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Thread: Iron out Total War tech myths

  1. #1
    alQamar's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Iron out Total War tech myths

    Hi all,

    I know it is a controverse topic but a lot people still postulate opinions and even make worthy decisions on them, that might cost money and will not deliver proper results.

    Because of that I deciced to start this discussion thread based on real facts we have at the moment. We cannot expect they will be revolutioned by Rome 2.
    So in this case we do not need to "kill" each other with "game is not yet released" statements. I will not change a lot, even we all hoped for that.

    So let's start to iron out Total War tech myths:


    General hardware myths:

    Myth: If you have an AMD CPU you need to get an AMD (ATI) graphics card for best performance and compatibility, as both are from the same vendor. Also on Intel better go for a NVIDIA not AMD graphics card for the same reason
    Busted! This is a really nighmare myth, as I repetitive hear that for about 15 years now, and it still lives. There is really no truth in it you can mix whatever you want.
    But once more: The AMD processor limitations for TW still exists independently from the fact you pair it with a NVIDIA or AMD graphics card.
    Technically the best pick is Intel with NVIDIA but that has got technological roots not because they pair better.

    Myth: TW runs faster (frames per second) with SSD or more RAM than 4 GB
    Busted! No and again it is a 32bit game.
    While installing TW on a SSD will give it a significant boost in loading times, the additional RAM might only improve loading time performance a little if you have less then 4 GB RAM or a lot of background processes running (laptops are full of preinstalled software, browsers like Chrome needs a lot of RAM as they make multiple instances. Having more than 6 GB do not affect Total War at all.


    Operating system myths:

    Myth: TW runs faster on a 64bit OS than 32bit
    Busted! This is not true, it is a 32 bit game. Any advantages may be because different drivers and the advantages are negible. Anyway if you have 3 GB RAM and a 1 GB graphics card you should uprade to a 64 bit OS like Windows 8 or 7. In some particular cases it may even run faster on a 32 bit OS :/


    Processor myths:


    Myth: TW runs faster on a 5 GHz AMD than a 3,2 GHz Intel
    Busted!No, please refer benchmark results.

    Myth: TW runs faster on a octa core or hexa core instead of a quad core CPU
    Busted! No it does not utilize the additional cores, sorry.

    Myth: TW does not support more than single or dual core CPUs
    Busted! That's wrong, as comparing a SAME quad core and dual core CPU (hardware limitation) you have a gain of more than 20% performance compared to the dual core CPU. TW does utilize quad core CPUs. Please also refer benchmark results.

    Myth: The blood patch DLC is a nice features, that gives you more splatter effects at a little performance cost
    Busted! That's fairly wrong. Accidently we got aware that the blood DLC is not done by the GPU but the processor and impacts a lot in typical a melee / blob. The cost of performance varies from 12-25%.

    Myth: Intel i7 cores are the best effort for Total War and hyperthreading give you an extra boost playing this game.
    Answer: No unfortunately it is even contraproductive and SLOWS Total War, especially if you have a SLI configuration. On the other hand on desktop Intel i3, hyperthreading helps to improve your performance significantly. To avoid these performance issues please read the benchmark thread (optimisation)


    Graphics cards myths:

    Myth: TW runs faster with a graphics card with more than 2 GB RAM
    Busted! More video RAM will not increase your frame rates. Multimonitor is not supported aswell so the game simply do not need more than 2 GB VRAM. There is just one exception: you will need more than 2GB VRAM if you use higher resolution than 1080p or memory intensive antialiasing like SSAA.

    Myth: an SLI / Crossfire will improve my gaming experience and eliminate all lags even in huge battles
    Busted! That's fairly wrong.
    There are two reasons for that:
    1. The problem is an SLI might give you more power in case of high Antialiasing but usually all screens have only 60 Hz, so display 60 frames per second.
    Any more frames above that will cause tearing as the SLI delivers more pictures than the screen can display. Adaptive VSYNC drops the FPS to the monitor speed if needed. In this case you are are literally driving a Porsche in a 15 miles per hour zone .
    2. If you go in a cam close up your CPU will make the pace in terms of FPS and your SLI become completely worthless in Total War as you will enounter lags (low FPS).

    Myth: Monitors with higher refresh rates like 120 or 144 Hz give me a visibly fluent gaming experience and advantage in Total War games.
    Busted! Not at all, they are only useful if you use 3D glasses, then the monitor can display 2 pictures with each 60 frames per second instead of 30 frames per second. However your graphics card must be powerful enough to serve this. Usally you need an SLI to have a constant framerate beyond 100 frames per second in Total War.
    Despite from the 3D use it is physically senseless as a human eye cannot see more than 85 pictures per second (aka Hertz (Hz) aka Frames per second (FPS). Who ever tells you he/she has got a visibly better gaming experience with a FPS higher than 85 FPS must have super powers indeed.


    Myth:
    If I got a 1 GB graphics card and add another one with 1GB VRAM via SLI / Crossfire I can choose higher details as I have then 2 GB VRAM.
    Busted! Honestly I am not experienced with SLI / Crossfire solutions a lot but someone that knows this business confirmed this myth is really wrong
    The additional graphics card will not ADD VRAM to the other but you have then 2 cards sharing 1 GB. So unlike to system RAM you cannot add physically or virtually more VRAM by pairing cards.



    RAM myths:

    Myth: TW runs faster on high OC RAM (above 1600 MHz)
    Busted! This may affect only on AMD plattforms and if the CL timings are same or lower than CL9-9-9, the Intel memory controller has a limitation to 1600 MHz or even lower depending on your particular model.

    Myth: High overclocked RAM gives you a good boost in Total War, so it is worth the price at the end
    Busted! There are 2 sides of the medal, one is gold the other one just looks like gold
    1. High overclocked RAM takes all RAMs that are faster than 1600 MHz which are now standard for DDR3 while we should see 3200 MHz DDR4 RAM in 2014. In fact the memory bandwith is higher at higher clockings but this may be effective only in very memory intensive tasks like video editing or 3D modelling (raytracing etc)
    2. The OC RAM has got a high demand on voltage, while modern DDR3 (DDR3L) RAM only need 1,35 Volts, these RAMs run at the border of compliance at 1,65 volts. This causes heat and costs of course more energy, that you won't notice on your bill anyway aslong you do not run a server farm.

    BUT: The most painful thing is that any RAM above 1600 MHz do not give a respective advantage on Intel CPUs. Maybe different on AMD but I haven't enough data yet.

    Here is an example of that case taken from the TW benchmark thread
    Intel Core i7-4770K, 4,5 GHz, Haswell, 22nm lithography, 84 Watts TDP, DDR3 2666 MHz CL11, Dual Channel: 52 FPS (66% more clocking but only +6% (7.6% unrounded) more performance, not speaking about the price)
    Intel Core i7-4770K, 4,5 GHz, Haswell, 22nm lithography, 84 Watts TDP, DDR3 1666 MHz CL11, Dual Channel: 49 FPS

    Price comparison:
    Corsair Vengeance 2x4 GB 2666 MHz CL11 RAM: 151 € - so they are 2,5 times more expensive for ridiculous +6-8% performance)
    Corsair Vengeance 2x4 GB 1600 MHz CL9 RAM: 60 €, and even yet faster than the tested 1666 CL11


    Sources for the above statements linked below.
    Do you like to find out your personal performance in Rome 2? You need a little time reading, Shogun 2 and a DX11 capable graphics card. If you do not have just compare your CPU (battle engine) performance.
    Check the link out in my signatures. I still search for more partcipants with mid range CPUs, laptops, more SLI and crossfire solutions. Just throw your figures at me (organised as decribed)
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...TW-performance
    Last edited by alQamar; August 23, 2013 at 02:42 AM.
    NEW: Total War Saga: Britannia benchmark thread - last update: 10.05.2018
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    Many of my past contributions in the time from 2011-2017 will contain content that now show broken links. Unfortunately I had to delete all pictures linked on TWC that were hosted on imageshack.us. Read why
    If you are missing anything of interest, please let me know. Sorry for any inconvinience caused.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Iron out TW tech myths

    Did you already got the game to play the Mythbuster?

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  3. #3
    alQamar's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Iron out TW tech myths

    Nope not yet Prometheus is it worth?
    NEW: Total War Saga: Britannia benchmark thread - last update: 10.05.2018
    HOW-TO-step-up-from-MBR-CSM-LEGACY-BOOT-to-UEFI-GPT
    Many of my past contributions in the time from 2011-2017 will contain content that now show broken links. Unfortunately I had to delete all pictures linked on TWC that were hosted on imageshack.us. Read why
    If you are missing anything of interest, please let me know. Sorry for any inconvinience caused.

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    Ballacraine's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Iron out TW tech myths

    Quote Originally Posted by alQamar View Post


    Myth: TW does not support more than single or dual core CPUs
    Answer: That's wrong, as comparing a SAME quad core and dual core CPU (hardware limitation) you have a gain of more than 20% compared to the dual core CPU. TW does utilize quad core CPUs. Please also refer benchmark results.
    As a tech person, perhaps you might be able to tell me, will an AMD 8 core be utilised properly?

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  5. #5
    alQamar's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Iron out TW tech myths

    No it will not. I am sorry for you. This answer was given in the OP as well
    NEW: Total War Saga: Britannia benchmark thread - last update: 10.05.2018
    HOW-TO-step-up-from-MBR-CSM-LEGACY-BOOT-to-UEFI-GPT
    Many of my past contributions in the time from 2011-2017 will contain content that now show broken links. Unfortunately I had to delete all pictures linked on TWC that were hosted on imageshack.us. Read why
    If you are missing anything of interest, please let me know. Sorry for any inconvinience caused.

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    Ballacraine's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Iron out TW tech myths

    I thought not.
    In faecorum semper, solum profundum variat.

  7. #7
    babydoc's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Iron out TW tech myths

    Which graphic cards are overkill for Rome 2?
    I mean are the high priced cards worth it?

  8. #8
    Hattori's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Iron out TW tech myths

    Can we assume all of these will remain the basically the same for Rome 2?

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  9. #9

    Default Re: Iron out TW tech myths

    Quote Originally Posted by babydoc View Post
    Which graphic cards are overkill for Rome 2?
    I mean are the high priced cards worth it?
    High priced GPU are always worth it when developers bother to improve their engine code to match the new hardware and software coming out from nVidia and AMD. If they don't then a expensive GPU will get you a few more frames because of it's raw power but it's not cost effective.
    With Total war since original Shogun, made my life better!
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  10. #10
    Birk's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Iron out TW tech myths

    Quote Originally Posted by babydoc View Post
    Which graphic cards are overkill for Rome 2?
    I mean are the high priced cards worth it?
    Well I had 580, with 770 I've almost doubled my FPS in Shogun 2, I think it will be same case in Rome 2.
    Birk Von Norway

  11. #11
    SamueleD's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Iron out TW tech myths

    Quote Originally Posted by Hattori View Post
    Can we assume all of these will remain the basically the same for Rome 2?
    As it uses the same engine, just updated, yes, pretty much. But we'll see, the greatest performance update in Warscape games came with Shogun 2, probably because of DX11 and a couple of other optimizations, but from Rome II we can only expect some optimizations, but nothing major on the high end side of things.

  12. #12
    Hattori's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Iron out TW tech myths

    Quote Originally Posted by SamueleD View Post
    As it uses the same engine, just updated, yes, pretty much. But we'll see, the greatest performance update in Warscape games came with Shogun 2, probably because of DX11 and a couple of other optimizations, but from Rome II we can only expect some optimizations, but nothing major on the high end side of things.
    Does DX11 significantly improves performance compared to DX9 mode in S2?

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  13. #13
    SamueleD's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Iron out TW tech myths

    Quote Originally Posted by Hattori View Post
    Does DX11 significantly improves performance compared to DX9 mode in S2?
    It allows for more sophisticated effects. I should do some test on whether it improves performance on the graphics side of things (I think it does). But it does improve things on the CPU side: I've edited the Shogun 2 CPU Benchmark to run in DX11 and it gives better results compared to the default DX9, probably because DX11 passes some of the calculations that in DX9 were done by the CPU to the GPU, and since TW is CPU bottlenecked in fights, that helps a lot.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Iron out TW tech myths

    Quote Originally Posted by PROMETHEUS ts View Post
    Did you already got the game to play the Mythbuster?

    You're the perfect guy to say such a thing.

  15. #15
    Lord Dakier's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Iron out TW tech myths

    Saying an 8-core is no better than 4 is not necessarily true. Although the game is only single core the system will utilise as many cores as possible providing it's 64-bit. Imagine tipping water from a bucket into pyramid of glasses if you will. The game is single-core the system can space out the rest.
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  16. #16

    Default Re: Iron out TW tech myths

    A fast GPU and/or SLI/CF will allow you to use the highest quality graphics including supersampling. Sure, if you zoom in your fps tank due to the CPU, but in general you play in both modes: sometimes zoomed in, sometimes not.

  17. #17
    Baldos's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: Iron out TW tech myths

    Quote Originally Posted by alQamar View Post
    Hi all,


    Myth: an SLI / Crossfire will improve my gaming experience and eliminate all lags even in huge battles
    Answer: That's fairly wrong.
    Two reasons for that:
    1. The problem is an SLI might give you more power in case of high Antialiasing but usually all screens have only 60 Hz, so display 60 frames per second.
    Any more frames above that will cause tearing as the SLI delivers more pictures than the screen can display. Adaptive VSYNC drops the FPS to the monitor speed if needed. In this case you are are literally driving a Porsche in a 15 miles per hour zone .
    Check the link out in my signatures. I still search for more partcipants with mid range CPUs, laptops, more SLI and crossfire solutions. Just throw your figures at me (organised as decribed)
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...TW-performance
    I have a GTX 770 OC with a I5-3570K OC to 4.3GHz & 8G Ram. I get 104 + Fps on Shogun 2 DX 11 Bench ...will I benefit from a 144 Hz LCD Screen?

  18. #18
    DogSoldierSPQR's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Iron out TW tech myths

    So wait, what is the max amount of cores Rome 2 will use and how efficiently will it use them?
    I personally invite you to check out my complete combat overhaul which will give you a completely new Rome 2 experience:
    (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ere!-(26-10-13)
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  19. #19
    alQamar's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Iron out TW tech myths

    Quote Originally Posted by Hattori View Post
    Does DX11 significantly improves performance compared to DX9 mode in S2?
    I would like to add something to SamueleD posting

    Even on a low level card DX 11 is better than DX9 or DX 10

    The reason is that the shaders (nothing to do with shadow quality) running more efficient. Means on an entry card or midrange just change to dx11 and shader model 5 or DX 10 (shader model 4.1)
    To get a better performance without changing any other settings.

    Then of course it has a lot of features comparing like soft shadows tessellation more dynamic lightning and ssao but this features of course at cost of performance or at least not possible with entry cards.
    Last edited by alQamar; August 11, 2013 at 11:08 AM.
    NEW: Total War Saga: Britannia benchmark thread - last update: 10.05.2018
    HOW-TO-step-up-from-MBR-CSM-LEGACY-BOOT-to-UEFI-GPT
    Many of my past contributions in the time from 2011-2017 will contain content that now show broken links. Unfortunately I had to delete all pictures linked on TWC that were hosted on imageshack.us. Read why
    If you are missing anything of interest, please let me know. Sorry for any inconvinience caused.

  20. #20
    alQamar's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Iron out TW tech myths

    Quote Originally Posted by nubcaker View Post
    You're the perfect guy to say such a thing.
    Keep calm it was a joke

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Dakier View Post
    Saying an 8-core is no better than 4 is not necessarily true. Although the game is only single core the system will utilise as many cores as possible providing it's 64-bit. Imagine tipping water from a bucket into pyramid of glasses if you will. The game is single-core the system can space out the rest.
    This is, sorry, absolutely nonsense.

    64bit has nothing to do with multicore support. And please read the myths. The game is NOT SINGLE core. Sometimes I wonder if people read OPs
    NEW: Total War Saga: Britannia benchmark thread - last update: 10.05.2018
    HOW-TO-step-up-from-MBR-CSM-LEGACY-BOOT-to-UEFI-GPT
    Many of my past contributions in the time from 2011-2017 will contain content that now show broken links. Unfortunately I had to delete all pictures linked on TWC that were hosted on imageshack.us. Read why
    If you are missing anything of interest, please let me know. Sorry for any inconvinience caused.

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