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Thread: really hope pike phalanxes arn't as op as they were in rome 1

  1. #21
    Arcathius of Pontus's Avatar Princeps
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    Default Re: really hope pike phalanxes arn't as op as they were in rome 1

    Phalanx were really OP in Rome 1. for example; Sacred Band of Carthage can easily take Urban Cohort of Rome. I don't even speak about Spartan "immortal" Hoplites.

  2. #22
    blace's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: really hope pike phalanxes arn't as op as they were in rome 1

    sorry double post about the shields

  3. #23
    Sagittarius
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    Default Re: really hope pike phalanxes arn't as op as they were in rome 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Tartleton View Post
    Well let's think about this:

    A Macedonian syntagma is a unit of 256 men arrayed 16x16 or 32x8 armed with pikes and swords.

    A Roman maniple is 120 men arrayed 40x3 armed with javelins, shields, and swords.

    Phalanxes fail when the ground is broken, that is to say when the battlefield makes it impossible for units to stay aligned properly (which is why Napoleonic infantry usually attacked in column and masse, not in line). Given how large a unit 256 men is, under a hail of javelins, and other missiles crowd psychology will cause trouble if they aren't veteran or well lead. Phalanxes will ball up, becoming increasingly tight and ineffective until the inner men suffocate from the pressure and the other men lose their ability to fight coherently. At which point the Romans or similar forces use their shields and swords to get through the disarrayed pikes and into hand to hand.
    Good theory but as I pointed out on another thread if the pike units were well trained and well lead the terrain was not as disadvantageous. Even in the battles where Romans did lead Macedonian units onto rough terrain to defeat them the Romans were still defeated on open ground. In every encounter with the phalanx the Romans were extremely cautious because they probably read about Alexander and how good a phalanx could perform if well lead/trained.

  4. #24
    Col. Tartleton's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: really hope pike phalanxes arn't as op as they were in rome 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan113112 View Post
    Good theory but as I pointed out on another thread if the pike units were well trained and well lead the terrain was not as disadvantageous. Even in the battles where Romans did lead Macedonian units onto rough terrain to defeat them the Romans were still defeated on open ground. In every encounter with the phalanx the Romans were extremely cautious because they probably read about Alexander and how good a phalanx could perform if well lead/trained.
    Yeah, if you're fighting Pezhetairoi they will never be defeated from the front. If you're fighting third rate diadochi sarissa militia, things are going to be a comedy of errors.

    In the Renaissance compare Swiss pikes to French pikes. Which is why you never hear about French pikes, they were complete .
    "America sees the absurdities—she sees the kingdoms of Europe, disturbed by wrangling sectaries, or their commerce, population and improvements of every kind cramped and retarded, because the human mind like the body is fettered 'and bound fast by the chords of policy and superstition': She laughs at their folly and shuns their errors: She founds her empire upon the idea of universal toleration: She admits all religions into her bosom; She secures the sacred rights of every individual; and (astonishing absurdity to Europeans!) she sees a thousand discordant opinions live in the strictest harmony ... it will finally raise her to a pitch of greatness and lustre, before which the glory of ancient Greece and Rome shall dwindle to a point, and the splendor of modern Empires fade into obscurity." - Noah Webster, Lexicographer

  5. #25
    blace's Avatar Tiro
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    The Romans used short swords and Gauls and Germans used longer swords which were at a disadvantage in close combat. They should still show pretty good resistance when facing Romans, though.
    to be honest i dont think celtic swords where anywhere near as disadvantages as roman sources make them out to be. swords of that length seemed to do fine in close ranked viking style shieldwall combat. and really that arn't that much longer. some examples go up to 1 meter in length but the average is about 85cm which isn't that much bigger than a gladius. infact the best preserved iron age celtic sword, the kirkburn sword is only 71cm in lenght which is on par with a gladius. most likely the longer swords were more for cavalry and chariot based combat similar to how roman cavalry swords are longer than infantry swords

    although im sure it was up to the particular warriors preference rather than that of an enforced standard
    Last edited by Daily; August 19, 2013 at 10:15 AM.

  6. #26
    Sagittarius
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    Default Re: really hope pike phalanxes arn't as op as they were in rome 1

    Quote Originally Posted by blace View Post
    to be honest i dont think celtic swords where anywhere near as disadvantages as roman sources make them out to be. swords of that length seemed to do fine in close ranked viking style shieldwall combat. and really that arn't that much longer. some examples go up to 1 meter in length but the average is about 85cm which isn't that much bigger than a gladius. infact the best preserved iron age celtic sword, the kirkburn sword is only 71cm in lenght which is on par with a gladius. most likely the longer swords were more for cavalry and chariot based combat similar to how roman cavalry swords are longer than infantry swords
    Vikings also had spears and axes as well as swords. Swords were usually used after the shieldwall broke or they were charging a routed enemy. Long swords are extremely hard to move in close combat. Even short swords can be cumbersome at times. Look at Cannae once the Romans were boxed in.

    Swords could be used a similar manner to this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64qDtI5JDqo
    Last edited by Dan113112; August 19, 2013 at 06:32 AM.

  7. #27
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    Default Re: really hope pike phalanxes arn't as op as they were in rome 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Tartleton View Post
    Yeah, if you're fighting Pezhetairoi they will never be defeated from the front. If you're fighting third rate diadochi sarissa militia, things are going to be a comedy of errors.

    In the Renaissance compare Swiss pikes to French pikes. Which is why you never hear about French pikes, they were complete .
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  8. #28
    O X I R's Avatar Shashu
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    Default Re: really hope pike phalanxes arn't as op as they were in rome 1

    I always force phalanx players to break their line formations. This way they leave a lot of vulnerable spots open for my archers, cavalry and infantry. Divide and conquer! Even with barbarian factions.


  9. #29
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    Default Re: really hope pike phalanxes arn't as op as they were in rome 1

    I can also remember some problems with the phalanx in RTW 1, but they should be careful not to change the things they got right.
    The first problem was with the AI, especially in sieges. One could set up a phalanx in an inverse wedge at a breach in the wall and the AI would send his whole army into the meatgrinder.

    Secondly, I always found it odd that the Germanic basic infantry used the phalanx and because phalanxes in general were extremely effective head on, they were overpowered against anything other than another phalanx. Seriously, why give this formation to the faction famous for living in dense forest?

    Like most people on these forums, I am not an expert and have no real experience of what it is like fighting with and against a phalanx (I still can't get my head around how anyone could fight effectively with such a long pole) but my gut instinct is that they were a little too good in RTW 1 since from what I remember the units usually didn't suffer any attrition at all! However any change would requite the scalpel rather than the sledge hammer.

    By now I am thinking the game is more or less done and it is too late for change so lets see what we are given!

  10. #30
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    Default Re: really hope pike phalanxes arn't as op as they were in rome 1

    Quote Originally Posted by blace View Post
    unless of course you think those big full body shields were just for decoration because we all know that barbarians were mindless savages who could never concieve of something like using a shield to protect himself and work his way in
    Except the Romans tried that but couldn't get it to work against decent quality pike-phalanxes. In the right hands, that sarissa could punch right through the scutum, so we're told. What is the reason the barbarians should have any more success? More to the point, why don't they just outflank them or use any of the other any-phalanx tactics the Romans used as they took over Greece, none of which involved a head on attack?
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  11. #31
    DogSoldierSPQR's Avatar Princeps Prior
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    Default Re: really hope pike phalanxes arn't as op as they were in rome 1

    For me, the Phalanx wasn't hard to beat...was just annoying as fudge!

    I could flank it, which was the only way I attacked it, but they would just swing those sticks around and start attacking at the rear. The way I countered this is to flank them with light crappy infantry, when they turned their pikes, I attacked with heavy infantry at their newly exposed rear. They will only turn their pikes once. They won't turn them again if they are still engaging the first flankers.

    What annoys me is that they still took a while to kill even in a situation like this. A big thank you to Jack for showing that this is not the case anymore.
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  12. #32
    Col. Tartleton's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: really hope pike phalanxes arn't as op as they were in rome 1

    A phalanx from the front is bested best by a slightly braver phalanx. Someone has to back down first.
    "America sees the absurdities—she sees the kingdoms of Europe, disturbed by wrangling sectaries, or their commerce, population and improvements of every kind cramped and retarded, because the human mind like the body is fettered 'and bound fast by the chords of policy and superstition': She laughs at their folly and shuns their errors: She founds her empire upon the idea of universal toleration: She admits all religions into her bosom; She secures the sacred rights of every individual; and (astonishing absurdity to Europeans!) she sees a thousand discordant opinions live in the strictest harmony ... it will finally raise her to a pitch of greatness and lustre, before which the glory of ancient Greece and Rome shall dwindle to a point, and the splendor of modern Empires fade into obscurity." - Noah Webster, Lexicographer

  13. #33
    Lockcaps's Avatar Princeps Prior
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    Default Re: really hope pike phalanxes arn't as op as they were in rome 1

    The problem i have with phalanxes in Rome 1 is that there's no real way to disrupt them. If you charge a phalanx from behind with cavalry, there are a few possible outcomes:

    1. Phalanx takes heavy damage/routs
    2. -Your- cavalry dies on impact despite them coming from behind, your cavalry then routs, and you're now down 1 unit of cav.
    3. "The sweeper" - this is the most annoying one. You think you've sucessfully broken up the phalanx, but nope - they pick up their pikes again and when they try to get back into formation, their pikes become laser beams and cut down your units as the soldiers carrying them spin around. Kinda difficult to explain but extremely annoying and broken as hell.

    So essentially, the phalanx is OP in Rome because of bugs/glitches.

    Also, phalanx vs phalanx is really wierd in Rome 1. It seems like there's an element of randomness to it - i played against a friend once and we decided to test this out. I picked 1 Royal Pikemen, he picked 1 Silver Shield Pikemen. Now, the Royal Pikemen should win this - not only do they have better stats, they also have much larger shields. We then lined up and at the exact same moment attacked eachother. Out of 6 battles, i won 3 and he won 3. The battles were over in around 10 seconds - that's how long it takes for the "winning" phalanx to kill 70-80% of the opposing phalanx.

  14. #34
    Ariamanesh's Avatar Aquilifer
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    Default Re: really hope pike phalanxes arn't as op as they were in rome 1

    I dont know if it is relate to this thread or not but i say.
    Every body who say that the phalanxes were easy to defeat i should say i think that Bravery or Strength or equipment will not change anything when you confront a massive wall of long spears ready to impale you.The worst thing for you at confrontation with phalanx style units is that you can not decide who is the man you should engage or see who was the man who struck you!!!!
    You just see a massive line of men in close formation and far from your reach and only work that you can do is hide behind your shield(if you have any)or throwing your weapon at them(if you can decide who is your target then in the best case you just can take one of them)and still they stand before you and will not let you pass through.
    And you will be pushed hard by the rear lines to advance(because they can not see what the mess you dropped at) and at this very moment you just think that your time has come
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  15. #35
    BunnyPoopCereal's Avatar Pili Prior
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    Default Re: really hope pike phalanxes arn't as op as they were in rome 1

    Quote Originally Posted by blace View Post
    well what ca has said so far is encouraging, that they will stop them for a while but eventually they will get through. i just hope that they dont go back on that idea because of people on the forum whining that they should be invincible from the front which would ruin the game in my opinion
    So they'll hold out for about six seconds. Then they break through at 7 seconds and the entire unit is decimated in 12 seconds. 2 minute games yay fun.

  16. #36
    Demetrios of Messene's Avatar Centurio
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    Default Re: really hope pike phalanxes arn't as op as they were in rome 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Caesar The Lion View Post
    Sacred Band of Carthage can easily take Urban Cohort of Rome.
    Wrong.

    I don't even speak about Spartan "immortal" Hoplites.
    Wrong again.

    No need to argue, just playtest for yourself some 1 unit battles in multiplayer or vs the AI in normal difficulty.


    To the OP: It is best if you specify whether you are talking about single player or multiplayer, these are two different worlds. In R:TW the focus was on Rome. Every other faction was really underpowered one way or the other, the "barbarians" much more notably so, especially in multiplayer.

    From what we've seen already, Rome 2 will be much more balanced and "barbarian" flavoured.
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  17. #37
    111289's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: really hope pike phalanxes arn't as op as they were in rome 1

    Quote Originally Posted by He111 View Post
    Well to be honest, Phalanx maybe hard to beat on the Front, but they break as easily from the Side7Bakc as every other Infantry, flank them - charge them - see them run.
    A Sarissa Formation is meant to be "Op" from the front, sure in Rome I you could easily turn them 180° in one Second, but Ca already said it will take notable longer.
    A 180 will be fast in rome 2 actually. The ''J'' key I believe makes your units turn around but anything other than that they should raise their spears and be vunerable for some time.

  18. #38
    Smiling Hetairoi's Avatar Aquilifer
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    Default Re: really hope pike phalanxes arn't as op as they were in rome 1

    Gotta love people complaining about the vanilla phalanx. Try playing against phalanx armies on hard in Roma Surrectum II.

  19. #39
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    Default Re: really hope pike phalanxes arn't as op as they were in rome 1

    Quote Originally Posted by BunnyPoopCereal View Post
    So they'll hold out for about six seconds. Then they break through at 7 seconds and the entire unit is decimated in 12 seconds. 2 minute games yay fun.
    Is it seriously that hard to watch a video? Just watch it.

    Anyone who watches the video can tell you that CA showed a levy(weakest unit in the game) as a demonstration so clearly they would have low stats and wouldn't last long in a fight if they get flanked or go against an actual elite unit. Not to mention the whole thing was sped up because not everyone is going to be interested in watching a 10 minute pushing match.

    Why is that so hard to understand?

    We've seen elite hoplite units hold out longer than 5 - 10 minutes against Roman legions so why should the Phalanx be any different?

    In any case though we've seen Pikes get beaten when attacked in the rear which is how it happened anyways. The Pike's main weakeness was it's inflexbility.

    If you got issues with people forming pike circles then do what the English did to the Scottish, use archers.
    Last edited by nameless; August 19, 2013 at 10:21 AM.

  20. #40
    davieholgate's Avatar Signifer
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    Default Re: really hope pike phalanxes arn't as op as they were in rome 1

    One Thing: Ranged Units.

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