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Thread: Austria wins the Austro-Prussian war

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    Default Austria wins the Austro-Prussian war

    What if the Austrian army reforms itself and France intervenes in the Austro-Prussian war, Austria wins? Would we see other German states annexing territory from Prussia? Can we see a German nation with a Habsburg as its leader?
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    ImperialAquila's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: Austria wins the Austro-Prussian war

    Germany would be probably a huge nation if this happened and yes, we might have a Hapsburg Germany. Also, there's a possibility that Prussia might be reduced to it's core territories. Depending on the treaty.

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    KEA's Avatar Hastatas Prior
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    Default Re: Austria wins the Austro-Prussian war

    The Austro-Prussian War (or German War), despite being rather obscure to most people, indeed was a key conflict in Modern History: without the Prussian victory there would have been no Prussian dominated Germany, no French-German War of 1870/71, and no German unification in the foreseeable future. Austria had no deeper interest in it and neither the means too; and no other German petty state would have became strong enough to forge a new empire without/against Austria.

    No united Germany in 1871 also means no World War I in 1914, means no World War II in 1939, no Cold War, and so on...

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    Default Re: Austria wins the Austro-Prussian war

    World War I might still happen though. Just not in the way it happened in RL. Same goes for World War II. As for the Cold War, the Russian Revolution might still happen and thereby giving birth to the Soviets still triggering the Cold War.

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    Default Re: Austria wins the Austro-Prussian war

    I'm thinking status quo, with the Hapsburg Emperor being the leader of the German Confederation still.

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    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Praefectus Legionis
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    Default Re: Austria wins the Austro-Prussian war

    Exactly, Imperial. Plus I dont think the prussian war effects the Japanese and their war on China... so there you can still have a world war 2. Plus the great depression can still trigger a rise of Nationalism in Germany or another nation similarly effected.

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    ShockBlast's Avatar Equites Cohortales
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    Default Re: Austria wins the Austro-Prussian war

    Quote Originally Posted by KEA View Post
    The Austro-Prussian War (or German War), despite being rather obscure to most people, indeed was a key conflict in Modern History: without the Prussian victory there would have been no Prussian dominated Germany, no French-German War of 1870/71, and no German unification in the foreseeable future. Austria had no deeper interest in it and neither the means too; and no other German petty state would have became strong enough to forge a new empire without/against Austria.

    No united Germany in 1871 also means no World War I in 1914, means no World War II in 1939, no Cold War, and so on...
    So you are one of those people who think that Germany is responsible for the world wars?

    Let`s say you are right.Are you so sure that a world war wouldn`t happen if there was no Germany?


    As for the Austria winning the German - German War I can say it can go in two ways - German nationalism rises so far that Austria unifies almost all Germany with or without Prussia or Austria doesn`t unify Germany.


    I for one think that the right German state did the union, Prussia was a modern disciplined state full of energy.Prussia should have allied with Russia and Italy and dismantle Austria and get it`s hands on Czechia and Austria.



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    KEA's Avatar Hastatas Prior
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    Default Re: Austria wins the Austro-Prussian war

    Quote Originally Posted by ShockBlast View Post
    So you are one of those people who think that Germany is responsible for the world wars?

    Let`s say you are right.Are you so sure that a world war wouldn`t happen if there was no Germany?
    Where did I say that Germany was responsible for WWI? But without Germany there would have been no WWI, the same applies to Austria and Russia (the two really responsible for the entire mess). Without Germany Austria would have had no stronger ally to back her up against Russia. A collection of German petty states, of which a large number traditonally had closer ties to France than to Austria, would not have done the trick.

    As for the Austria winning the German - German War I can say it can go in two ways - German nationalism rises so far that Austria unifies almost all Germany with or without Prussia or Austria doesn`t unify Germany.
    rather unlikely. Austria was not interessted in supporting German nationalism; Austria-Hungary as a multi-national empire was by far the strongest of the German states. But reducing it to its German roots would have left it with the status of a petty state, comparable to Hannover, Saxony, Bavaria - or pre-1815 Prussia.

    A Großdeutsche Lösung, that is German unifaction with Austria, would had reduced Austria's non-German posessions to the status of foreign colonies of the new empire, leaving (German-)Austria as an equal partner within the federation of German petty states. Don't forgett that Prussia held nearly all of northern Germany, and that way was by far the strongest German state, allready before 1871.

    ImperialAquila
    World War I might still happen though. Just not in the way it happened in RL. Same goes for World War II. As for the Cold War, the Russian Revolution might still happen and thereby giving birth to the Soviets still triggering the Cold War.
    How could the Russian Revolution happened that way without WWI? The only explanation could be "out of the blue". Even with Russia being communist it doesn't follow that we would had a Cold War because that would have required an US vs. UDSSR hegemony of the world - something extremly unlikely without WWII. And WWII would never had happened had there not been a WWI before.


    MathiasOfAthens
    Plus I dont think the prussian war effects the Japanese and their war on China... so there you can still have a world war 2. Plus the great depression can still trigger a rise of Nationalism in Germany or another nation similarly effected.
    The Japanese-Chinese conflict, and anything else going on in Asia, certainly was important to have the US entering WWII, but can hardly be seen as its trigger.

    German nationalism not was triggered by the Great Depression (why should it? German nationalism, like most nationalisms, was a "we are the greatest"-movement) but by the Napoleonic Wars, and partly by the Revolution of 1848, so it allready was there and needed to be suppressed by Austria.

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    Default Re: Austria wins the Austro-Prussian war

    Quote Originally Posted by RealUkiePatriot View Post
    What if the Austrian army reforms itself
    The Austrian army in Austro-Prussian War was already reformed by following French doctrine and organization, don't know what you mean reform here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by O'Hea View Post
    The only reason why Charlemagne came into this at all is because Hellheaven thought it'd be a fun way to troll some byzantophiles.

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    Condottiere 40K's Avatar Tribunus Laticlavius
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    Default Re: Austria wins the Austro-Prussian war

    General Staff - so that everyone has a place and everyone is in their place.
    Eats, shoots, and leaves.

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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Praefectus Cohortis
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    Default Re: Austria wins the Austro-Prussian war

    Quote Originally Posted by Condottiere 40K View Post
    General Staff - so that everyone has a place and everyone is in their place.
    And so everyone can play banzai charge even better...

    The thing is that Austrian army adopted the column assault French excelled in 1850s, which Austrian military encountered in Italy; what Austrian probably did not realize was that French could pull such tricks mainly because Austrian military in 1850s sucked, hence French could play bayonet on them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by O'Hea View Post
    The only reason why Charlemagne came into this at all is because Hellheaven thought it'd be a fun way to troll some byzantophiles.

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    Condottiere 40K's Avatar Tribunus Laticlavius
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    Default Re: Austria wins the Austro-Prussian war

    Banzai charges are a viable military doctrine, but is inverse to accuracy, rate of fire and training by the opposition,
    Eats, shoots, and leaves.

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    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Praefectus Legionis
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    Default Re: Austria wins the Austro-Prussian war

    Quote Originally Posted by ShockBlast View Post

    I for one think that the right German state did the union, Prussia was a modern disciplined state full of energy.Prussia should have allied with Russia and Italy and dismantle Austria and get it`s hands on Czechia and Austria.
    Was Prussia the best state? It fell after the first world war? Why? Because it didnt exist long enough to establish monarchial ties? Changing times? It was certainly the strongest nation at the time of the war and Bismark was certainly a great leader but the future of the state was a poor one... lack of talented leaders. Could it have been different with Austria? Idk. Would Austria even unite Germany as a nation? Dont even know that. Maybe they preferred a Strong Austria with a confederation of minor German states as allies.

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    Default Re: Austria wins the Austro-Prussian war

    Quote Originally Posted by money View Post
    I'm thinking status quo, with the Hapsburg Emperor being the leader of the German Confederation still.
    This, or something like this.

    Hapsburgs were not in a postion to push around their own constituent polities (I'm looking at you, Hungary) with any particular effectiveness so they would not be cracking the whip over their historically independent German subordinates (theoretically and emotionally most still looked to the Hapsburgs for vague leadership).

    Perhaps the "many crowns" option (raised more than once) would be possible, where Hungary is relegated to one of several crown dominions along with Italian, Czech, Slav, South German and North German kingdoms-but only if the Hapsburg Kaiser won a great victory to confirm leadership.

    This new GrosseDeustchland stil faces typical Hapsburg problems (German vs non German ethnic aspirations, wide differences in regioinal culture, economy and tech, lack of strong ovr-arching institutions) that IRL Prussia/Second Reich did not face. On the other hand GrosseDeutschland would not face the same natural hostility from France or need to compete for colonies as P/SR did IMHO, so conflict with France would be less likely.

    The Hapsburgs would have to pull of a strong victory to confirm their leadership of Germany as Prussia did, perhaps over France in Italy but maybe over Russia to take more of Poland (not over the Ottomans though, not enough VP's in the Balkans to earn the "confirm leadership of Germany" perk).

    Any of these actions store up trouble for the future. In any event a strong GD would be pushing into the Balkans and likely Poland to expand, and run into trouble in Italy as well. These are all potential sparks for global war, albeit perhaps a coller one (less likelyhood of England and USA getting pulled in). It might even end with K und k und k und k und k und k und k uber alles!
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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Praefectus Cohortis
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    Default Re: Austria wins the Austro-Prussian war

    Quote Originally Posted by MathiasOfAthens View Post
    It was certainly the strongest nation at the time of the war and Bismark was certainly a great leader but the future of the state was a poor one... lack of talented leaders.
    German Empire's problem was not lack of talented leaders; its problem was glorifying Unification Wars resulted younger generation ignored the price of blood that had been paid, and hence easily went to military solution without thinking what consequence was.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by O'Hea View Post
    The only reason why Charlemagne came into this at all is because Hellheaven thought it'd be a fun way to troll some byzantophiles.

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    Default Re: Austria wins the Austro-Prussian war

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    German Empire's problem was not lack of talented leaders; its problem was glorifying Unification Wars resulted younger generation ignored the price of blood that had been paid, and hence easily went to military solution without thinking what consequence was.
    Indeed. The glorification of von Moltke was such that Bismarck was somewhat eclipsed, and his extraordinary diplomatic efforts (in isolating Austria and France) forgotten. His insistence on almost no territorial gain was brushed aside in 1871, ensuring a revanchist France stood ready (for 43 years in the event, but inevitably nonetheless) for the next war.


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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Praefectus Cohortis
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    Default Re: Austria wins the Austro-Prussian war

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    ensuring a revanchist France stood ready (for 43 years in the event, but inevitably nonetheless) for the next war.
    Technically the Alsace-Lorraine was a minor issue by the time of WWI; the French generation of WWI beared no negative feeling regarding the lost of Alsace-Lorraine, many actually even thought it was fine since that region was dominated by German culture which was different than French culture (even today). Only the old French generals of Joffre's generation would hold some feelings towards Alsace-Lorraine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by O'Hea View Post
    The only reason why Charlemagne came into this at all is because Hellheaven thought it'd be a fun way to troll some byzantophiles.

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    Default Re: Austria wins the Austro-Prussian war

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    Technically the Alsace-Lorraine was a minor issue by the time of WWI; the French generation of WWI beared no negative feeling regarding the lost of Alsace-Lorraine, many actually even thought it was fine since that region was dominated by German culture which was different than French culture (even today). Only the old French generals of Joffre's generation would hold some feelings towards Alsace-Lorraine.
    I think revanchism still played, both as a war aim but also part of the broader enmity between France and the Germanies. It was not just the old generals in the French army who did not forget, the length of the French memory was revealed in the signing of the armitice in the same carriage at Sedan as Napoleon III used. Returning Alsace and Lorriane was a non-negotiable war aim IMHO and while it was no longer fresh, it was definitely a fixture in the French mental kitbag of issues with Germany.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

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    ImperialAquila's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: Austria wins the Austro-Prussian war

    Quote Originally Posted by KEA View Post
    How could the Russian Revolution happened that way without WWI? The only explanation could be "out of the blue". Even with Russia being communist it doesn't follow that we would had a Cold War because that would have required an US vs. UDSSR hegemony of the world - something extremly unlikely without WWII. And WWII would never had happened had there not been a WWI before.
    But how can you be so sure that WWI or II wouldn't happen. As I have stated before, the things that happened in RL wouldn't have happened the way it would in an alternate history. Take the tensions between the nations before the spark was ignited for example. Even without a unified Germany, are you so certain that Austria won't declare war on Russian supported Serbia? There is still Prussia to the north that might be willing to support the Austrian cause with motivation and proper diplomacy. The chain of events would then trigger as it did in RL with France backing Russia, the Brits backing the French. The course might be different but the outcome would still be the same. The loser gives in to the victor's demands triggering widespread revanchism in the said nation that might give birth to the second world war. Not to mention that Europe wasn't the only possible theatre of war. Elsewhere relations between nations were getting worse. There's stuff going on in Asia with Imperialistic Japan.

    As to the question of the Russian Revolution, the start of the Great War wasn't the only cause for grievances within the Russian populace. In an alternate history, anything is possible.

    The Cold War might still happen depending on the course the so-called alternate history would follow. Different nations with Great Power status would be more than happy to fill that gap.

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    Condottiere 40K's Avatar Tribunus Laticlavius
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    Default Re: Austria wins the Austro-Prussian war

    Competing interests cause tensions. Britain expanded overseas, but most European countries still believed that borders could be readjusted in their favour, with the Balkans the region in Europe that that might be possible with minimal risk.
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