Spotting units in forests from outside...

[DogSoldierSPQR]

I personally think the line of sight feature is a great and very much welcomed addition to the TW series. I, for one, love it.

However, there is something in specific I am wondering about and from what we have seen, it's been a bit random and I cannot come to a conclusion. I figured since we have a few days, this should be make for a good discussion to pass the time.

In the Macedon playthrough about the AI, Al's cavalry on the right flank was spotted by enemy units that had entered the forest as well and that's understandable. However, on the left flank, his cavalry that were hidden were found by the Roman cavalry. You could say they were kinda close but for ambushes to be effective, I don't think that's a good distance to actually have to spot someone at. It would be very hard to surprise an enemy like that.

In the Battle of Vesuvius was it? Where Al had that fight in the prologue against the Samnites? Al had hidden the Italian Swordsmen in that small forested bit but was spotted at a pretty considerable distance. There are two variants of that video. In one of them, Al failed to successfully hide them in the forest and in the other one they were hidden properly but were spotted quite easily.

I don't know what to think really. I wanted it to be where units would have to get super close and then you can have your guys just charge out and get them before they can leg it. Also, for countering ambushes or hidden units, I think enemies should have to send light units into the forest itself which should make them more efficient at finding the enemy. I just think that enemies outside of the forest should not have clear line of sight into the forest from the outside. This can potentially spoil well placed hidden units.

How would you guys like the LoS system to work in this regard?

[Mikelus Trento]

It might well matter how close the hidden unit is to the front of the cover? I would guess being behind the cover, rather than being in it, would be more effective.

[DogSoldierSPQR]

It might well matter how close the hidden unit is to the front of the cover? I would guess being behind the cover, rather than being in it, would be more effective.

A unit must be at the edge of the forest so they can get to the unit being ambushed as quick as possible. If it's easy to spot them, it could very well spoil it.

[Col. Tartleton]

Sometimes forests are very dense. Jungle visibility might only be a few meters.

[Mikelus Trento]

LOS is one of the most difficult aspects to simulate in a game. There are just so many variables. I know it is still a topic of great discussion in another game I play lot of... World of Tanks. Let me point out a few of the reasons why this is so hard to program in accurately.

1. Camo: Obviously something that wasn't considered back then near as much the modern military does now, but it still impacts this discussion. A barb in their typical animal furs and leathers would blend in with their surroundings much more than would a Roman with their shiny bright armor.

2. Size of the unit: A small sized leader unit would be harder to detect than a full complement of 160 soldiers. Along with this would be mounted vs. unmounted.

3. As Col Tarleton points out, the density of the cover if vegetative, vs solid cover like a wall or hill side, which is much easier to program. A very dense forest of thickly trunked and closely packed trees provides much better cover than one of thin saplings, widely spaced.

4. As I mentioned, the thickness of the cover between viewer and target. The more there is, the more likely it is for the unit to remain hidden, regardless of your desire to have the ambusher be near to the front of it. Your need to have them placed forward reduces the cover effect you are striving for.

5. Movement: All other things being equal, the human eye is able to detect motion much easier than form. (I'm an optometrist in RL btw).

So, in conclusion, although I totally understand your concern, the remedy for it is actually based on many more things than might be immediately evident, and all of them considered might be beyond the ability to program effectively in a computer game.

[DogSoldierSPQR]

LOS is one of the most difficult aspects to simulate in a game. There are just so many variables. I know it is still a topic of great discussion in another game I play lot of... World of Tanks. Let me point out a few of the reasons why this is so hard to program in accurately.

1. Camo: Obviously something that wasn't considered back then near as much the modern military does now, but it still impacts this discussion. A barb in their typical animal furs and leathers would blend in with their surroundings much more than would a Roman with their shiny bright armor.

2. Size of the unit: A small sized leader unit would be harder to detect than a full complement of 160 soldiers. Along with this would be mounted vs. unmounted.

3. As Col Tarleton points out, the density of the cover if vegetative, vs solid cover like a wall or hill side, which is much easier to program. A very dense forest of thickly trunked and closely packed trees provides much better cover than one of thin saplings, widely spaced.

4. As I mentioned, the thickness of the cover between viewer and target. The more there is, the more likely it is for the unit to remain hidden, regardless of your desire to have the ambusher be near to the front of it. Your need to have them placed forward reduces the cover effect you are striving for.

5. Movement: All other things being equal, the human eye is able to detect motion much easier than form. (I'm an optometrist in RL btw).

So, in conclusion, although I totally understand your concern, the remedy for it is actually based on many more things than might be immediately evident, and all of them considered might be beyond the ability to program effectively in a computer game.

Well written post

In terms of gameplay itself, as reality is very complex, I think units that are hidden should have the "spotting distances" reduced. Otherwise, we'd never be able to initiate a proper ambush. This is a complex thing in itself to code into the game to make it work well, but just for the sake of ambushing, I just think hidden units should be pretty difficult to spot.

[Travisfv]

I would say they were spotted due to being on horseback. A good war horse is between 15-17 Hands depending on the breed. As an aside, too big of a horse would make it hard to mount in armor without assistance and being too high off the ground has a disadvantage when striking an enemy below you in melee.

But anyway, those cavalrymen are sitting about 9-12 feet off the ground. In that small forest on the left flank, it wasn't a deep forest. Those men woul be hidden, but silhouetted against the background. Also, remember horses move. Even if you ask them to stand still, they're gonna move around just because thats what they do.

In a thicker forest there is more trees and brush to cover your background so you're not so obvious. Without that, you're just a big tall target.

[MathiasOfAthens]

Not to mention horses are not quiet but I dont know if that is represented in the LoS.