is because I was talking about our hotseat specifically, where the silvan elves can not participate because they are busy with Mordor, and Eriador already got defeated. Hence that equation. We ( OoG and OotMM ) are not in a bad situation, but have you tested dwarves vs orcs(snagas/goblins) simulation Nice? It will probably amaze you how easy dwarves win, with 3 times the numbers of orcs compared to dwarves AND the reloading advantage you stand no chance

also considering that dwarves start off with great commanders, where orcs have only their leader to rely on, who is pretty average and needs battle experience to gain traits. Hence I would rate dwarves higher than 10

[Nice]

I defeated many Dwarven armies with OotMM. The key are AP units. OoG has even more of them.
If OoG rushes barracks in Carn Dum they have great units to counter Dwarves
Orc Axemen and Halberds never lost to Dwarven Warriors, Axemen and Halberds when i tested it.
Orcs are in a disadvantage but it's not that terrible

Ah damn, I replied in the other thread. In any case, please make a poll regarding a HS patch. Specifically, how many players would be willing to install it if it meant a separate instalation of tatw is needed.

I already answered this.

You don't need a seperate installation for the changes I plan to make. It is enough to replace the normal data with the HS data before you begin playing your turn.
Just put those 2 folders(TA data example.7z) in your TA folder and replace the current data with the needed one.

Didn't test it but I am absolutly sure from my experience that a Gondor fullstack will never defeat a Mordor fullstack with about the same quality of troops and general.
HE swordsmen did lose pretty often against Bree Militia.
If you want to prove me otherwise send me a save like i did.

If you don't believe me that clansmen get defeated by dalesmen and archers test it yourself:

[joerock22]

Didn't test it but I am absolutly sure from my experience that a Gondor fullstack will never defeat a Mordor fullstack with about the same quality of troops and general.

Pretty sure that's right. Gondor can win outnumbered but a Mordor full stack has 2000 more than a Gondor full stack. That's too much to overcome.

[Gallus]

Dalesmen actually beat the clansmen! and watchmen have worse results than archers. Why do my archers always get butchered if they are, according to test, better than spearmen?

+rep for a great save btw

[Aldor]

Here is what I have to add:

Current situation and problem

Factions auto-winning hotseats after defeating their direct enemy is bad. It makes other conflicts unimportant.
Basicly, many factions currently play for the rare case where all the important conflicts remain undecided for a very long time.

In general

All faction 'zones of influence' net the same base economy. Auto-resolve is balanced taking into account recruitment.

How to keep variation?
- Don't overbalance everything to be equal, but keep certain limits. E.g. +15% AR, -15% economy, ... (max 15-20% difference)
- Maintain recruitment differences. E.g. HE have to rely on individual unit strenght, Mordor spams units of lesser quality.
- Economy of some factions can be higher or lower taking into account their AR and recruitment. Keep in mind that economy is less important. (e.g. +15% economy for -5% AR)
- Balance economy with King's purse partly. This can't get obteigned by more powerful factions. E.g. +20% economy => 10% purse and 10% settlements.
- Early troops can differ with about 10-20% as well, but give the slightly underpowered factions faster development options.
- Ships are imbalanced and should be removed completely.

Specifically

- Isengard's only direct enemy is Rohan. If Rohan player is noob and Isengard pro, Isengard defeats Rohan and can build up. This usually means hotseat victory for Isengard. Rohan would not be able to streamroll as easily in the inverted situation (to some extent)

- Gondor / Mordor. If Mordor wins easily, the hotseat is more or less over due to AR advantages over other factions. Gondor has this problem as well to a certain extent.

- Harad is doomed in auto-resolve. Early troops aren't worth training. A fullstack of elites is needed to get on par with first tier troops.

A balanced map would be:
- No ships.
- Heavily nerf Dwarven, Isengard, Rohan, Mordor, Gondor late troops.
- Heavily nerf Dwarven, Mordor early troops.
- Nerf Rhun, Gondor, Mordor economy.
- Nerf OoG, OotMM early troops.
- Boost HE and SE AR, recruitment and economy.
- Fine-tuning.

Also, +rep given to Nice.

+ rep for your detailed work. - Aldor

You might have repped the wrong guy

Fixed.

[Chieftain Khuzaymah]

+ rep for your detailed work. - Aldor

You might have repped the wrong guy

[Matto16]

If someone if willing to implement those balancing things into game that would be nice. We won't use them in Gaming Staff HS as we are not sure how it works but they may be used in some testing hotseat is someone has desire to organize it.