Economy seems unbalanced

[Sigmar Heldenhamer]

I have all my tax set to medium or low and i am still getting a load of money just from my initial cities and begining of campaign without really building any buildings

[The Blade That Was Broken]

Already reported a few days ago, planned to be revamped in the coming patchs (Next time pls post in one thread, and read forum first?)

[Sigmar Heldenhamer]

i was going to but when Beta first came out i did alal my errors in one post and GiG told me to make a new post for each issue

[The Blade That Was Broken]

1. This is not a issue... (Suggestion) (Issue means bug report, aka CRASH).
2. Suggestions are better to be kept in one thread (doesn't use up 1/4 of the view thread's column )

[Sigmar Heldenhamer]

i figured GIG was right and to make a thread for each topic so it wont get confusing

[The Blade That Was Broken]

i figured GIG was right and to make a thread for each topic so it wont get confusing

That would be the case if it was a discussion thread, which this is not.

[Sigmar Heldenhamer]

ok next time i will compile it into one thread, i just thought each thread could have people comment on each issus

[Gigantus]

Let me clear this up:

• Error reports should have their own threads but please check if the identical problem has been reported before.
• Suggestions should have their own thread provided the topic doesn't exist already.

What should be avoided is unrelated posts in the same thread, eg sound related suggestion in a model suggestion thread, simply because one or the other suggestion will most likely be neglected.

As to the economy - it does need balancing and it won't be fixed in the next (combined) patch as this requires some time. I do however like the idea from De Bello Mundi to attach maintenance cost to buildings. As well as the 'diminishing return' idea from 1648.

[Geoffrey of Villehardouin]

Strong economies make campaigns more aggressive. After all, the AI makes more money than the human player. In my test campaign I was barely surviving against the AI. Most of the time I had no money to build anything, so I am in favour of not changing much as far as the economy goes.

[Gongsunzan]

The problem starts when u force a faction into a vassal. Youll see a boost of about 400 grand in one turn. Afterwards the computer u vassaled will give u alot less as they spend all their money on troops that they dont use. But that grace period where u beat them to no armies and one city gives them an insane amount of money as they have no upkeep. Whenever i vassal someone i then got the funds to bribe entire enemy stacks either to my side or out of existence without caring about the cost. Also officers with 6 or less loyalty become easily bribable. This makes the campaign do much easier i usually have 4 maxed out diplomats bribing away stacks if enemy and then sending my armies in to finish off what remains. Once the vassal bonus wears out and i have stacks all around the map then my economy slows but at that point i am so strong actually losing is a distant memory.

Although i love the power it makes the game too simple. I actually auto resolve alot of the battles because i outnumber the enemy after bribing all their stacks away. A cap on the max amount of money the ai can accumulate would solve this vassal exploit.

[Geoffrey of Villehardouin]

The problem starts when u force a faction into a vassal. Youll see a boost of about 400 grand in one turn.

That's a game killing exploit alright.

[Gigantus]

I think capping AI factions at 20.000 at the end of their turn should do the trick.
I do however have a sneaking suspicion that they don't really have the money that are passing over. If it happens to someone, can they please have a look into the graph details and see if the vassal actually had the cash that they passed over?

[limith]

I gain 100+k in one turn from a vassal who had one province...

I will say that the biggest limitation on troops right now is the limit on troop training and not cost. Many cities also have way too high happiness, meaning it's possible to put very high Taxes with still >250% happiness. In addition, acumen seems to affect squalor too much, I gained 3 Huge Cities by turn 23 with low taxes and focusing only on hospitals and Han Emperor temples. Literally by the time I finish the hospital/Han Emperor, the next wall becomes available, there's no need for me to build farms at all. I actually have the highest income with ALL cities on LOW taxes due to the growth of cities (I had #1 before getting the vassal)

Buildings are also too cheap.

Generally I would say:
-Increase building cost by 2-3x
-Increase upkeep and unit cost by 2-3x
-Decrease acumen bonus by half on squalor
-Decrease health/farm bonus on Han Emperor temples and all other temples OR greatly increase cost of the temples OR greatly increase build time of higher tier temples.

Alternatively, you can also increase minimum pop needed to upgrade a city, I can easily get 50k citizens in a city with NO farms due to health bonuses and acumen.

[limith]

I'm currently playtesting a simple balance change (included below) by creating a descr_settlement_mechanics.xml. Loading a turn 38 old Liu Bei campaign seems to have values at a good balance, so I'm testing from turn 1 again and seeing the impact on balance.

<?xml version="1.0"?>
    <!-- settlement mechanics edited by gracul -->
<root>
    <factor_modifiers>
        <factor name="SPF_FARMING_LEVEL">
            <pip_modifier value="1.5"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SPF_FARMS_BUILT">
            <pip_modifier value="1.75"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SPF_HEALTH">
            <pip_modifier value="1.1"/>
            <pip_min value="0"/>
            <pip_max value="25"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SPF_BUILDINGS">
            <pip_modifier value="1.0"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SPF_TAX_RATE_BONUS">
            <pip_modifier value="2.0"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SPF_BUILDINGS_FUN">
            <pip_modifier value="0.25"/>
            <pip_min value="0"/>
            <pip_max value="25"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SPF_GOVERNORS_INFLUENCE">
            <pip_modifier value="0.75"/>
            <pip_min value="0"/>
            <pip_max value="8"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SPF_TRADE">
            <pip_modifier value="1.25"/>
            <pip_min value="0"/>
            <pip_max value="20"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SPF_SQUALOUR">
            <pip_modifier value="0.9"/>
            <pip_min value="0"/>
            <pip_max value="40"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SPF_PLAGUE">
            <pip_modifier value="1.5"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SPF_TAX_RATE_PENALTY">
            <pip_modifier value="2.0"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SOF_GARRISON">
            <pip_modifier value="2.0"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SOF_BUILDINGS_LAW">
            <pip_modifier value="0.5"/>
            <pip_min value="0"/>
            <pip_max value="25"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SOF_BUILDINGS_FUN">
            <pip_modifier value="0.5"/>
            <pip_min value="0"/>
            <pip_max value="25"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SOF_GOVERNORS_INFLUENCE">
            <pip_modifier value="0.10"/>
            <pip_min value="0"/>
            <pip_max value="20"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SOF_TAX_BONUS">
            <pip_modifier value="1.0"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SOF_TRIUMPH">
            <pip_modifier value="1.0"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SOF_BOOM">
            <pip_modifier value="1.0"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SOF_ENTERTAINED">
            <pip_modifier value="0.75"/>
            <castle_modifier value="0.5"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SOF_HEALTH">
            <pip_modifier value="0.75"/>
            <pip_min value="0"/>
            <pip_max value="25"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SOF_FEAR">
            <pip_modifier value="0.25"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SOF_GLORY">
            <pip_modifier value="0.5"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SOF_SQUALOUR">
            <pip_modifier value="0.75"/>
            <pip_min value="0"/>
            <pip_max value="16"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SOF_DISTANCE_TO_CAPITAL">
            <pip_modifier value="0.5"/>
            <pip_min value="0"/>
            <pip_max value="16"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SOF_NO_GOVERNANCE">
            <pip_modifier value="2.0"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SOF_TAX_PENALTY">
            <pip_modifier value="1.75"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SOF_TURMOIL">
            <pip_modifier value="2.5"/>
            <pip_min value="0"/>
            <pip_max value="16"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SOF_BESIEGED">
            <pip_modifier value="0.5"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SOF_BLOCKADED">
            <pip_modifier value="0.5"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SOF_RELIGIOUS_UNREST">
            <pip_modifier value="2.0"/>
            <pip_max value="16"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SOF_EXCOMMUNICATION">
            <pip_modifier value="2.0"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SIF_FARMS">
            <pip_modifier value="0.75"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SIF_TAXES">
            <pip_modifier value="0.35"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SIF_MINING">
            <pip_modifier value="0.75"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SIF_TRADE">
            <pip_modifier value="0.5"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SIF_BUILDINGS">
            <pip_modifier value="1.0"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SIF_ADMIN">
            <pip_modifier value="1.0"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SIF_WAGES">
            <pip_modifier value="1.0"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SIF_UPKEEP">
            <pip_modifier value="1.4"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SIF_CORRUPTION">
            <pip_modifier value="0.25"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SIF_ENTERTAINMENT">
            <pip_modifier value="0.5"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SIF_DEVASTATION">
            <pip_modifier value="1.5"/>
        </factor>
    </factor_modifiers>
    <population_levels>
        <!-- city -->
        <level name="village" base="1000" upgrade="2500" min="500" max="4000"/>
        <level name="town" base="2500" upgrade="10000" min="500" max="15000"/>
        <level name="large_town" base="10000" upgrade="25000" min="500" max="40000"/>
        <level name="city" base="25000" upgrade="40000" min="500" max="60000"/>
        <level name="large_city" base="40000" upgrade="70000" min="500" max="100000"/>
        <level name="huge_city" base="70000" min="500" max="3000000"/>
        <!-- castle -->
        <level name="moot_and_bailey" base="1000" upgrade="2000" min="500" max="1500"/>
        <level name="wooden_castle" base="2000" upgrade="4000" min="500" max="5000"/>
        <level name="castle" base="4000" upgrade="9500" min="500" max="10000"/>
        <level name="fortress" base="9500" upgrade="22500" min="500" max="21000"/>
        <level name="citadel" base="22500" min="500" max="30000"/>
    </population_levels>
</root>

[limith]

Does anyone know if the AI cheats or if there's a script which gifts the ai money? Because I'm fairly certain it shouldn't be possible for the AI to have such a ridiculous income rate at early game while also maintaining a huge army with the above changes, especially when I can't do so if I play that faction...Cao Cao already has 100,000 stockpiled by turn 10...is there a place where I can modify ai money bonuses? It kind of defeats the point of making money something that needs to be balanced if the AI still gets an insane amount of gold. I mean, 2-3x income may be okay, but 100000 on hand gold in 10 turns is a profit in of 10000/turn (and this started at turn 1) when with the above economy balance xml, I barely make 10k/turn total net (that's not profit) if I were to set taxes to very high, 8k net if I were to set to low...I know the AI is spending on buildings as well, and military.

[The Blade That Was Broken]

Does anyone know if the AI cheats or if there's a script which gifts the ai money? Because I'm fairly certain it shouldn't be possible for the AI to have such a ridiculous income rate at early game while also maintaining a huge army with the above changes, especially when I can't do so if I play that faction...Cao Cao already has 100,000 stockpiled by turn 10...is there a place where I can modify ai money bonuses? It kind of defeats the point of making money something that needs to be balanced if the AI still gets an insane amount of gold. I mean, 2-3x income may be okay, but 100000 on hand gold in 10 turns is a profit in of 10000/turn (and this started at turn 1) when with the above economy balance xml, I barely make 10k/turn total net (that's not profit) if I were to set taxes to very high, 8k net if I were to set to low...I know the AI is spending on buildings as well, and military.

Gigantus is already looking in to this issue, a fix should be in the next couple patches. If you really wish to help mod, I suggest you look at these tutorials.

One thing for sure is that there is no script that gifts AI money, or the fact that the AI cheats. It's a known issue with the trading income. The fact that the AI makes more money that the human player is hard coded from vanilla.

[limith]

Based on playtest, changed values of squalor to 0.85 and reduced requirement for Huge City to 65000, will see if it is possible to acquire a huge city now with a good governor. Reduced squalor since the natural pop growth with all cities of a town was just shy of the 2500 requirement, so a good governor was required to let it grow above that. May need to reduce squalor a bit again if I find it's not possible to get a huge city with a good governor (Acumen 7)

*with all buildings buildable by a town.

Population growth is much better with the balance modification, still haven't gotten a huge city yet by turn 80 (~ 8 years)

[Gigantus]

Those are encouraging results. I think the multiple turns per year will require an increase in building times, but not necessarily in the cost - other then where it is too low to start with.
The adjustment of population levels in conjunction with squalor levels should also make settlement development more realistic.

[limith]

I've made more changes on my end, mostly removing "pip" limits to squalor and other modifiers and then adjusting their ratios after the limits were removed. This was because I noticed that large cities seemed way too easy to manage order compared to smaller ones (probably due to a cap on squalor). I also reduced unrest penalty and increased law bonus, as spies were adding 40% unrest by themselves, and it seemed unbalanced that 2 spies would increase unrest by 80% in a settlement. To compensate, I removed the cap on belief penalty so it no longer caps at 80% (slightly reduced penalty/point). Now recruiting scholars and sending them out in advance of your army is useful. I'll post the file once I do some more testing.

[Gigantus]

Thanks a lot for your efforts, looking forward to have a look at your work.