Positive analysis of unique city screens

[GussieFinkNottle]

The cities demonstrated to us are unparalleled in accuracy over previous titles, and CA has done a thorough research job while blending accuracy with game features, adding more space in squares and roads and scaling down the total size slightly. It is a good blend of history and playability.

I thought, in the light of some unnecessarily harsh criticism of CA's 5 unique cities, I would make a thread to identify historical features and buildings in them, provide some info and links on these, and show some of the impressively accurate things CA has included. This is also intended to combat the flak that CA has received over their depiction of ancient cities, and to create a positive thread to act as counterpart to this criticism thread: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...han-previously

First up, Rome (I will post the others later, one by one)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Rome in the screen released is in its largest form, a representation of the 2nd-century imperial Rome (or possibly 3rd-century), including the Pantheon (built by Emperor Hadrian), the Colosseum (built by Emperor Vespasian), the Aqua Claudia (counterintuitively built by Emperor Caligula) and the Circus Maximus (built by Emperor Trajan). Thanks to their heavily fortified appearance, the walls visible are probably those built by Emperor Aurelian.
Nonetheless, there is no Flavian or Augustine palace on the Palatine above the Circus Maximus, suggesting you can reach this stage of development but stay as a republic. Remember, while they could make Rome a modest city with few impressive buildings as a republic, I doubt they could have done this and not had gamers object. There is an ideal of Rome, it was the imperial Rome, but it is how the city is perceived, it is breathtaking, and it was in Rome 1 in a less impressively researched form):

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To help with orientation, here is a map of the key features in Rome, the camera view is from just below the Colosseum (the small oval right in the middle), pointing left:

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Edit: the view is actually wider than this, by means of distorting the picture you can see the baths of Caracalla too (labelled Piscina Publica at the bottom of the pic above)

And here is a map detailing the hills of Rome:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The pantheon is in the area labelled 'Field of Mars' for republican Rome

THE MOST IMPORTANT ONE
Now if I show the screen of Rome with the hills outlined in red and the buildings in blue, you can compare it to the above maps to see how accurate it is. I have also added red arrows to show where you can make out steep rises in topography, and therefore tell where the hills are. It can be hard to spot under all the houses!

Edit: some people couldn't open this pic, so I'm attaching the image too (click to enlarge or better right-click and open image in new tab, then you can zoom)



Some more info on each of the fascinating monuments they have included:

The Pantheon

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Interesting info:
-In its final form built by Emperor Hadrian in 126 AD, it was likely designed by Trajan's favourite architect, Apollodorus of Damascus
-The pantheon's dome was a marvel of engineering, using sophisticated reinforcement rings and arches hidden in the walls to produce a 'honeycomb' structure that could bear the dome's weight. It is still the largest unsupported dome in the world

The Aqua Claudia

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Interesting info:
-47 miles (69km) long, the Aqua Claudia brought water directly to the palatine hill, much of it underground through hillsides or down valleys.
-Work on it was commenced by Emperor Caligula and finished by Claudius
-It reached in some places as many as four layers of arches on top of each other

The Temple of Jupiter Optimus Maximus (also known as the temple of Jupiter Capitolinus)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Interesting info on the temple:
-The most important temple in Rome, the temple of Jupiter crowned the Capitoline Hill
-It was burned down numerous times, so had to be rebuilt by Catulus in 69BC, Emperor Vespasian in 75AD and Emperor Domitian in 89 AD,
-Inside were three colossal statues: Jupiter, flanked by his wife Juno, and daughter Minerva

The Colosseum

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There should really be a statue in every arch, but other than this it is an excellent representation of the Flavian Amphitheatre, especially the awning. The scale is pretty good, though the bottom-level arches could be taller, and if it was represented accurately, some of these would be shops, taverns and market stalls.

Interesting info on the Colosseum:
-Built by Emperor Vespasian, he died before its opening, which his son celebrated with 100 days of games, for which several African wild animal species were hunted to extinction
-An estimated three quarters of a million people died in the arena over its total period of use
-The outside of the Colosseum was a marble facade that would have been dazzlingly bright and imposing. Marble seating was also provided for the patricians and senators (who sat at the very front). They were also allowed (shock horror!) to bring their own chairs.
-It was, unlike the Circus Maximus, strictly segregated by social status. Patricians at the front, equestrians next. Above them wealthy citizens like merchants and landowners. Above them normal plebeians and poorer members of society like soldiers, priests and freedmen. Special areas were reserved for boys and their tutors, and foreign dignitaries. At the very top (so they would not be barbarised by the sight of gore) sat the women, as well as the slaves and very poorest citizens.
-Gravediggers, actors and former gladiators were banned

The Aurelian Walls

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The walls represented could be the Servian walls, but are more likely the Aurelian walls, built by Emperor Aurelian, since their level of fortification seems higher and they were built to encompass the extra sprawl of Rome seen in this screen

Interesting info:
They were built as a statement of Rome's might during the crisis of the third century (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisis_..._Third_Century) and would be Rome's primary defence for over one and a half millenia, until 1870!
They defined the limit of the city until the 19th century
These mighty walls were so huge that they could actually not be manned by Rome's 25 000-man garrison. Instead, their sheer size was meant to act as a deterrent to attack

The Circus Maximus

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The Circus Maximus lies directly between the Aventine and Palatine hills

-Among the greatest stadiums ever built, the Circus Maximus was 621m long (over 2000 feet) and could house 150-200 000 spectators
-Trajan had it constructed to replace earlier wooden structures
-As well as chariot racing, it did occasionally feature gladiator fights, festivals, parades and other entertainment

[GussieFinkNottle]

It's time for Athens! Read as much or as little as you like, it's laid out so you can pick and choose

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When talking about the depiction of the acropolis, this illustration may help to get a better idea of its layout:

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Here is the screenshot of Athens with Geographical features in Red, Architectural features in blue and the harbour in green



CA's Athens is pretty impressive on accuracy, with one exception, which makes sense under the circumstances: Piraeus has been blended with Athens, since they couldn't fit two settlements in Attica, so the port is a part of the City of Athens. The architectural wonder this makes us miss out on is the 'long walls' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Walls) between the two towns. What we see on the battle map is a scaled down version of the city of Athens, from this viewpoint, on the Areopagus hill:


In the light of this picture, you can make out that we are only looking at about 1/5 of the total city (more probably 1/3 on the battle map, since they will have scaled down the suburbs and agora) The city is much bigger than what you can see in the screenshot, so there's lots more space to fight in. What you can see is definitely smaller than the actual Athens, but it is of reasonable size and the Acropolis is a very close approximation of the reality

Now for their depiction of Athenian landmarks!

The Parthenon

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Quite well represented, you can make out some of the famous frieze on the front of the edifice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenon_Frieze). BTW, we really should give that back to the Greeks

This great temple was among the largest in the world (though not as big as the temple of Artemis at Ephesus, so not made a wonder of the world), and included some brilliant aesthetic innovations, like widening the pillars towards the top to give the impression that the pillars are dead straight when looked at from the ground

The Propylaea

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The monumental gateway to the Acropolis, this and the great stair leading up to it both look excellently implemented

Statue of Athena Promachos
This is the one part of the acropolis that is not terribly impressively depicted. This edifice definitely did not stand on a pedestal as tall as the parthenon itself, making it tower over the landscape. At least the statue is there, but like the lighthouse of the Pharos (though it may be a placeholder), they have used a generic model from the Carthage map. The real Athena Promachos would have had a big hoplon shield, and have worn a crested helmet. She is carrying her spear in the screen, but it does not have the famous reflective metallic tip that sailors could spot out at sea. The image below is stylised, she would have had her shield against her leg and her spear by her side, but you get the idea

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Aglaureion and Arrephorion

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The Aglaureion was a small shrine to Aglauros on the side of the Acropolis
The Arrephorion housed the girls that made the special robe (peplos) which would be used to dress the cult statue of Athena on festival days
Odeon of Herodes Atticus

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The smaller of the Athens Acropolis' two theatres (the other being the great theatre of Dionysus), this was built in 161 AD under the Roman empire, where Roman-style mimes and bawdy comedies were performed, the more high-minded tragedies having fallen out of favour
The depiction in Rome 2 does look a little on the small side, and could be further entrenched into the hill, but it's not bad at all

Erechtheion

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This famous temple (thanks to its female columns - open the spoiler) is devoted to both Athena and Poseidon, the Gods who supposedly quarrelled over who would be patron of Athens. Poseidon's gift, the salt water well, and Athena's, the sacred olive tree, were housed within the limits of this temple

Areopagus -'Hill of Ares'

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This rock was the site of the high court (supreme court, if you will) of Athens, where appeals could be made and matters of serious law were settled. Murder and treason trials would take place here - it is named after Ares who was supposedly tried here for murder.

Temple of Athena Nike

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The first Ionic temple on the Acropolis, it was built celebrating victory over the Persians and had a frieze depicting the Athenians doing so. It was likewise worshipped at in hope of victory over the Spartans in the Peloponnessian war. It was built on a precarious promontory at the edge of the acropolis

[GussieFinkNottle]

Here's Carthage! Like all the others, dip in and out as you please

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Carthage has been slightly reduced in size and the density of trees and houses has been reduced since the pre-alpha Battle of Carthage demo. If I may borrow CanOmer's pic that demonstrates this:

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As you can see a lot of city to the right of the harbour is now gone, or outside the walls. The suburb in the top right has been made much smaller and had its monument removed, and the surrounding countryside is less detailed. A tower has been removed, as have lots of houses and trees. Byrsa hill also looks less steep. There could be any number of reasons for this, and doubtless they have had to balance the map for both performance and pathfinding. We can only hope that the new screenshot is of an earlier Carthage that can expand to be as big as the Carthage in the siege historical battle


Before I detail the city, as usual here is a plan to help with the geography:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

You may notice there are three layers of city walls. This was a feature of the defences of Carthage that couldn't be implemented in the game, but was fascinating nonetheless due to its complexity. The walls were three-tiered, and served as an enormous barracks and stables as well as a defensive feature. The bottom layer housed 300 Elephants, their handlers and all the supplies they needed. The middle tier stabled 4000 horses and contained room for the 4000 cavalrymen who rode them. The top layer had barracks for 20 000 infantry. Such defenses were then layered, one behind each other, with protective ditches as added defence:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

If this had been in the siege of Carthage, it would have been unassailable and the battle would be unplayable, but it is an interesting part of history to look at nonetheless


Here is the picture of Carthage with buildings in blue, terrain in red and water features in green, as above:



or for those who want it in an attachment:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Now the examination of historical locations CA has included:

Tophet and potential child sacrifice

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The Tophet was a graveyard within the city walls, (unusually because usually for public health they had to be outside), containing the bodies of children under the age of 5. These are commonly found near Phoenician settlements and the Romans alleged the Carthaginians practiced child sacrifice, as did other neighbours to the Carthaginians. The Romans had outlawed human sacrifice as barbaric, and hadn't carried it out since the early 4th Century BC, thus providing an opportunity to look down on the Carthaginians (not unlike the way the British outlawed slavery in the 19th century and then immediately proceeded to police the triangular trade route and hold all slave trading nations in contempt, despite the earlier trading of slaves by Great Britain).
Many bodies of children have been found with no sign of illness whose bones were cremated, further evidence in favour of sacrifice, and there are some Carthaginian votive offerings depicting children being carried (possibly to sacrifice). In the Carthaginians' defence, no reference to child sacrifice at all is found in Carthaginian writings, and this was an era when infant mortality was very high, with half of people not making it to their 5th birthday. There is some debate over whether this practice is correctly attributed

The Cothon (artificial harbours)

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CA has created a fairly accurate depiction of the harbours, though they added too much land to the sea facing side (right hand side in the pic above). This should just be a sea wall and then the water. Their decision not to do so makes sense in that it gives another route to attack from the sea in a combined battle. It is also understandably scaled down in size: the original could hold hundreds of merchant vessels, as well as a war fleet
Satisfyingly, they did place a lighthouse at the entrance like in Ancient Carthage (out of shot here).

These ports were exceptionally taxing to make, carving out an artificial harbour that could then be inside the city walls, but it was an excellent defensive feature, and ensured the city had access to the sea as well as safety for its ships
Under later Roman rule, due to damage sustained, the harbours would be disconnected from each other and new, easier passages to the sea created (forgive the bizarre spelling):

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Thus today, the Carthaginian Cothon remains broken:

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-Commercial harbour

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This made Carthage one of the wealthiest cities in the Mediterranean, in a position ideally suited to trade, with capacity for (and tariffs on) a huge tonnage of shipping

-Military harbour

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CA's depiction gets the round warship dockyards to a T, but the central structure appears to be a bit too built up. I cannot find a single depiction which has as tall a central tower as the one in CA's Carthage. It would appear they are channelling Rome 1's awesome temple of Baal :

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This massive structure could hold 220 warships (one of the largest fleets in the Mediterranean, second only to Athens' 'wall of wood'). Naval might was one way Carthage could offset its relatively small manpower.

Byrsa Hill and the citadel

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Inside the second layer of fortification was a privileged district on the hill called Byrsa. Outside the fortifications of Byrsa the city of Carthage was divided into 4 residential districts. The Byrsa suburb is so well designed and executed that, dating to the second century BC, it has been nicknamed 'Hannibal district' since it indicates excellent political leadership. It was the stronghold of Carthage and was finally destroyed in Scipio Aemilianus' siege in 146BC. CA's representation accurately dominates the skyline, while maintaining good wide avenues of attack. Byrsa essentially acted as the acropolis for Carthage

Temple of Eshmun
The great temple that crowned Byrsa hill, it was dedicated to Eshmun, a Phoenician god worshipped both in Carthage and the levant. The colossal statue CA has placed next to it may be intended to represent Tanit, the patron goddess of Carthage.The temple was eventually demolished, and on its site today stands the Catholic Cathedral of St. Louis:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The agora
I trust the area I have acknowledged as the agora is as such, aided by this screenshot:

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This area was the financial epicentre of the city that acted as the financial epicentre of the Mediterranean world. The sheer amount of political and commercial bartering that would have taken place here through the ages is mind-boggling.
The depiction in Rome 2 is magnificent: imposing with the central statue (presumably of Ba'al Hammon, male partner to Tanit) a grand area to conduct battles, and a marketplace with stalls included

The Necropolis
Whether or not the Necropolis of Carthage is depicted remains to be seen, however it is worth hearing about nonetheless

The Necropolis of Carthage was enormous, three times the size of the city itself (see walled space above the dividing line on the map):

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BTW, the word 'Byrsa' on this map is too low, it is the ring of walls in the centre of the word Carthage

Elaborate tombs for dynasties were built by rich families, and the extensive nature of the Necropolis at Carthage, extending over the whole promontory, is perhaps comparable to those of Knidos in South-West Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knidos), where the necropolis also ended up 3 times the size of the settlement. The living population of Carthage grew little and was constrained by the walls, so did not expand to take up more territory than the dead

[Lasseman]

Great post
Ever thought about becoming a history teacher? My school could use some replacements

[JankoMega]

Awesome job, mate. Seriously, come to my highschool when the next grade starts up.

[GussieFinkNottle]

Great post
Ever thought about becoming a history teacher? My school could use some replacements

I'm still in sixth form (last year of school) though I do intend to study ancient history when I go to university. After that, who knows?

[VanGoth]

Great thread and an amazing chunk of info, thx^^

[Adamwestisgod]

Great thread. Its threads like these why I come to the forums and search through the muck that is everybody about the game.

[GussieFinkNottle]

Athens added, tell me if you want me to do any other city analysis, to see how accurate the other capitals are (though the one I won't do is Alexandria, because of the 5 unique cities, it is uniquely inaccurate and poorly represented). This poor representation is isolated to Alexandria, the others are extremely impressive and well researched

[StealthFox]

Very nice!!! Thanks for sharing this!!!

[VanGoth]

Carthage Thanks for your time and dedication, its wonderful^^

[GussieFinkNottle]

Carthage Thanks for your time and dedication, its wonderful^^

You're welcome, I'm enjoying this project since I have to research each post. I'll do Carthage next, though I'll have to use some of the pictures from the siege of Carthage and original promo pics, because the recently released photo is so fuzzy

[Eien]

Nicely done, can't say I didn't enjoy reading all that.

[baptistus]

Wow, thank you very much, it is very interesting !

[G-Spike]

excellent work! So much stuff i missed when i looked at it
I would like to see an analysis of the other ones too. Babylon the most. I was walking through the Ischtar Gate at the Pergamon Museum in Berlin, was damn impressive. I didnt spot in on the screenshot but i sure hope they implement it!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Carthage was already analyzed a lot before because we've already seen a lot of it. Even if the analysis of Alexandria would be a bit negative i would still be interested to hear stuff about it. I dont know how the library of Alexandria looks like, but it must be somewhere on the screenshot right?

Also on the screenshot of Alexandria you can see the entire city, maybe leaving less room for imagination. But there are a lot of buildings outside of the city and i would like to know more about them. :/
I was the least impressed with Athens because it seemed so small. The long walls would have been a really interesting feature to implement! just merge piraeus and athens as one big settlement.

[Papay]

I want to play the game so bad

[Aeneas Veneratio]

+rep for all of that! It is very nice to read about the accuracies (and the few inaccuracies) and learn a bit more about these ancient cities at the same time.
Thanks! For a future analysis, I would like to see one for Babylon as I have very little knowledge of that city.

About the size of the cities, it's possible that there is more behind the "camera". We will have to see at release, I suppose.

[neoptolemos]

Well structured posts!!!
Good job

[Julio-Claudian]

"THE MOST IMPORTANT ONE"

The image isn't there. lmao

Great work though

[Terminus Est]

Wow, good job! Interesting read