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Thread: Tolerance, diversity, strength...

  1. #1
    Der Phönix's Avatar Miles
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    Default Tolerance, diversity, strength...

    The three virtues of the Selucids are tolerance, diversity and strength. Isn't this going a bit far with postmodern political ideals? I mean, what's next; anti-racism, equality and animal rights for the Scythians?

    I do know that The Selucid Empire (like most empires at the time) was ethnically diverse. However, was diversity ipso facto a virtue for given empire? Was it seen as an intrinsically good thing that one should strive after? Was there any kind of policy that embraced diversity? I also happen to know that the Selucids by certain extent was a tolerant Empire, or at least the forerunner: The Persian empire, was. But were the Selucids uniquely tolerant for the period? Are we talking politics or history here? Please enlighten me...

  2. #2

    Default Re: Tolerance, diversity, strength...

    I'm not sure, but thats a good question. This probably is modern political ideals butting their way into the game, but I honestly don't see it as that big of a deal, even as fan who likes the game or its historical setting. My guess is it won't have a huge impact on gameplay, I suspect its mostly just "fluff" of the sort seen in the descriptions for units/models in tabletop games (warhammer etc . . .). If were are going to have some political/ethical commentary from the modern perspective in the game, then something about racial/religious tolerance is actually quite welcome.

  3. #3
    King_Porus's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Tolerance, diversity, strength...

    To my knowledge, the Seleucids weren't big on enslaving other races, whereas many empires of the time did. Stop interpreting everything as a political message, it's video game for the love of God.
    I know you aren't tolerant of immigrants and such, but that doesn't mean that this game has to be hand tailored to your political ideologies.

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    GussieFinkNottle's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Tolerance, diversity, strength...

    Quote Originally Posted by Der Phönix View Post
    The three virtues of the Selucids are tolerance, diversity and strength. Isn't this going a bit far with postmodern political ideals? I mean, what's next; anti-racism, equality and animal rights for the Scythians?
    Well the Scythians (modern day Russia) certainly wouldn't be known for gay rights
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    Default Re: Tolerance, diversity, strength...

    It is not entire wrong, but i wouldn give the trait Tolerance to the Seleucids. The Parthians have it which is correct, but to tolerance is only right if you say that tolerance is the abcence of discrimination. We know that Alexander hold a giant masswedding for his officers and persian woman. After his death these officers abanonned their persian women very fast. The only officer which kept his persian wife was Seleucos. Still he is the only Seleucid King who had a persian wife. Further didn't the Seleucids used Persian man as soldiers. An exception is the Agema which consisted of Persian Noble Sons, an equivalent to the Companion Bodyguard, but this was rather to satisfy the persian vasalls. The vassals could kept their own traditions and culture, but in the core realm which is shown as direct controled by the faction in Rome 2, the Seleucids relied primary on hellenes, macedonians and people like syrians which were heavily hellenizised.

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    Princess Cadance's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Tolerance, diversity, strength...

    Well the Scythians were an Iranian in origin people and in modern day Iran they hang gays so hey,maybe there's something there.
    "Sing to the LORD a new song;sing to the LORD, all the earth."-Psalm 96:1
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    Der Phönix's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Tolerance, diversity, strength...

    I'm also taking issue with this from the faction description:

    As a heavily multicultural society, they also suffer less from public order issues arising from foreign cultures entering their territories.

    The premises if this thesis is quite retarded. In a modern setting, it proposes that if the US is attacked by China, the US will suffer less from public order issues because it has a Chinese minority.

    Quote Originally Posted by King_Porus View Post
    To my knowledge, the Seleucids weren't big on enslaving other races, whereas many empires of the time did. Stop interpreting everything as a political message, it's video game for the love of God.
    I know you aren't tolerant of immigrants and such, but that doesn't mean that this game has to be hand tailored to your political ideologies.
    I'm just asking

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    SemperUbiSubUbi's Avatar Laetus
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    Default Re: Tolerance, diversity, strength...

    And what's the bit about Selucids
    disliking "the concept and practice of slavery"? I don't know enough about the Parthians to comment about them, but I'm pretty sure the Seleucid Empire had slaves just like every other state in the ancient Mediterranean.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Tolerance, diversity, strength...

    Maybe they're talking about pain tolerance and food diversity?

  10. #10
    King_Porus's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Tolerance, diversity, strength...

    Quote Originally Posted by SemperUbiSubUbi View Post
    And what's the bit about Selucids
    disliking "the concept and practice of slavery"? I don't know enough about the Parthians to comment about them, but I'm pretty sure the Seleucid Empire had slaves just like every other state in the ancient Mediterranean.
    To my knowledge the Seleucids didn't enslave the populace of areas that they conquered, I never said they had no slaves whatsoever.

  11. #11
    King_Porus's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Tolerance, diversity, strength...

    Taken from wikipedia:
    The Seleucid empire's geographic span, from the Aegean Sea to what is now Afghanistan and Pakistan, created a melting pot of various peoples, such as Greeks, Armenians, Persians,Medes, Assyrians, and Jews. The immense size of the empire, followed by its encompassing nature, made the Seleucid rulers have a governing interest in implementing a policy of racial unity initiated by Alexander.
    It sounds like they were pretty tolerant.

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    RedGuard's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Tolerance, diversity, strength...

    tolerance is relative. Obviously the wise seleucids ruled over a vast empire with many peoples, thus forcing them to be tolerant, otherwise they would have rebellions everywhere all the time. Im sure if thier empire was made up entirely of greeks they wouldn't be very tolerant.

  13. #13
    Der Phönix's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Tolerance, diversity, strength...

    Quote Originally Posted by King_Porus View Post
    It sounds like they were pretty tolerant.
    Also taken from Wikipedia

    When Judea fell under the authority of the Seleucid Empire, the process of Hellenization was enforced by law.This effectively meant requiring pagan religious practice. In 167 BCE Jewish sacrifice was forbidden, sabbaths and feasts were banned and circumcision was outlawed. Altars to Greek gods were set up and animals prohibited to Jews were sacrificed on them. The Olympian Zeus was placed on the altar of the Temple. Possession of Jewish scriptures was made a capital offence.
    Doesn't sound like a meting pot to me

  14. #14

    Default Re: Tolerance, diversity, strength...

    They probably took some inspiration from the face that Seleucus Nikator was the only one of the major Diadochi (or any of the officers of Alexander) to not immediately disown his Iranian wife, but rather stay married to her.

    At the end of the day it's flavor text and one could easily come up with different adjectives if a different person on the CA team or someone here was in charge of it - nobody would really be satisfied. "“Democracy, commerce, faith"
    for carthage could apply sans commerce to Rome, it could apply entirely to Athens. “Strength, honour, duty.” of Rome could apply to Sparta.


    tl;dr - quit worrying about it, it's peanuts.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Tolerance, diversity, strength...

    @ Der Phonix,

    It being from wikipedia, I hear you. The quote about the Jews, well this was one ruler that took it too far, and the Jews revolted. I don't know of previous rulers doing the same for their to be this major revolt before this forbidding of their religion

  16. #16
    General David's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Tolerance, diversity, strength...

    In my opinion, it were the conquered locals of the Seleucid Empire who were tolerant towards their new overlords, not the opposite. For example, the Phoenicians gladly embraced Hellenistic culture presented to them by the Successors and made it their own.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Tolerance, diversity, strength...

    Quote Originally Posted by Der Phönix View Post
    Was there any kind of policy that embraced diversity?
    As a coincidence, I was planning to read an article about Seleukid religious practices tomorrow, called "Public Law and Private Religion in Hellenistic Laodicea by the Sea". I'll see if I can find evidence in there of tolerance (or a lack thereof).

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    Der Phönix's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Tolerance, diversity, strength...

    Quote Originally Posted by maximusdecimusm View Post
    As a coincidence, I was planning to read an article about Seleukid religious practices tomorrow, called "Public Law and Private Religion in Hellenistic Laodicea by the Sea". I'll see if I can find evidence in there of tolerance (or a lack thereof).
    Looking forward to hear back from you

  19. #19
    omzdog's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Tolerance, diversity, strength...

    Funny how a few think that lacking an aggressive enslaving policy is a mark of tolerance.
    Even in that era, the concept of universal freedmen was not isolated.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Tolerance, diversity, strength...

    Maybe CA just ran out of adjectives.

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