Testudo still wrong?
The Jack affirmation:
But in that picture still looks wrong...Why is the testudo depicted the way it is in-game, and what benefits does it have compared to the normal shield raising against missiles?
We have 2 testudo formations in the game. The attacking testudo is mobile and has the front and side protected, and is a documented Roman formation. The defensive testudo, used with spear units, is stationary and the front rank kneels with the ranks behind having shields over their head. This is based on the testudo as used by, for example, Mark Anthony against the Parthians.
Is that perhaps an older build and ingame will be corrected? Why no pictures of the right testudo had been posted then?
Romans did have sure several testudo types but the ossidional testudo is ver well known and documented and used in sieges with all sides protected....Jack affirma the sides are covered but I see yet not in this picture:
The same testudo showed in other videos , open loose formation , wide gaps between a line of men and the other ,shields do not overlap well , the front line heads are out of protection , the sides are left uncovered ... And the overal feel is like artificial formation with all men in the same (wrong) position.
So where is the testudo Jack is talking about?
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After Edit Addition:
A video showing reenactors using the Ossidional testudo
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VMuSyEu...%3DVMuSyEud3BE
the famous depiction of the Testudo showing sides covered, this is because it was such a famous formation that Romans did not need a description for it and could easily recognize it in the column.
showing the testudo formation of legionaries advancing toward the walls .
The issue is not only the sides covered, Romans did use different testudos according to the needs, sometimes sides were covered sometimes not , the most Iconic version is the "Ossidional Testudo " wich is the one used in slow movement foward during siege or approaching hevily fortified areas under fire, then there was the more agile one and quickly asembled that resembled like the one posted in wikipedia, there are fonts even in Livy and its a formation deeply rooted in ancient warfare , even gauls and germans did use primitive and less organized forms wich can be considered shield rising advancing ...
the font quoted by Jack Listed is wrongly called to dimonstrate how CA version is historically correct , because its description is totally different from What CA has portrayed ingame ... and it doesn't specify that the sides are not covered , it just describes quickly the formation taken .
Lets not forget also that the ancient authors had access to the military manuals that are now lost .
But the issue here is that the whole CA testudo is completely Broken and Unrealistic and actually False .
It is based solely on the lazyness of making a proper ad Hoc animation for it and instead relied on the reuse of the already common shield rise animation
here the cloned animation:
( wrong even by human standards ... try to keep the shield inthat position for long period of time and stay in formation!)
Here the other flaws of the CA version :
Oh and for the ones wondering that's the other testudo referred by Jack Lusted ....
Wich is not a Testudo but a Triara tipical knee formation , call it shieldwall or anticavalry or whatever, anyway is not the same but it can be assimilated to a testudo if it covers the whole unit .
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-r0Wn4DJTVZ...war-rome-2.jpg
and anyway I have no complains about it ... what I complain is the actual attacking testudo , so called by them ... it should be the ossidional testudo the one I am referring to the all sides covered and Siege ready arrow proof ... the more agile one just differed by having eventually a side uncovered but quite similar , in all cases the one of CA looks wrong and bad by all aspects as the Picture above proves and shows !!!
If there is something that I really expected to be correct and really cared from CA when making a Rome game is. Correct. And historically precise testudo formation , such an iconic formation that you cannot make a mistake unless wanted !
A more detailed description of it is given by Cassius Dio...
Book 4930 1 This testudo and the way in which it is formed are as follows. The baggage animals, the light-armed troops, and the cavalry are placed in the centre of the army. The heavy-armed troops who use the oblong, curved, and cylindrical shields are drawn up around the outside, making a rectangular figure; and, facing outward and holding their arms at the ready, they enclose the rest. 2 The others, who have flat p403shields, form a compact body in the centre and raise their shields over the heads of all the others, so that nothing but shields can be seen in every part of the formation alike and all the men by the density of the formation are under shelter from missiles. 3 Indeed, it is so marvellously strong that men can walk upon it, and whenever they come to a narrow ravine, even horses and vehicles can be driven over it. Such is the plan of this formation, and for this reason it has received the name testudo,8 with reference both to its strength and to the excellent shelter it affords. 4 They use it in two ways: either they approach some fort to assault it, often even enabling men to scale the very walls, or sometimes, when they are surrounded by archers, they all crouch together — even the horses being taught to kneel or lie down — and thereby cause the foe to think that they are exhausted; then, when the enemy draws near, they suddenly rise and throw them into consternation.
31 1 The testudo, then, is the kind of device just described. As for Antony, he suffered no further harm from the enemy, but underwent severe hardships by reason of the cold; for it was now winter, and the mountainous districts of Armenia, through which the only route led, — and he was glad enough to take it, — are never free from ice. His soldiers' wounds, which were many, there caused them the greatest distress. 2 So many kept perishing and so many were rendered unfit for fighting that he would
Cassius Dio
(Polybius 28.11)The capture of Heracleum was effected in a very peculiar manner. The city wall at one part and for a short distance was low. The Romans attacked with three picked maniples: and the first made a protection for their heads by locking their shields together over them so closely, that they presented the appearance of a sloping tiled roof. . . .
This manœuvre the Romans used also in mock fights. . . .
Testudo used to climb walls:
Livy 44.9Amongst other exhibitions, bodies of youths, numbering generally about sixty, but larger in the more elaborate games, were introduced fully armed. To some extent they represented the maneuvers of an army, but their movements were more skilful and resembled more nearly the combat of gladiators. After going through various evolutions, they formed a solid square with their shields held over their heads, touching one another; those in the front rank standing erect; those in the second slightly stooping; those in the third and fourth bending lower and lower; whilst those in the rear rank rested on their knees. In this way they formed a testudo, which sloped like the roof of a house. From a distance of fifty feet two fully armed men ran forward and, pretending to threaten one another, went from the lowest to the highest part of the testudo over the closely locked shields; at one moment assuming an attitude of defiance on the very edge, and then rushing at one another in the middle of it just as though they were jumping about on solid ground.
A testudo formed in this way was brought up against the lowest part of the wall. When the soldiers who were mounted on it came close up to the wall they were at the same height as the defenders, and when these were driven off, the soldiers of two companies climbed over into the city. The only difference was that the front rank and the files did not raise their shields above their heads for fear of exposing themselves; they held them in front as in battle. Thus they were not hit by the missiles from the walls, and those which were hurled on the testudo rolled off harmlessly to the ground like a shower of rain from the roof of a house.
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...ed=0CFcQ6AEwCA
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...ed=0CF0Q6AEwCQ
This is how it was done in RTWI
wich is mostly right showing the ossidional testudo
here a group of reenactors
The testudo was used both defensively immoble and both mobile for attacking , it was a reknown formation used in sieges.
There are also siege machinery called Testudo from the same greek word χελώνη as a generic term for all kinds of movable roofs used to protect men or engines. first mention of it in Xen.Hell.3.1.7 .From the siege enginery and from the look of a turtle this naming was then also adapted to the covering made by a close body of soldiers, The description is clear and impossible to misunderstand unless willing to do such.
The outside ranks , in origins semicylindrical shaped shields (clipei, ἀσπίδες) in front and the others placing their flat shields (scuta, θυρεοὶ) over their heads to secure themselves against the darts of the enemy.The shields fitted so closely together as to present one unbroken surface without any insterstices between them, and were also so firm that men could walk upon them, and even horses and chariots be driven over them( Cassius Dio 49.30).
That testudo was done either in battle to ward off arrows ( Livisu 10.29, 6, 12;Caesar Bell. Gall. 1.24) or, which was more frequently the case, to form a protection to the soldiers when they advanced to the walls or gates of a town for the purpose of attacking them (Cassius D l.c.; Liv. 10.43; 31.39, 14; 34.39, 6;--Caes. Gal. 2.6; Sal. Jug. 94; Tacitus Ann. 13.39; Hist. 3.27, 31. ).
Sometimes the shields were disposed in such a way as to make the testudo slope Fastigata testudo (Plb. 28.12). The advantages of this plan were obvious: the stones and missiles thrown upon: the shields rolled off them like water from a roof; besides which, other soldiers frequently advanced upon them to attack the enemy upon the walls. The Romans were accustomed to form this kind of testudo, as an exercise, in the games of the Circus (Liv. 44.9; Plb. 28.12).
This was such a well known formation that usually historians just needed to name it rather than describing it and a clear depiction of it is showed on the Trajan Column.
This depiction despite might considered artistic in general , it is a very clear Iconic recall and because of that any Roman looking at it would have imediatly recognized .
It clearly shows three main features:
1 Interlocked shields
2 Sides covered
3 mobile advance
All of those descriptions of Testudo , all of those historical references were simply ignored by CA possibly for purpouse of for unknowledge but the result is that is then affirmed by one of them that their depiction is correct because it has sides uncovered . Not knowing instat that most of the desriptions either fly over the description detailed of the sides beeing or not covered or actually describe the testudo as beeing protected from "All Sides" wich paired with the Trajan visual description" gives a total clear idea of how the Siege ossidional testudo looked like .It might have also have sides uncovered but following logic this would happen if flanks would be secured and arrow fire from sides was averted.
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and lastly please explain me how on Earth was that general portrayed as a Meroitic / Sudanese warrior in Roman suit be the representation of a Roman General anything realistic???
check the different box showing the diffeent skin color , Roman on left and samnite on right!
Or why half of the population of the roman youths are portrayed as Bald ? while on countrary none of the germans / Iceni etc is? Now some people might call it nitpicking , I am calling it bias.
Romans <----> Iceni
Originally Posted by Jack Lusted
